Dear all, the post of XDAvenger93 really impressed me and convinced that the critical problem is in Exhibit A - research system. Therefore, I tried elaborating an alternative that could possibly settle the issues of research priorities as well as its impact upon politics, colonization and some other burning issues. I hope that this system allows amending the situation without imposing unreal task upon Devs. The legendary post: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21526-the-curios-case-of-the-game-that-played-itself?page=1#thread

Summary:

1) Core game mechanics don't require tech research.

2) Tech costs do not inflate with a total # of researched techs: inflation is localized at separate tech groups within an era.

3) Techs are ideologically balanced. Every ideology has its own expansion and extermination techs (and more) reflecting relevant play styles.

Also

4) Transparent and feasible political manipulations.

5) Star system specializations.

6) Dealing with excessive industry and food production.

7) More reasonable war targets, cooperation and competition.

8) Diplomacy: common history instead of techs. 

Now have a look at the table and let's start. Please keep in mind that all figures and techs are just examples and subject to balancing.

	Expansion	Warfare	Innovations	Production
Pacifist	Planets with Dust focus	Your ships have a significant bonus in fights within your and allied influence zones and a slight malus out of them. A faction that declared war on you suffers from maluses. Mercenaries are stronger	Diplomatic treaties are more efficient; additional trade routes	More dust buildings
Militarist	Expansion disapproval reduction; More favourable ownership dynamics	More efficient blockades and invasions. Bonus while fighting in enemy’s influence zone	Better ground forces; Doomsday weapons (planetary destruction)	Industry cost reduction on ships; Manpower
Scientific	Planets with science focus	Better/new support modules	Higher curiosity level; better probes	More science buildings
Industrial	Planets with industry focus	Reduced strategic resource costs on ships/modules; Temporary bonuses of newly constructed ships; Decreased ship maintenance costs	Enables conversion of Industry into other resources	More industry buildings
Ecologist	Planets with food focus	More speed; Enables manipulating node effects in battle	Dealing with anomalies; Advanced terraforming	More food buildings
Religious	Unique planets efficiency/capacity; Temples	Fleets with Heroes have stronger battle plan bonuses and have additional plans; Hero ships are better; Enables use of special effects by heroes in the battle preparations window (requires dust, influence or sacrificing ships)	Political manipulations; Advanced system conversion; new non-military diplomatic declarations.	More influence buildings; More efficient systems under Hero's governance.

Fundamentals	New ship design More CP Ship weapons and defenses A Ship weapons and defenses B Flights without strings More approval
No research required	Basic mechanics: Diplomatic actions Heroes Trade routes Marketplace System upgrades <…>

Basics.

1) Core mechanics do not need research. Some of them are available at the start, some need achieving a respective Era – or complying with other conditions, accessible by any player. These mechanics are: Diplomatic actions (I will give a suggestion on this topic at the very end), Heroes, Trade routes, Marketplace, system upgrades, etc. The justification is that the game is not fun enough without them but conducting relevant researches means losing the ones you need for either minmaxing or roleplaying a specific build. However, some of these core mechanics might be enhanced via techs (stronger mercenaries, additional trade routes).

2) Moreover, I suggest avoiding “obligatory” OP researches like strategic resource production. You can go without newest hull design (to get a better one in the next era), but the game usually forces you to excavate strategic resources ASAP.

3) Researches are divided into 5 groups: Expansion, Fleet, Innovations, Production, Fundamentals. Each – except Fundamentals - comprises 6 techs per era, reflecting 6 political ideologies with respective impact on Empire politics. Therefore, each era you can pick 0 to 4 techs related to a specific ideology out of 10 (probably more). Nevertheless, it does not mean 40% of political output. For example, 4 pacifist + 2 industrial + 4 Fundamental (politically neutral) means 66% P + 33% I.

4) There is no general science cost inflation. Instead, it is applied separately to each group – again except Fundamentals - within each era. For example, your first research requires 100 S. You get a militarist “Advanced orbital bombardment” research in the Warfare group and then you may initiate a second research in the same group at the cost of 150 S, for example Scientific “Better support modules”, or take any research in the Expansion group for only 100 S because it’s the first one within the group. Please find a detailed table below.

5) Techs are divided into eras. Number of required techs may differ from the current 10, this is a matter of balancing. Each era has its own tech cost count for the groups. A next era tech cost shall be significantly higher than in the previous one (like cost of the 4th tech in a group), but rewards shall be more than respective. You need to unlock N of techs of Era X+2 to step into Era X+3; X+1 Techs are not counted for the transition to Era X+3.

6) Faction techs could be located at Fundamentals or could replace/complement other techs. Such techs could be OP to a reasonable extent if the player sticks to the faction's play style. However, what I see now is that various faction bonuses like techs and their derivatives (buidings, modules, etc) are mainly acquired via quests and that's ok.

Tech cost

A bit about tech Groups

1)  Fundamentals. As said above, they don’t have ideological alignment and have a flat cost dependent on era only. Some of the examples in the table can be split into secondary outcomes of other researches as a means of balancing (like any Production research additionally enables construction of minor approval buildings or any Warfare tech grants a minor boost on CP). These techs have several functions:

 i/ they are relatively OP, but in specific conditions you are still free to deny or suspend them; 

 ii/ they are politically neutral which means you can use them to adjust ideological output; 

maurodelia wrote:

I realy like a lot of ideas here. But the only think that i miss is a space for faction specific techs, otherwise all factions that share the same politics will feel the same

Hi! Thank you for having noticed! I added info on faction techs!

"6) Faction techs could be located at Fundamentals or could replace/complement other techs. Such techs could be OP to a reasonable extent if the player sticks to the faction's play style. However, what I see now is that various faction bonuses like techs and their derivatives (buidings, modules, etc) are mainly acquired via quests and that's ok."

RageMcGeezaks wrote:

Thanks for the productive input. I really like the tech propositions and how you fit them per political 'allignment'. 

Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but I was wondering why you are still holding on to Era's. 

If you take this system and just let the player research higher techs when all the prerequisites are met in that area of specialization.

It would be similar to what is proposed here, but then you can drop the 'fill your basket and become better at everything' Era idea. 

Then we could get back to a proper tech tree ;) 

Thank you for this question. Indeed, the era system has been subject to criticism, but I think that adjusting the tech management basics may make Eras a positive feature. I don't want to eliminate Era system, because:

1) It allows more customization than branches of a tech tree. You may decide to switch to another ideology in mid-game and you are not forced to study primitive technologies. As with a tech tree, in Era system advanced techs are available in time, but here you can pick a more specific set the ones you need.  If in Era 1 you studied something you don't much need any more in Era 4, it is bearable. If you picked a "root" tech and progressed in this direction to a "leaf" tech within a tech tree and then you decide that another "leaf" on another "branch" is what you actually need at this moment, you are doomed to study several techs to reach the needed one.

2) Era system is a way to unlock free game mechanics (trade routes, system upgrades etc.) that should make your mid-game (Era 2+) more interesting. I think that some of these mechanics should not be available from the beginning because (i) they are not something inherent to a newborn space empire (ii) you have (should have) plenty of other things in early game to be occupied with.

3) Era system represents a number of social&scientific paradigm shifts. I personally enjoy a feeling that "now my empire made an immersive leap into a new quality of existence". This is good imho.

4) Deeds will be implemented and they are tied to Eras. And Deeds are much more interesting than their analogues in other games - I mean wonders.

5) In connection with the above said and as an addition to it, replacing Era system with something else will require far too much work by the Devs. I am sure that equal efforts will bring more fruits if they are applied to other issues - including the ones I am describing in the thread. 

lo_fabre wrote:

Sotnik wrote:

 

4) There is no general science cost progression. Instead, it is applied separately to each group – again except Fundamentals. For example, your first research requires 100 S. You get a militarist “Advanced orbital bombardment” research in the Warfare group and then you may initiate a second research in the same group at the cost of 150 S, for example Scientific “Better support modules”, or take any research in the Expansion group for only 100 S because it’s the first one within the group.

Didn't read all tables and small details in your post, but this point can give an alternative to control science inflation (as costs will be stopped at about 3-5 techs per area), while at same time maintaining lore consistence, and favoring each faction gameplay.

I am glad that my vision reflects actual preferences of the community. Thank you for approval. 

It may be not so important, but I just understood that what I propose allows also better planning because the inflation is predictable and, moreover, all the figures could be shown in a pop-up window. I have updated the thread with a tech cost table to be more comprehensible.  

RageMcGeezaks wrote:

Thanks for the productive input. I really like the tech propositions and how you fit them per political 'allignment'. 

Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but I was wondering why you are still holding on to Era's. 

If you take this system and just let the player research higher techs when all the prerequisites are met in that area of specialization.

It would be similar to what is proposed here, but then you can drop the 'fill your basket and become better at everything' Era idea. 

Then we could get back to a proper tech tree ;) 

Thank you for this question. Indeed, the era system has been subject to criticism, but I think that adjusting the tech management basics may make Eras a positive feature. I don't want to eliminate Era system, because:

1) It allows more customization than branches of a tech tree. You may decide to switch to another ideology in mid-game and you are not forced to study primitive technologies. As with a tech tree, in Era system advanced techs are available in time, but here you can pick a more specific set the ones you need.  If in Era 1 you studied something you don't much need any more in Era 4, it is bearable. If you picked a "root" tech and progressed in this direction to a "leaf" tech within a tech tree and then you decide that another "leaf" on another "branch" is what you actually need at this moment, you are doomed to study several techs to reach the needed one.

2) Era system is a way to unlock free game mechanics (trade routes, system upgrades etc.) that should make your mid-game (Era 2+) more interesting. I think that some of these mechanics should not be available from the beginning because (i) they are not something inherent to a newborn space empire (ii) you have (should have) plenty of other things in early game to be occupied with.

3) Era system represents a number of social&scientific paradigm shifts. I personally enjoy a feeling that "now my empire made an immersive leap into a new quality of existence". This is good imho.

4) Deeds will be implemented and they are tied to Eras. And Deeds are much more interesting than their analogues in other games - I mean wonders.

5) In connection with the above said and as an addition to it, replacing Era system with something else will require far too much work by the Devs. I am sure that equal efforts will bring more fruits if they are applied to other issues - including the ones I am describing in the thread. 

I'm sorry to say, but we seem to disagree all points. 

I don't think you carry valid arguments for the Era system, although I can read you're clearly a fan of it.

Just to make clear, that your arguments can not persuade me for a second to make a 180 degree turn on this topic.

Also your comment on the tech-tree poll is a joke.

The poll gave even more options than needed to understand that a majority is not appreciating the Era system in the game right now.

Was tempted not to answer, but else you would be thinking I was agreeing with you.

Cheers

RageMcGeezaks wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but we seem to disagree all points. 

I don't think you carry valid arguments for the Era system, although I can read you're clearly a fan of it.

Just to make clear, that your arguments can not persuade me for a second to make a 180 degree turn on this topic.

Also your comment on the tech-tree poll is a joke.

The poll gave even more options than needed to understand that a majority is not appreciating the Era system in the game right now.

Was tempted not to answer, but else you would be thinking I was agreeing with you.

Cheers

Hi again and thank you for your feedback!

First, I don't consider myself a fan of anything. However, I have noticed that I would rather enjoy a (i) flexible, (ii) inflationless tech system (iii) consistent with adjacent game design features - such as politics and deeds. I tried elaborating one and it required preserving Eras. If these requirements could be fulfilled by a tech tree, I will welcome it; if there is some third way, I will welcome it: there is no unique best solution. If another day I understand how to get rid of the Eras within the tech table I proposed and this turns out to be rather beneficial than harmful I will be happy, but I don't currently have an idea how to do it.

In other words, Eras are a brick in a shaky wall. The Devs can replace the whole wall - or some other broken bricks in the currently existing wall to repair it. Both ways might be equally good given a right implementation.

Second, I hope my comment did not offend anyone although its shortness might be taken for rudeness. https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21160-research-systematics-in-es2

I wish there were more options because I personally did not feel like my opinion fits any of the three. Therefore, my opinion could not be represented in the figures without distortion. To be specific, I suppose "ES2 should carry on developing the ERA Research systematics as currently designed" with significant amendments. 

Finally, the majority did vote for Era system in one or another form. 37.84%+18.92%=56,76%. This is not a significant advantage and I am not sure if it should be taken into account, because - as I told - the problem is systemic while the poll addresses just one "brick".

Another thing is starting relationship at "Cold War".

Why cannot we have peace from the start? (apart from Cravers)

samsonazs, if we are talking about the current situation, I think the reason for Cold War as a starting status was determined by the fact that it is not binding to aggression nor cooperation; the wording "Cold War" might be incorrect though. You are currently free to change this status on turn 1 given mutual approval and a technology researched. As I mentioned, I don't think the latter is a right idea.

Sotnik wrote:

RageMcGeezaks wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but we seem to disagree all points. 

I don't think you carry valid arguments for the Era system, although I can read you're clearly a fan of it.

Just to make clear, that your arguments can not persuade me for a second to make a 180 degree turn on this topic.

Also your comment on the tech-tree poll is a joke.

The poll gave even more options than needed to understand that a majority is not appreciating the Era system in the game right now.

Was tempted not to answer, but else you would be thinking I was agreeing with you.

Cheers

Hi again and thank you for your feedback!

First, I don't consider myself a fan of anything. However, I have noticed that I would rather enjoy a (i) flexible, (ii) inflationless tech system (iii) consistent with adjacent game design features - such as politics and deeds. I tried elaborating one and it required preserving Eras. If these requirements could be fulfilled by a tech tree, I will welcome it; if there is some third way, I will welcome it: there is no unique best solution. If another day I understand how to get rid of the Eras within the tech table I proposed and this turns out to be rather beneficial than harmful I will be happy, but I don't currently have an idea how to do it.

In other words, Eras are a brick in a shaky wall. The Devs can replace the whole wall - or some other broken bricks in the currently existing wall to repair it. Both ways might be equally good given a right implementation.

Second, I hope my comment did not offend anyone although its shortness might be taken for rudeness. https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/21160-research-systematics-in-es2

I wish there were more options because I personally did not feel like my opinion fits any of the three. Therefore, my opinion could not be represented in the figures without distortion. To be specific, I suppose "ES2 should carry on developing the ERA Research systematics as currently designed" with significant amendments. 

Finally, the majority did vote for Era system in one or another form. 37.84%+18.92%=56,76%. This is not a significant advantage and I am not sure if it should be taken into account, because - as I told - the problem is systemic while the poll addresses just one "brick".

Hello,

Thanks for the response! 

If you put it that way I think the flexibility of the Era system is what bothers me.

To me it seems as a very opportunistic way of playing the game, always being able to just grab what you need on the spot.

It sounds nice, but it also removes depth in the sense of planning ahead.  

I think if you would link the categories in this post to separate research branches you could make a decent tech tree/web.

You won't have deeds, but you could make a 'soft' Era progression, like in Civ. If you research one very high tier tech, or all the tier I techs, you enter a new Era.

That means you would always be able to advance to the next Era, at the expense of very high research costs. 

As for the poll, maybe I also reacted a bit bluntly. But the way I read it was; roughly 60% oppose the current system. 

The poll can never be significant on its own, we can only extrapolate on its meaning. Its a close call that's for sure.

SilentMuse wrote:

A suggestion for expansion focuses by political alignment, although I can see where you are going with religious groups and unique planets, I feel that it is sort of hanging off the idea the temples are included in those uniquenesses, but not everyone worships the Endless, and no one worships the same way that they did. I think that perhaps an influence focus might work better, as religion is often a very effective way to influence a population. Just a thought, maybe you have other reasoning.

The problem is that planets produce only FIDS, so I had to give Religious Group some special focuses in their Expansion. Unlocking technologies does not mean population begins worshipping Endless. It means population learn more and become capable of exploiting Temples. However, Temples are so extraordinary/supernatural that population become more religious as a consequence of such studies, whatever their religion is.

But, I as told, given tech descriptions are just examples of possible ones.