mixerria wrote: 

Though I could see a problem - If you want a certain really needed technology (i.e. basic diplomatic relations with other major factions) and you, for some reason, do not know it comes directly after the technology for diplomatic relations with minor factions (because you want to conquer them for exp anyway), you're probably screwed. Or you're missing out a certain really great and important technology because the prerequisite technology just seems not useful or if the prerequisite just isn't obvious to you.

 To this, I propose two solutions:

1. Choose the No-blind option.
2. Int tech design make techs available from different requisites. As an example, you can go to the tech that allows extracting titanium by two ways:
   1. Oh whats this on the ground? Can I use it in some way? Approach: tech is unlocked once you colonize a planet with this resource. you can't see the resource until you colonize the planet and send a probe or explore the corresponding anomaly.
   2. I bought this hard metal in the market. Can I obtain it in a cheaper way? Approach: tech is unlocked once you obtain titanium by any way (market, loot or any other).
   3. Of course both conditions unlock the tech allowing you more flexibility.

This reflects better how real research works, and allows player more options to get a tech.

HaxtonFale wrote:

At a glance, I like some ideas, some perhaps not so much. Generally speaking, I'm not too keen on this game becoming turn-based Stellaris, and this is where your proposal is leading (especially in tune with so many other changes from previous games).

Never played stellaris, so I can't say.

Tech trees, as much as they are a huge simplification, bring stability and predictability, something relatively important with such hands-on approach to ruling an empire as is present in most 4X games, especially with such direct competition.

Locking resource-dependent modules behind needing a lot of said resource first means you are favouring empires that happened to get resources on easier planet more than usual. Locking bigger ships behind a certain amount of smaller ships means you are favouring empires with bigger industrial output more than usual. Locking colonisation behind needing a certain number of better planets means you're favouring empires that got more easier planets near their home system. Concerns regarding diplomatic techs were already mentioned above. It seems like there's a pattern emerging here...

As mentioned in first post, I was not planning any alternative system, just thinking how research works and how to apply it in a game.

Of course sometimes the requisite should be a tech, like in tier 2 titanium/hyperium weapons/armor or in tier 2 probes. This is when your military go to scientists that discovered tier 1 and say: "you did a good work, I'll give you resources to see how you can improve it". If I didn't put any example of this, was not because I was trying to create a pattern, but because we all know the tech as prerequisite.

Also as this is more about philosopjy tham a concrete system, I didn't look for balance.

What I see in your proposal is adding a lot of nondeterminism, randomness, and uncertainty to the tech system, making long-term planning that much harder. There are some neat ideas, but - again - I feel they don't work in Endless Space as much as they would in Stellaris, unless the changes to the government system go even further - oftentimes I feel like I'm fighting my own empire that likes to make its own decisions, in addition to everyone else.

About non-determinism, one of my favourites tech trees was the one in SMAC, where althought the tree was hidden there, the tech you reasearched was - partially - randomized, so you can suppose my ideas about not seeing this as a bad thing.

As in previou responses I never play multiplayer, so can't say anything about it.

To last, I think that this feeling of fighting your own empire is a concern of most players in actual game status, but it can be solved by various ways, and not necessary returning to a tech tree if Amplitude is hard on making another system.

And one more thing about trees: for what silliness it had, Civ V had a pretty good idea about mixing trees and eras: the tree was divided into sections, and once you researched at least one tech from a section it became your current era/age/epoch.

I agree wiht this. There are some propositions to mix both systems in this forums. I suppose you read them.

At a glance, I like some ideas, some perhaps not so much. Generally speaking, I'm not too keen on this game becoming turn-based Stellaris, and this is where your proposal is leading (especially in tune with so many other changes from previous games).

Tech trees, as much as they are a huge simplification, bring stability and predictability, something relatively important with such hands-on approach to ruling an empire as is present in most 4X games, especially with such direct competition.

Locking resource-dependent modules behind needing a lot of said resource first means you are favouring empires that happened to get resources on easier planet more than usual. Locking bigger ships behind a certain amount of smaller ships means you are favouring empires with bigger industrial output more than usual. Locking colonisation behind needing a certain number of better planets means you're favouring empires that got more easier planets near their home system. Concerns regarding diplomatic techs were already mentioned above. It seems like there's a pattern emerging here...

What I see in your proposal is adding a lot of nondeterminism, randomness, and uncertainty to the tech system, making long-term planning that much harder. There are some neat ideas, but - again - I feel they don't work in Endless Space as much as they would in Stellaris, unless the changes to the government system go even further - oftentimes I feel like I'm fighting my own empire that likes to make its own decisions, in addition to everyone else.

And one more thing about trees: for what silliness it had, Civ V had a pretty good idea about mixing trees and eras: the tree was divided into sections, and once you researched at least one tech from a section it became your current era/age/epoch.

Sotnik wrote:

Oh, I suggest giving a try to multiplayer in Amplitude games. Their game design is really convenient for that.

Sorry about that, but for agenda reasons I have not time top play a multiplayer. I liked playing O-game and Travian and such games when they come out, but actually they become too addictive and time consuming, so I'm restraining myself to go into a multiplayer. Also got a family and obviously won't do it in my job.

Well, if we choose blinded, it favors players that know the techs better or printed the tech tree :).

If we choose non-blinded, again we spend time (a precious administrative resource in multiplayer) on reading pre-requisites unless they are well systemized. As there are some special techs which are unlikely to fit general pre-requisites ("trackers"), it is better not to impose pre-requisites upon such techs at all. Therefore, the very idea is ruined.

You're right here.

 By the way, some of the techs already use your suggestion. I mean the buildings and other things unlocked via quests - the difference is that they don't need science points.

My idea is that there should be prerequisites with some logic to techs, also have in mind I was not proposing a concrete system, but only thinking about how actual systems seems to have same flaws in a lore and real world logic perspective.

About the techs from quests I understand they are completely different from other techs, as they are rewards that can be a tech or any other thing.

Sotnik wrote:

lo_fabre wrote:

Sotnik wrote:

Hi! The idea is very interesting, but I believe it needs some generalization/systemization/simplification/intuitiveness. We will probably need to remember a lot of information on purposes of techs; the Devs seem to plan introducing more complex links between techs which should be remembered as well; in this situation, keeping in mind unique prerequisites of each tech will be hell. 

• Double-blinded: In tech screen you only see those tech you have the prerequisite to start researching.
• Single-blinded: In tech screen you see all the techs grayed. They are unlocked as soon as you got its prerequisites. You can see clearly what its prerequisites are, but have some hints.

These options could make single player even more interesting, but they make things even worse in multiplayer.

I always play single. Never even considered how it could affect multiplayer.

I understand in multiplayer everyone has same conditions, and you can always make Non-blinded the only option in multiplayer or have all members i a session the same condition.

lo_fabre wrote:

Sotnik wrote:

Hi! The idea is very interesting, but I believe it needs some generalization/systemization/simplification/intuitiveness. We will probably need to remember a lot of information on purposes of techs; the Devs seem to plan introducing more complex links between techs which should be remembered as well; in this situation, keeping in mind unique prerequisites of each tech will be hell. 

• Double-blinded: In tech screen you only see those tech you have the prerequisite to start researching.
• Single-blinded: In tech screen you see all the techs grayed. They are unlocked as soon as you got its prerequisites. You can see clearly what its prerequisites are, but have some hints.

These options could make single player even more interesting, but they make things even worse in multiplayer.

lo_fabre wrote:

To @Romeo and @Slaunye, glad to read your posts too, and see you like this ideas.

I should clarify: I currently don't like the research system in any capacity. As in, if anyone asked me to say one nice thing about it, I'd draw a blank. Your system would at least help give it some utility if nothing else, and definitely would provide it more personality.

This post is having lots more participation than I expected...

And good ideas are growing from you.

To the last post:

mixerria wrote:

 

2. (2.1.-2.3.) Not sure... It is more realistic, sure. But on the other hand the first prerequisite seems too hefty (colonize & anomaly researched) and the second one is too easy in comparison (just buy 1 titan for e.g. 10 dust).Anyway, the idea gets better the longer I think about it, tbh. :D It would also make having the resource-dependent modules being a little bit later in the game; at least for era 1 and maybe for the other eras if you can discover the resources only after the start of that era. 

Another question arises, though: As soon as you made the research for extracting e.g. titan, would all resource deposits be suddenly auto-discovered?

Ow don't know. May be you can get an specific detection tech in a quest, or just maintain the actual system.

 Idk, but I really like the current system where you'd already see some deposits whilst you might get more researching anomalies.

I like it too. some people are complaining about it, but in general I appreciate this idea.

 Also, what about resources you should not have till reaching a certain era (or generally later in the game by any other technological scale)? Should the corresponding anomalies just be hidden or greyed-out? (Rather a gameplay-question) How do you imagine discovering these, if not by buying the resources at the market?

Ouch! A difficult one!

I imagine this late-game resources like uranium in history. So they will need some techs as previous requisite, if you look at radium, and all following elements that emitted radiation, first you need to discover radiation, and after that you can detect the radiation this elements emitted.

Not sure about if anomalies should be grayed out or hidden. I'm most of the second, but its only my taste.

Had no problem with linking it to an er or having two mandatory prerequisites, as the techs to discover things like antimatter will be only available, or you be only capable of exploiting it when your empire has reached a great grade of development and you have enough knowledge of previous techs.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions regarding the feasibility of your concept, but I think it might help if we want to actually see this in the game. :) (Though there's also the point that having that would make the game unnecessarily complex, which is indeed to be considered.)

Well my idea was to bring a reflection about how science work and how it can be translated into 4X games. Never was a concrete proposition to bring into the game, only to make community and devs think and produce new and interesting ideas.

lo_fabre wrote:

mixerria wrote: 

Though I could see a problem - If you want a certain really needed technology (i.e. basic diplomatic relations with other major factions) and you, for some reason, do not know it comes directly after the technology for diplomatic relations with minor factions (because you want to conquer them for exp anyway), you're probably screwed. Or you're missing out a certain really great and important technology because the prerequisite technology just seems not useful or if the prerequisite just isn't obvious to you.

 To this, I propose two solutions:

1. Choose the No-blind option.
2. Int tech design make techs available from different requisites. As an example, you can go to the tech that allows extracting titanium by two ways:
   1. Oh whats this on the ground? Can I use it in some way? Approach: tech is unlocked once you colonize a planet with this resource. you can't see the resource until you colonize the planet and send a probe or explore the corresponding anomaly.
   2. I bought this hard metal in the market. Can I obtain it in a cheaper way? Approach: tech is unlocked once you obtain titanium by any way (market, loot or any other).
   3. Of course both conditions unlock the tech allowing you more flexibility.

This reflects better how real research works, and allows player more options to get a tech.

1. Obvious answer. :D Hmm, to be honest, I'm rather in favor of that, since it makes setting up a research order much easier and less guess-y.

2. (2.1.-2.3.) Not sure... It is more realistic, sure. But on the other hand the first prerequisite seems too hefty (colonize & anomaly researched) and the second one is too easy in comparison (just buy 1 titan for e.g. 10 dust).Anyway, the idea gets better the longer I think about it, tbh. :D It would also make having the resource-dependent modules being a little bit later in the game; at least for era 1 and maybe for the other eras if you can discover the resources only after the start of that era. 

Another question arises, though: As soon as you made the research for extracting e.g. titan, would all resource deposits be suddenly auto-discovered? Idk, but I really like the current system where you'd already see some deposits whilst you might get more researching anomalies. Also, what about resources you should not have till reaching a certain era (or generally later in the game by any other technological scale)? Should the corresponding anomalies just be hidden or greyed-out? (Rather a gameplay-question) How do you imagine discovering these, if not by buying the resources at the market?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions regarding the feasibility of your concept, but I think it might help if we want to actually see this in the game. :) (Though there's also the point that having that would make the game unnecessarily complex, which is indeed to be considered.)

To @Romeo and @Slaunye, glad to read your posts too, and see you like this ideas.

Sotnik wrote:

Hi! The idea is very interesting, but I believe it needs some generalization/systemization/simplification/intuitiveness. We will probably need to remember a lot of information on purposes of techs; the Devs seem to plan introducing more complex links between techs which should be remembered as well; in this situation, keeping in mind unique prerequisites of each tech will be hell. 

As an option, there will be several trackers (6 at maximum) which will be common for some similar techs.

Otherwise I will spend half time at the tech screen and it will be really hard to return to the game after a couple of months without playing.

Besides, the mechanic you propose will probably be exploited in the Deed system.

Good idea this about the trackers. As in my response to mixerria I was thinking philosophically about how research work in real world and how to implement it.

About what you're saying about remembering too much info, just something bad came to my mind. If you want to implement a system based on this, you can add this options in galaxy generation:

• Double-blinded: In tech screen you only see those tech you have the prerequisite to start researching.
• Single-blinded: In tech screen you see all the techs grayed. They are unlocked as soon as you got its prerequisites. You can see clearly what its prerequisites are, but have some hints.
• Not blinded: Start with grayed unlocked techs. you can clearly see the relation between techs, the era requirements to unlock (may differ depending if you're using a tree or era system, you get the point), and icons that make clear, or at least give an idea about each tech unlocking requirements. You also can mouse over techs and the pop up explains clearly what you need to unlock each tech.

To your last point, yes, it has common points with deed system, but it is different in the way deeds are competitive and gives unique rewards (may not be techs, but items, resources, etc...) to only first player who unlocks them. My idea makes similar requisites for techs, but what you do is unlock the capacity to research something, and all factions can unlock all techs (except for faction-specific ones).

Finally, just remember the first post: this is a bunch of ideas. I don't feel at this time capable of proposing a new tech system that is different from tree, eras or other systems proposed in these forums.

mixerria wrote:

I generally agree with your train of thought, though here are my thoughts on your proposals.

Glad to see this.

• Trade companies: have at least two different systems with exploited strategic/luxury resources. the idea of trade is previous to space travel of course. The sense of it is that you start thinking how to implement it in space once at least two of your systems have things to trade with.

Interesting, though the condition is far too easy, tbh. A more difficult condition could be too hard, though.

To be honest, as said in first post I was philosophically thinking on how research works and what peoples has to have in mind when creating a research system (said tree, eras or any other), and wasn't even thinking in balance or gameplay terms.

Can't agree or disagree.

• Colonization techs: have colonized a number of planets from a lower tier tech (in tree or eras as you want). The sense is that you are turning more agile and having better resources to colonize more hostile planets every time you achieve to colonize a new environment. Also you can make costs (is tems of number of colonized planets) scalable.

Interesting idea, but too punishing for tall empires. Anyway, I'd rather have the prerequisites here being like in the colonization tech system you proposed.

As before, when writing the colonization post I was thinking in gameplay mechanics and balance (not sure if achieved). Here I was not.

But thinking in gameplay sense here most probably you're right.

• Extractors of resources: have at least one colonized planet with this resource. How will you test your ideas any other way.

This, please not. Your proposal makes sense, but I for example really push this usually asap, since I want to gain resources as soon as settlement of the first colony is done. (The first star system seems to never have titan or deuterium for me)

Same as previous. I always liked balance between gamplay and common sense, and can accept some deviations of it as long as they're good for the game.

• Titanium/hyperium/... weapons: have 10 units (or more in more advanced tiers) of this resource. It make more sense than an era or an extracting tech. What you need to make tests is the resource, not a tech that allows to extract it, but you haven't found any system with this resource. Also you can get the resource from various other means like the market. Furthermore you can add the resource cost to science cost in the research.

Seems okay, though, please no cost other than science for researching technologies. If that happens nothing would speak against using dust or manpower or other stuff for research. While that may be realistic to some extend, that breaks too hard with the original concept.

Good point here. To clarify this idea comes from games like XCOM where you need alien guns to research better weapons. Not sure if asking for resources to complete a research fits well in a 4X (probably not).

• Hulls: have built a number of lower-tier ship hulls. This is: once you master how to build small ships, your engineers can start thinking how to make bigger ones.

Makes sense, too, but I don't really like this idea really much, since I usually skip the first not so properly equipable ship types anyway. (Srsly, who uses them anyway...)

Though I could see it rather like this: Continouusly building a certain ship blueprint (not hull type) over and over makes it go cheaper in production cost after time (maximum of 10% or so), with each ship built decreasing by 0.3-0.5% per command point.

Same answer as previous. It's hard to balance in gameplay terms. But glad you like my way train of thought and other people in community has read it and posted here.

Hope devs at least have this idea in mind.

I always hated this thing that you had to research horseback riding to see horses in the map (hell a horse is big enough to see) It has to work inverse: you see horses, and then asks to yourself: can I use it is some beneficial way?

Same in space: you can research a tech in military tree that unlocks a series of weapons and armors that needs hexaferrum to be build, even before you research a tech that allows you to see what planets has hexaferrum and extract it.

The tech tree does not need to be dropped, but retought and redesigned on a basic level.

I agree with most of stuff there.

There need to be some company to advance to the next level be it in ES2 please.

Yes, I agree with you on most of these. If we must abandon the tech tree (Which solves these issues by making your species aware of the technologies required to understand the next thing), then at least pre-requisites would make sense both lore and gameplay-wise.

I generally agree with your train of thought, though here are my thoughts on your proposals.

lo_fabre wrote:

As to put some examples of specific tech prerequisites I'm speaking of:

• Diplomatic techs (I think it should never be a tech, but anyway...): have contact another faction (minor or major as you want).

YES!

• Trade companies: have at least two different systems with exploited strategic/luxury resources. the idea of trade is previous to space travel of course. The sense of it is that you start thinking how to implement it in space once at least two of your systems have things to trade with.

Interesting, though the condition is far too easy, tbh. A more difficult condition could be too hard, though.

• Advanced trade improvements (like the actual Era III): have two trading companies or have a very long trade route. this is the moment you start thinking how to make them more efficient.

Seems okay.

• Colonization techs: have colonized a number of planets from a lower tier tech (in tree or eras as you want). The sense is that you are turning more agile and having better resources to colonize more hostile planets every time you achieve to colonize a new environment. Also you can make costs (is tems of number of colonized planets) scalable.

Interesting idea, but too punishing for tall empires. Anyway, I'd rather have the prerequisites here being like in the colonization tech system you proposed.

• Extractors of resources: have at least one colonized planet with this resource. How will you test your ideas any other way.

This, please not. Your proposal makes sense, but I for example really push this usually asap, since I want to gain resources as soon as settlement of the first colony is done. (The first star system seems to never have titan or deuterium for me)

• Titanium/hyperium/... weapons: have 10 units (or more in more advanced tiers) of this resource. It make more sense than an era or an extracting tech. What you need to make tests is the resource, not a tech that allows to extract it, but you haven't found any system with this resource. Also you can get the resource from various other means like the market. Furthermore you can add the resource cost to science cost in the research.

Seems okay, though, please no cost other than science for researching technologies. If that happens nothing would speak against using dust or manpower or other stuff for research. While that may be realistic to some extend, that breaks too hard with the original concept.

• "Colonial rights": In actual ES2 form a prerequisite for me will be having a planet with more than two factions pop. It's when you start thinking how to make them be polite with other species individuals.

That is kinda a no-brainer. :)

Though, not related to this, I'd also pledge that a system needs a certain FIDSI/turn and/or a certain amount of minimum population before being able to upgrade the system level.

• Hulls: have built a number of lower-tier ship hulls. This is: once you master how to build small ships, your engineers can start thinking how to make bigger ones.

Makes sense, too, but I don't really like this idea really much, since I usually skip the first not so properly equipable ship types anyway. (Srsly, who uses them anyway...)

Though I could see it rather like this: Continouusly building a certain ship blueprint (not hull type) over and over makes it go cheaper in production cost after time (maximum of 10% or so), with each ship built decreasing by 0.3-0.5% per command point.