I agree with plutar. The absense of a real wiki is already bad enough. The game has so much information but its locked away in pages of old and new forum threads. From how trade routes work, why you somehow get bonus industry from a trade route, why developement grants is like 5 times as much fids for 15 luxury ressources, how fighters and bombers work etc. 

Give us a proper encyclopaedia. This game was the first time I ever searched for a handbook since the start of digital only games and the existing handbook has information from some sort of alpha stage developement of this game. I do not want to go back to old save files anymore just to figure out quest rewards because nothing of that info is available online.

sheredynplayer wrote:

Give us a proper encyclopaedia. This game was the first time I ever searched for a handbook since the start of digital only games and the existing handbook has information from some sort of alpha stage developement of this game. I do not want to go back to old save files anymore just to figure out quest rewards because nothing of that info is available online.

Well it's been like this since Endless Legend, actually. Amplitude continues to iterate and evolve their games even after release. There are naturally pros and cons to this but I feel like we gain more in the end than we lose. Of course this is from someone who visits the forums regularly so I can see how it would prove daunting for newer players or folks who are only occaisonal play.

So yeah, some sort of encyclopedia with general mechanics changes would be a big plus. Stuff like quest rewards etc. should be documented inside the game and automatically updated when changed. 

We're still going to get DLC and free add-ons that change the game in fundamental ways as well, so it's not like we were ever looking at a static core game.

Can't the players make a wiki? Isn't that how it usually works?

WeLoveYou wrote:

Can't the players make a wiki? Isn't that how it usually works?

Yes. And someone like CyRob would be the perfect candidate to kick that off, but there are still things that should be documented by the devs ideally.

plutar wrote:

I was the one slashman. And the problem was addressed in the mod by the HP increases. That was all that was needed to correct a situation. Competitive MP is very delicate, and sometimes less is more. A battlecard to reverse targeting order would be interesting. I dont want to see it turn out like the planet killer. Some end game tool that NEVER gets used unless your playing a long single player game in particular victory settings where its necissary to use to keep your empire size now.

Competitive MP is not my focus and as long as something works as intended, if it gets used or not in multiplayer isn't a dealbreaker for me unless it adversely affects the core game. Now I can understand correcting small ship power versus medium ship power because everyone playing the game should be progressing through the various ship hulls and finding uses for them. But a single piece of tech that does not find use in MP is not a balance issue if it is not core-game affecting. These exist in pretty much every multiplayer strategy game. Unless the tech is an obvious single player exploit, what does it matter?

Slashman, they fixed the issue with a hp boost to the larger ships to help the small ships already in this mod on the discrepency with the hp boost and the buff to bombers. And yes I was the one who brought it up. I am super lucky and thankful that we have a developer that listens to players requests. 

This statement seems to contradict your below statement. So what exactly did the mod fix regarding small ships then?

The issues now are small ship spam is overly strong, fighters are not countering bombers, and projectile weapons in terms of balance are off, way off the mark.

Just look at the current live version of the game, they change efficiency on beams from zero to fifty on medium range, nothing else, and that was enough to make them go from completely useless to extrodinarily overpowered.

If someone spamming small ships is overpowering medium ships, then continued buffing of medium ships will obviously create a disparity between them and large ships. It seems logical to me to find a way for medium ships to directly hurt small ships en masse since the problem is massing of small ships. The solution should not hinge on a battle play that someone may or may not have in their decks at any point in time. I'd rather it hinge on a tool that is freely accessible to everyone at all times. 

@slashman they recieved a buff the medium and large ships. They medium ships are not there YET. There close, but not there yet, why my statemeny seems contradictory was trying to imply progress has been made in this iteration of the mod. Its not there yet which is what we are talking about.  

Also, i am not directly against the idea of a MIRV , I was just expressing concern when tools are available to fix without adding content. 

If the ship balance is off and your playing the AI it wont abuse a overpowered tactic. A human will take what works and multiply it ten fold.  It creates a situation where strategy is no longer important. We already have tons of tools in this game. Making them work together is incredibly complex. I was expressing concern

My contradictory statement was the ships have received a small buff. They just aren't quite there just yet. The games with the mod are a thousand times better then the games without.

If you add another tool you have to be careful that that tool doesn't make a particular strategy worthless either. Is the goal not to require a mix of every ship type in your 22cc Fleet? That's my goal.

@Plutar OK your statement makes sense now. 

I also agree that humans will abuse every loophole. It is one of the reasons that MP balance is so difficult and why much of the time, things that are allowed in single player are absent in multiplayer in so many games.

That aside, your mix of ships idea may not be viable in the way you think. The two small ship hulls and the two medium ship hulls pretty much serve the same purpose. All you're doing is scaling  their potential when moving from small to large. In the majority of space strategy games, small ships simply fall by the wayside as the game progresses into later stages unless they have some critical purpose that makes their small size worth building. This applies to most strategy games and it makes sense. From Sword of the Stars, to Star Ruler 2 to Gal Civ, you want bigger and stronger ships in your fleet.

We still need to find a way to counter small fleets. Any ideas (go crazy)?

In most games the counter to zergling armies is AOE damage. The "Extreme Anti Gluon Beam" and "Extreme Taraco Laser" have a "Flotilla Collateral Damage Received 10%" modifier. I'm assuming this is AOE damage? My games have always ended before I researched that tech so i've never tested it.

You could stick this modifier on an entire weapon class like say the Beam weapons, and nerf their damage so they are relatively bad versus small flotillas but great versus large ones. 

It would also be a great counter to just sticking your entire fleet in a single lane instead of spreading your ships out. 

AOE Missle damage/beam whatever and make it available accross all resource weapons, the percentage could go up per tech, something like this.  But whatever weapon per flotilla would also be cool, it would throw a "If my opponent is shooting small ships at me, which flotilla will he chose" kinda meta game going on.

Is the module going to freely let Hunters ignore tanks as well? 

I have a feeling that when projectiles and lasers fall inline, flak/missles/beams/lasers are all effective weapons, one not too strong than the other, everything will fall into place with the HP boost.  The double slots with weapons and a mild 10% boost should be enough to stop the glass ant spam strategy.  

I'm gonna go back to my airmath for MP.  

I'm looking forward to see what they do next with this myself!

New version out: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/changelog/1077924717

3.2
- Reverted Propaganda system to Star System Improvements (disabled the Law versions)
- Squadrons now have feedback on their modifiers against ships
- Fighters are now useful against small ships
- Medium Hunter hulls now have +20% Damage instead of the former +10%
- Weapons have access to all ranges
- Missiles are now more accurate when firing at middle and can fire at short range. Their optimal range is still Long.
- Kinetics now fire from Short to Long, but with very poor accuracy on Long. Their optimal range is Short, but even there don't have a 100% accuracy.
- Improved feedback regarding the function of Flaks
- Balanced wepaon costs

PS: there's a typo in the last bullet point ;)

Interesting stuff! Lets see how this sets the bar for hunter vs small attack.

Well I hope you will keep up your promise to add propaganda and bonus law slots to dictatorship and autocracy. Also don't forget my feedback and increase the effectiveness of propaganda (it was almost doing nothing even though I kept it up from turn 20 to 60).