ENDLESS™ Space 2 is turn-based 4X space-strategy that launches players into the space colonization age of different civilizations within the ENDLESS™ Universe. Your Vision. Their Future.
As most of you actually know (just clarify if here's someone new) actually you get bonus from assimilated minor faction, in form of faction traits you can see in empire (the one with victories) screen. I'm talking about "Hunting culture" from Hisso, that gives you +20% module DMG or "Constructophile" from Mavros, that gives you 20% production bonus to ships, and so on.
Actually we have a very clear mechanic when assimilating a faction, either by quest, bribe (or brainwash) or invasion. But the thing comes when you conquer a system from another faction, that has been the home system of a minor and has been assimilated, you don't get the bonus (at least I couldn't see it).
Also, to make it worst, it seems this bonus is someway lost, and there's no way you or anyone else can get it in future, but the one who originally assimilated the minor maintains it (not sure about that last point, needs more testing).
IMO it may bee too OP to get the bonus conquering the system from another major faction, but it's a pity you can't get it by any other way. As a proposals to have it I have:
Paying influence after conquering the system. It's a kinda not making it free, but just getting for conquer + a cheap price. Said you brainwashed again i lore sense.
Liberating the minor, and in exchange you get the bonus trait.
The ability to do this minor quest is still there as diplomatic option.
dust is always there. Let the bribe option open.
What do you think?
If you fell this will be fit better as an idea, just post it and I'll copy-paste.
As a side question to devs: is this related someway with the empire population bonuses in update 2? Something like this bonuses coming from having a number of pop from a minor, and not assimilating the, or will they be only for majors??
Since conquering a system from a faction also gives you citizens from that main faction, I'm not sure it should give you some bonus ?
True, but bear in mind taking over that minor faction through diplomacy is comparatively easy, and provides even better of a bonus. I'm with Lo_Fabre, the current system seems a little too forced.
Honestly, I'd just apply the bonus to whomever currently holds the minor races' home system. This way you can't early-grab every minor faction with influence/dust just for their empire bonus (which is sometimes kind of extremely strong... 20% bonus for ship building is damn massive), but you actually have to defend these systems. Others can get the bonusses too, of course, they just need to take that home system.
Honestly, I'd just apply the bonus to whomever currently holds the minor races' home system. This way you can't early-grab every minor faction with influence/dust just for their empire bonus (which is sometimes kind of extremely strong... 20% bonus for ship building is damn massive), but you actually have to defend these systems. Others can get the bonusses too, of course, they just need to take that home system.
I like your idea a lot. It would make the minor factions relevant beyond the race to assimilate them for their bonuses. It would also be a significant strategic consideration in wars. I think it would be a lot of fun.
Honestly, I'd just apply the bonus to whomever currently holds the minor races' home system. This way you can't early-grab every minor faction with influence/dust just for their empire bonus (which is sometimes kind of extremely strong... 20% bonus for ship building is damn massive), but you actually have to defend these systems. Others can get the bonusses too, of course, they just need to take that home system.
I like your idea a lot. It would make the minor factions relevant beyond the race to assimilate them for their bonuses. It would also be a significant strategic consideration in wars. I think it would be a lot of fun.
Thanks.
Maybe having minor factions' home systems in ones empire could also strengthen you diplomatic pressure versus other players? I'm kinda thinking of the city-states of Civ 5 when I think of minor factions, although they are fundamentally different from minor factions, of course.
I agree with mixerria, and would extend the ownership of a major faction bonus (not the affinity, just the bonus) to the ownership of the homeworld of a faction.
(Cravers & Vodyani would work a little differently)
Honestly, I'd just apply the bonus to whomever currently holds the minor races' home system. This way you can't early-grab every minor faction with influence/dust just for their empire bonus (which is sometimes kind of extremely strong... 20% bonus for ship building is damn massive), but you actually have to defend these systems. Others can get the bonusses too, of course, they just need to take that home system.
I like your idea a lot. It would make the minor factions relevant beyond the race to assimilate them for their bonuses. It would also be a significant strategic consideration in wars. I think it would be a lot of fun.
Two good entries. I agree.
A new adition can be link the estrengh of the bonus to number of minor faction pop in your empire: as example 0.5% to ship production per each mavros you have in your empire instead of flat 20%, provided you have previously assimilated them (or conquered their home system)
Honestly, I'd just apply the bonus to whomever currently holds the minor races' home system. This way you can't early-grab every minor faction with influence/dust just for their empire bonus (which is sometimes kind of extremely strong... 20% bonus for ship building is damn massive), but you actually have to defend these systems. Others can get the bonusses too, of course, they just need to take that home system.
I like your idea a lot. It would make the minor factions relevant beyond the race to assimilate them for their bonuses. It would also be a significant strategic consideration in wars. I think it would be a lot of fun.
Two good entries. I agree.
A new adition can be link the estrengh of the bonus to number of minor faction pop in your empire: as example 0.5% to ship production per each mavros you have in your empire instead of flat 20%, provided you have previously assimilated them (or conquered their home system)
Now this is a great idea too, I think. It's also a far more realistic idea than mine. :D
Anyone support an idea that would incorporate my and/or lo_fabre's idea? (Combination of the ideas would be: a flat bonus for having their home system (e.g. 5%) and then each minor faction pop has the same bonus, but much smaller (e.g. 0.5%))
that's why a faction assimilation is a major event that is reported, it's because it means that an empire has gotten it's hands on another passive. (think of it as knowledge they will bestow to their overlords, when you conquer the system after it was assimilated, all the blueprints were already cleared out)
Minor factions are most interesting for this rather than the system you gain while colonizing.
But i think in the future we may get a different system of assimilation (with more steps)00
This is removing the control of the player over those bonuses.
System ownership is better (to me) : it is simple, and most of the time, in gamedesign, simple if it works = better.
There's the religious and ercologists laws to deal with it.
It also will make some things more important:
- Migration
- Ability to get rid of some faction pop (and leave room for that ones that give the bonus)
- More interest in growing pop from minors in your empire.
But thanks for your opinion. I'll take note, and probably think more about it before doing an idea (if I do).
Really this deviated from original thread purpose.
- You can't migrate to / from another faction, your total pop % will not change : so you have no control (we just may soon be able to move pop from system to system you own. This doesn't change the % of minor population we own in the whole universe.)
- You can't choose who is erased from a MP generation : no control (would happen, or not. This happening is not, really not certain, since this may oversimplify politics & senate (hence why I asked this only for dictatorships) and I think oversimplification is why devs are shy about the idea).
- Yup for interest, but the boost is small. But the assimilation interest is nerfed to oblivion. The problem is the generation once you have one guy in your empire is still throwing a dice : so no control again.
The thing is, to me, that removing the control is nerfing some strategic elements the ownership of homeworld would give.
If you want a bonus, with the ownership you can make plans to get it and without this it's a long tedious work also involving lots of changes in the core gameplay engine to make this work.
Also, actually scheming to get an homeworld have quite big repercusions in the game. It's changing the diplomacy, politics and have huge interaction with other factions. I like this a lot :)
(to me) "playing & moving meeples" like that have no interactions with other players (or, just, less interactions), like :
"- I stole you +1% production on a system with my optimization, are you still loving me ?
- Yeah, but I like you just 0.2% less".
I think the meeple image for the minor or major faction population is a good and an appropriate image : you're just accuentating the "worker placement" part of the game.
The "worker placement" side of this game is light, today, and with politics, very calculative. I'm not sure about the devs plan here. If you can move pop from system to system, there IS something missing, I'm quite sure about this.
Explanation is a little long and would ask devellopement but:
- if "you have only one right arrangement of population", then it's not a game, it's a work => soon people will ask for an autosort button.
- if you have two, or more, arrangement with choices, advantages and flaws, then it's a game.
=> 3rd Idea proposal, then : who ever people are the most in one system gives a bonus.
You could choose to dilute your minor/major faction meeples in the whole empire to help to stabilize the senate OR choose to make strategical majorities on systems to get this new bonus, specializing your systems for efficiency, at the cost of giving non politically represented systems and low approval.
At least you won't have players asking for autosort (aka less frustration to sort "one guy here, here and here so they stfu in the senate" if you can sort them another way.
Mavros would get their +20% on 1 system (this stay local instead of empire wide), yes but if they are 3 guys then it's just +20% of 3 guys).
More interaction and more control is my way to like games so I like the homeworld version better.
(but I can 100% understand one would prefer more optimization and more ressource management: there I just gave this last idea, you can exploit ;) ).
But all of this could work together: You can have all systems working together by sharing the +20% of Mavros in two.
For the production ship bonus from Mavros, for exemple, +10% (empire wide) can come from the homeworld ownership, and +10% can come from "meeple management" like you (empire wide, % of total pop) or me (system wide, by majority in systems) says.
I'm not sure each of those +10% bonus would be huge enough to worth the pain VS the actual "let's just throw a new +20% building in my ship production system" or "hey I just click level up and bam +20%".
On the other hand, if the bonus were +15%/+15%/+15% (or +10%/+10%/+10%), then the things would find a balance between the bonus that comes from the conquest, the bonus that comes from the management and the bonus that comes from the devellopement (or heroes, etc).
This depends of the whats and hows the devs wants to reward.
The thing is, to me, that removing the control is nerfing some strategic elements the ownership of homeworld would give.
If you want a bonus, with the ownership you can make plans to get it and without this it's a long tedious work also involving lots of changes in the core gameplay engine to make this work.
Also, actually scheming to get an homeworld have quite big repercusions in the game. It's changing the diplomacy, politics and have huge interaction with other factions. I like this a lot :)
Won't quote all your post to save place, but I see your point.
Explanation is a little long and would ask devellopement but:
- if "you have only one right arrangement of population", then it's not a game, it's a work => soon people will ask for an autosort button.
- if you have two, or more, arrangement with choices, advantages and flaws, then it's a game.
Not related to actual thread, but this may actually be related on how most of populations bonuses works: "+X FIDSI if on Y planet type". I've read some comments asking for an option to automatically place the pop in the most optimal planet for its bonues (sorry didn't remember the thread, so can't provide a link).
Actually I'm bit worried that the fantastic possibilities of pop management can be turned into what you call a "work" (speaking of actual pop bonus, not the hypotetical MF pop traits) and become less interesting.
The conterpart is you'll have 16 minors + 8 majors pop types (for a total of 32 different pop bonus), which probably will be more tha planet types, making some bonus congflicting with same planet type, forcing player to choose what bonus s/he wants. This way this issue will solve itself as release is near, but still not sure as I don't know how the planet grid rework will be and what are the future pop bonus mechanics.
=> 3rd Idea proposal, then : who ever people are the most in one system gives a bonus.
You could choose to dilute your minor/major faction meeples in the whole empire to help to stabilize the senate OR choose to make strategical majorities on systems to get this new bonus, specializing your systems for efficiency, at the cost of giving non politically represented systems and low approval.
At least you won't have players asking for autosort (aka less frustration to sort "one guy here, here and here so they stfu in the senate" if you can sort them another way.
Mavros would get their +20% on 1 system (this stay local instead of empire wide), yes but if they are 3 guys then it's just +20% of 3 guys).
More interaction and more control is my way to like games so I like the homeworld version better.
(but I can 100% understand one would prefer more optimization and more ressource management: there I just gave this last idea, you can exploit ;) ).
Woa! This is a good idea! Can make players compete for MF control and lots more interesting the pop management.
But all of this could work together: You can have all systems working together by sharing the +20% of Mavros in two.
For the production ship bonus from Mavros, for exemple, +10% (empire wide) can come from the homeworld ownership, and +10% can come from "meeple management" like you (empire wide, % of total pop) or me (system wide, by majority in systems) says.
I'm not sure each of those +10% bonus would be huge enough to worth the pain VS the actual "let's just throw a new +20% building in my ship production system" or "hey I just click level up and bam +20%".
On the other hand, if the bonus were +15%/+15%/+15% (or +10%/+10%/+10%), then the things would find a balance between the bonus that comes from the conquest, the bonus that comes from the management and the bonus that comes from the devellopement (or heroes, etc).
This depends of the whats and hows the devs wants to reward.
Not very fond of this mixed mechanics, but it's a metter of taste, and won't be a major issue for me if something like this is implemented.
- the full empire wide bonus for the player which have control over a minor/major capital system
- the full system wide bonus for systems with a majority of minor/major faction population.
- the two bonuses of one specific faction (system + empire) don't stack.
This makes you don't care of the population if you have control of their systems (aka "a political link to motherland").
But if you loose the "colony", then the population must concentrate on a system for the bonus to work. Since the population would be different from your main faction, there may be senate approval problems if that faction thinks different than your main, for non democratic political systems (and "will of independance" since if I remember well they said they were studying the case for one of the next updates).
Meh : it's strange that a state policy of deportation produce bad approval effects with less democratic systems and close to none for democratic system.
So maybe you should have a big malus in approval to move your meeples from systems to systems if you're a democracy (and a tiny malus if you're a dictatorship).
If there is no "cost", moving meeples from a system to another system would be OP to solve your senate approval problems anyway.
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