Serpicos wrote:

It also seems strange that I need to research vehicles and air troops.  I mean I already have galaxy traversing space ships I feel like armored vehicles and planes were something I should have had in the distance pre-space travel past.

Think you're right that it doesn't make a lot of sense from the point of realism (it's not likely a space-faring civ would come to FTL travel before tanks or planes), but realism doesn't always matter to game design. Amplitude is heavy on simplicity with enough depth to make interesting choices -- we could start out with infantry, tanks, and planes like you've mentioned, but that front-loads a lot of complexity to the invasion mechanic from the get go, which tends to lead to confusion about how the whole thing works. Rather than do that, we start with infantry vs infantry with a smattering of tactics because it's fairly easy to understand (and implement), then when we get used to that, tanks change the dynamic (good vs infantry), then planes once more (good vs tanks, not so good vs infantry). All in all, I think the system accomplishes the goals Amplitude had in mind for ground battle reasonably well for what it is: an abstraction of star system-wide invasion. That being said...

Zolobolo wrote:

What I do think it needs though:

1. Improved quality of visual for tanks and planes. The tanks should look modern and bad-ass so their cost is rewarded with a sense of progression and to help immersion

2. More choices before the battle. Just expand the possible tactics and allow the selection of several (with research or due to race perk) to achieve synergy 

3. Have some order in the way the troops are lined up. I don't mind them overlapping, but the amorf blob is awkward a bit. Just render them in a couple of formations over one-another. It is still representative but the player can feel that there is a system behind it

I'm in agreement here, though with 2, I'm not sure we need more choices so much as a choice in the first place. As far as being the attacker in the invasion (I haven't had many AI's actually invade me, so I can't formulate much of an opinion on tactics the defender has), I feel like Infiltration is hands-down the strongest option in nearly all cases; I almost never go with Blitz or Preemptive Bombing. Blitz is just terrible and probably needs to be reworked as an option, because its effect not only makes it easier for the defender to kill you (-Invader HP), it also extends the amount of time he has to do so (+2 turns of engagement). You never, ever, want to use this tactic if you have superior numbers, which if you are invading, is something you want to have. Preemptive Bombing isn't as bad, but its effect isn't very desirable: the damage done to the defender is pretty negligible (maybe 2% - 5%?) and the chance of destroying system improvements or killing pops is generally a detriment (if you want to keep the system) or completely trivial (if you destroy it). That only leaves Infiltration, and my oh my, what an option it is. For -1 turn of engagement, you get 25% more HP on your troops. This, combined with superior numbers, is the way you do ground combat -- you do plenty of damage to the defender thanks to numbers, and you take very little damage in return thanks to the extra HP.  When you get to the point of having 2700 manpower per ship, there's no choice to be made: you click invade, you click infiltration, you take 3-4% damage to manpower, you find the next system to conquer.

As for 3, I think the problem just lies in the fact that the visualization of the ground battle renders every single infantry/tank/plane in the battle. This might be fine for 100 units of infantry, 20 tanks, and 5 planes, but it is not good for 1000+ infantry and 100+ tanks. I'm not sure formations are the answer, but I think it might be cool to see different versions of infantry/armor/air units when invasions feature large contingents of troops; there could be a heavy infantry unit to represent 100 infantry, or a super-tank to represent 20 tanks, etc., anything to keep the sprite count low enough not to cause huge frame rate drops, but high enough (and cool enough!) to feel like this is a big invasion.

As a side note, I don't know about you, but I would say that Craver tanks completely fulfill your criteria. I mean, it's a massive Craver with a massive cannon on its back. That is so bad-ass. :P

Serpicos wrote:

It also seems strange that I need to research vehicles and air troops.  I mean I already have galaxy traversing space ships I feel like armored vehicles and planes were something I should have had in the distance pre-space travel past.

Agreed, this is a bit odd.

Support the decision to have an abstract battle for ground combat, and think that they have taken a great approach by showing off all the races with different unit sprites as it makes the player feel more close to the selected race

What I do think it needs though:

1. Improved quality of visual for tanks and planes. The tanks should look modern and bad-ass so their cost is rewarded with a sense of progression and to help immersion

2. More choices before the battle. Just expand the possible tactics and allow the selection of several (with research or due to race perk) to achieve synergy 

3. Have some order in the way the troops are lined up. I don't mind them overlapping, but the amorf blob is awkward a bit. Just render them in a couple of formations over one-another. It is still representative but the player can feel that there is a system behind it

4. Do not have them run at each other at the same time. Have the battle played out in a sequence. Weather tanks, planes, infantry or planetary bombardment is used first should make a difference, and let the player decide the overall strategy of which one goes first. No need for granular control, just have cards like:

- Stroganvo Tactics: 1. Send in half the infantry without guns to save resources 2. Send in second half 3. Bombard the whole battlefield 4. Tanks march in to squish remaining survivors

- Mobile Infantry tactics: 1. Fly in 25% of tanks with 30% of infantry to take out tactical objectives 2. Abort mission as soon as casualties are higher then 50%

- Carpet Bombing Tactics: 1. Planetary Bombardment, 2 Send in planes - Enemy will get cover bonus for the next couple of rounds due to rubble where they can hide

Edit: Ok the tank animation for United Empire is just to ridiculous. I understand that the race is represented as an industrial powerhouse where babies are born with a wrench in their hands, but this is just too cartoonie... I mean, the whole thing and I mean it seems like every single plate on that things is shaking like three is no tomorrow. Looks more like a baby toy then expensive high-tech armouired death-dealing machine in the future. Event the Orks couldn't pull this thing off from 40k its so flimsy. Also understand that the lore has its light hearted moments, but planetary invasion should not be this much funky. It is sort of a serous milaitry operation involving millions of troops, high-tec and considerable losses in civilian life - at least give it some dignity :)

tulip wrote:

I think the washed out "simulation" look is kind of ugly, especially contrasted with the space battles. Even cartoony, Advanced Wars style graphics would be a significant improvement. And I'm in the camp that overall likes Ground Combat, I've had entire wars reversed by ground combat and I found that pretty exciting.

solrac137 wrote:

Maybe some balance around different faction trooops too since i dont understand how sophon tropos with their small Pistols can fight cravers on an even ground. 

To be fair, they actually can't - Sophons have Feeble Warriors, AND Cravers have Fearless Warriors.

Still i think that troopss need more variety lumeris troopss should be different from craver ones and vodyani ones maybe something like that could favourr manpower Exchange maybe you could sell your super soldiers in the market or something anyway i totally agree with you on the other point, for me the problemm is that when you get a lot of soldiers battles start looking weird and having two stacks of troopps fighting on a napoleonic way is inmersión breaking and anticlimatic. 

Me and a friend had an idea on how to improve ground combat its here.

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/ideas/338-invaders-must-die-ground-combat-rework-ideas

You could adds the visual improvements i mentioned earlier which wouldnt require great changes i think that ground combat should have a more strategical focus rather thn tactical since is a planet wide conflictt rather thann some small ground skirmish. 

Ninakoru wrote:

I don't understand the complaints about better visual or removing the visuals. If you don't like the visuals, just auto-resolve...

Going to the level of detail of the starship battles would require a huge amount of effort for the developers for a side feature, I prefer they spend that time improving the ship battles and everything else.

The same could be said about space battles, whats the point  why did they make space battles just autoresolve everything right? well it shouldnt be like that also i dont mean getting the same level of improvement of space battles but maybe some small tweaks like a smaller and more spread number of troopss in order to make it a bit more appealing visually speaking this is something that wouldnt require huge changes and would make the experience far more enjoyable visually speaking, or maybe an above view like in total war with icons representing armies and their numbers ( for you know inmersión and sutff)

Both solutions are far more simplistic thn remaking ground combat and it would make it far better visually speaking. 

Maybe some balance around different faction trooops too since i dont understand how sophon tropos with their small Pistols can fight cravers on an even ground. 

The attackers have 3 major attack options, right? A slow and steady, a standard, and a quick+dirty. Those options make sense for a fleet that can have more or less manpower depending on what's in orbit and they do have the high ground, after all.

Defenders only have what they have. If you're on the ground there are 3 major options that I can see. You hold, you MAD, or you go underground.

Holding is simple. You fight with a standard defender's advantage. Pretty effective against all.

MAD is scorched earth. You hurt everyone and ruin the planet's infrastructure, including yourself. Has a bonus vs. crammed Blitz forces but will obviously not be as effective against small infiltration teams. A hero will help maximize damage.

Underground is spite tactics. Every man, woman and child lingers around as long as they can doing as much damage as they can. This is for lost causes. Reduced damage against all tactics as forces go into hiding. Standard assaults provide the most time to hide, while a quick blitz reduces the effect and teams will be lost against infiltrators, but the real bonus comes afterwards. The planet suffers reduced production/happiness/etc. due to lingering resistance cells. This malus may be huge for particular factions and especially if a hero unit is involved. The painful effects die out quickly enough but even the last handful of elite survivors will last ABSURDLY long and provide a bonus on attempts to reclaim the planet.

So what do you think?