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Battle System slow pace

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8 years ago
Mar 1, 2017, 12:43:50 PM

To me, and probably to some others, the battle system was by far the dullest part of Endless Space 1, it really dragged the game down with it. And I'm not excited to see that the plodding, non-interactive minutes long cutscenes have returned. Especially after seeing the nicer battle system introduced in Endless Legend.


I can, on some level, understand the idea behind sitting back and watching a cool battle. But it's a galaxy spanning strategy game, and many of those battles might happen in a short period of time during wars. It gets dull and repetitive. The downtime from loading screens and the unnecessarily dragged out phases is not good either. And it takes so much time that you can't really use it in multiplayer.


You might say; "just autoresolve battles then". And I do. But a game where you just see numbers for a battle is pretty lifeless. I'd like to see something. Just not the dullness of what's there.


One idea I've generated in conversations with others about this problem, is that battles should have their duration limited by the size of the smallest fleet. So that, for example, a small skirmish between scouts is over quickly. Likewise, a massive fleet cleaning up stragglers is also not much to look at. But big, important fleets clashing still takes a gratifying amount of time, letting you soak in the action. And medium sized engagements are not quite as long, but still longer than the scouts.


I think that would strike a good balance between things being dull and plodding, and still having impressive battles to sit back and watch.


Whatever the case, loading time needs to improve, or go away. Cache something

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8 years ago
Mar 1, 2017, 2:29:30 PM

Loading times are short, it is something like 5 seconds or less on my system.

Resolutions are long (the hourglass), whether you click watch or not, if you played two hours never reloading a save.


If your scout battles are during a long time, I think you should refit your ships to last missiles and retry.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Mar 1, 2017, 4:53:15 PM

On the option to watch the battle or have it resolve on its own, pick the latter.

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8 years ago
Mar 1, 2017, 11:58:45 PM
Romeo wrote:

On the option to watch the battle or have it resolve on its own, pick the latter.

On the post, where I addressed this exact response already, read it.

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8 years ago
Mar 2, 2017, 7:10:11 PM
BmB wrote:
Romeo wrote:

On the option to watch the battle or have it resolve on its own, pick the latter.

On the post, where I addressed this exact response already, read it.

I read that, but you're arguing against your own points. You say you don't want to watch a big spectacle of a battle. Then you say not watching is lifeless. I can't really suggest anything other than pick one of the two. If watching bothers you enough to start a thread about it, I'd suggest not watching.

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8 years ago
Mar 3, 2017, 2:36:14 AM
Romeo wrote:
I read that, but you're arguing against your own points. You say you don't want to watch a big spectacle of a battle. Then you say not watching is lifeless. I can't really suggest anything other than pick one of the two. If watching bothers you enough to start a thread about it, I'd suggest not watching.

It doesn't say anything like that.

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8 years ago
Mar 3, 2017, 8:49:19 AM

It says things like "the battle are too long with fleets made of scouts", which have no interest watching to begin with ?

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8 years ago
Mar 3, 2017, 2:48:59 PM

I turn them off. They're boring, shot framing is terrible, the camera is jerky (why?), and they just hog system resources.


I don't think the cutscenes need to go, per se, but they could be cleaned up (better framing!) and apportioned out into phases: closing, close, run down/retreat. Each phase should be fully skippable.

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8 years ago
Mar 3, 2017, 5:43:13 PM

Ardent brings up a good point. The framing was terrible. Namely, the camera tended to look away from killshots, so you were confused about what just had happened. I think some system should be added so the camera tends to cut to killshots more often, making things less confusing.

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8 years ago
Mar 3, 2017, 8:34:53 PM

This, I agree. The realisation is quite choppy and this is not the best selling argument to watch the battle. Music is always the same too.

I think the cuts could be twice as long, and I think the camera should exploit more group shots to understand what happens, show the different size of ships and show more kabooms, especially on the biggest ships (we should see all the biggest ships exploding, I think, because those can be turnovers in the battle).


In SF, there is a lot of classic framing they could use. For exemple the ones when a turret is in the forefront and you see its target in the background (I'm not sure I saw those in ES2).

Or the "war journalism" zooming battlestar gallactica used a lot for ship transiting in front of a bigger ship (they over used this, with low focal). Slow travelling on the biggest ships over used in starwars.


All of this could be really better. :/


I ended hoping this was not final yet, because they remade all trajectories in the last patch and the fighters are coming for release (so I guess there will be fighter shots. Btw, I think I never saw a good videogame making a nice use of their fighter shots).



All of this framing is external to the game engine and put in xml, you can see how it's handled in

[[YOUR_DRIVE]]:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Endless Space 2\Public\Simulation\Battles\RealizationPoolShots


Beware, it's not really easy to read or understand (and it should be a nightmare to test).

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Mar 6, 2017, 2:42:38 PM

dont the buttons to throttle the battle speed up and down partially solve one of these problems (duration of battles?) 


The director function could perform better, with kweel's suggestions for improvement a good blueprint for doing so. 

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8 years ago
Mar 7, 2017, 6:36:58 AM

I can't imagine a fast forward would solve things. You wouldn't fast forward through a battle in a movie, it'd look stupid. So, such an option would be no better than just skipping. In either case you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What I'd like is for the bathwater to be drained separately.

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8 years ago
Mar 9, 2017, 5:39:46 AM

I use autobattle only also.

For that, the battle system is just ok, only one choice to do.

But I would like a battlesystem where if you don't choose autobattle, you can really manage something for getting an unexpected victory, as I do in Endless Legend.

Here, mostly, the best upgraded ships win. So it's a question of basic power (and not to choose a really bad tactic card according ships range).

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8 years ago
Mar 9, 2017, 10:39:41 AM

I can imagine the following things:


Camera cuts (generic changes) :

* Generically, any cuts in all the battle should lenght twice the time as the current version.

* Some, but not all, camera shots could use a sea effect (like filming aboard a ship).

* Explosions should not be cut if filmed by the current camera

* ...but the camera director should have authorization to cut an explosion if the next shot is showing the same explosion.

* ...but the camera director should have authorization to cut an explosion if a bigger ship is exploding to show it.

* Not all ships should be shown exploding : small ships are shown exploding, then if this escaladate to medium, only medium, and if this escalade to big, only big.

* It could be better if explosions were slower and used more sub explosions before the big kaboom by the way (ok, this is a japaneese classic, but I think many people loves this). Why no sphere subexplosions like in oldschoold Japan space anime ? (Macross, etc)

* Maybe experiment with zoom / change of focal which is a numeric effect they over-used on BSG. But this should be very rare shots (maybe once in 3 battles ?), because that effect is a little weird and give a little 3d sickness (but this may be me).

* Foreground turret shots shooting a ship in background. Extra points if the target is exploding (so there, keep focus on the target's explosion while the turret is picking another target). Foreground missiles turrets should be far because this a little like Macros missiles :) Beams should better be filmed with a side by side shot I think (like in pirate movies).

* Slow pan shots, best pan shots ! :)



Now about fighters, if they use rear shots or cockpit shots:


Sound (fighters) :

* some sort of "bathroom" filter on all battle but the sounds coming from the fighter

* accelerations : use a cook burner for that : *click* *click* *VROOF*, but this would need to anticipate accelerations for the clicks.

* throtle : use the cook burner *pshhhhhh*

* deceleration : use some kind of the Cylon 2-cylinder engine in BSG sort of *DUGU-DUGU-DUGU.*

* lasers and pew-pew: i don't know.


Camera (rear shot or cockpit shots, fighters) :

(Formula 1 inspiration)

* acceleration: would tilt the camera slitly up angle and down pan (like your F1 pilot's head)

* decel: does the opposite (like your F1 pilot's head)

* turning: tilt Z+Y-angle/pan camera like your F1 pilot's head would do too (ok "like your F1 head would do" is NOT easy I agree ! sorry for this :/).

* very very slight recoil when the ship is shooting.

* use some blank noise to generate camera angle/pan bumps (there is no road, I agree, but the engine could do this. This would give organic sense to the camera).


Fighters's explosions should be anticipated too so there is no hard cut. I could imagine some KLANG in a bathroom (like metal against metal, or your titanic trying to hug this iceberg) then flames for 1 or 2 seconds, a small *POOF* and a cut.
Extra love points if fighters could kamikaze on bigger ships (or ram another fighter) but I also agree this is NOT easy (at all)...


(but all this can be only me, I don't know).

Updated 8 years ago.
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