I've found what is causing this, It's not mentioned on the change log anywhere but

In "Simulation/Battles/SimulationDescriptors[Ship].xml" (G2G Balance Mod Files)

The Class Hull Small Civilian has had its "+1 Maximum Movement" modifier removed.

Civilian ships normally get a bonus +1 to thier base movement but it has been removed, Not sure if this is intentional or they have just forgotten to add it.

Not sure what is happening with the hero ships though.

@Slashman didn't know I needed to list my sources on every post, btw I also agree with you kinetics nerf needs to be strong but not too strong, But the idea of a medium range firing at XX% effeciency is a very good idea and a very good prospect, so I though I would post it over here to see if it was something that could be talked about in the balance mod!

Just to be clear, where did I imply that you needed to list your sources on every post? I was actually just making sure you had read the dev response to the issue in the F&B GDD. 

My other suggestion would be to give all ships a certain Flak level while removing the ability from kinetics. Then have support ships have a higher level with the added ability to shoot down missiles/fighters/bombers over the whole flotilla. The larger ships in Homeworld basically all had small, hull-mounted guns to deal with bombers and fighters. I'd be in favor of implementing that here.

Slashman wrote:

My other suggestion would be to give all ships a certain Flak level while removing the ability from kinetics. Then have support ships have a higher level with the added ability to shoot down missiles/fighters/bombers over the whole flotilla. The larger ships in Homeworld basically all had small, hull-mounted guns to deal with bombers and fighters. I'd be in favor of implementing that here.

My only problem with that is, where would the flak emplacements go? Some ships have room for a ridiculous number of additional firing positions (I'm looking at you, Zelevas-class Dreadnought), but others have very few places as is and would require changes to their models, like Horatio. You could just forgo having animated flak guns, but that would look very weird and leave players confused as to why their bombers are exploding at random.

I think the easier solution is to make Flak a unique option that looks just like Kinetics, but with a different firing animation and effect, replacing the usual minigun burst and stream of bullets with a five shot cannon burst and the classic puffs of death, likely laced with visible Dust. Place them in weapon slots, but make them Support-only so only Defenders and Coordinators can equip them. The fact that Attackers and Hunters can't use Flak will actually make them more important, because they will be necessary to damage enemy ships while the Coordinators and Defenders hold the line against enemy fighters and bombers.

But back to the topics at hand

Point Cost Discrepancies: Pretty much every faction is off by at least 5 points from their maximum point budget. That doesn't mean they're unbalanced, a 5 point discrepancy is normal due to how abilities are rounded by cost, but there are a few factions who have significant discrepancies between their apparent balanced nature and the story their trait costs tell.

-Vodyani are 20 points over budget on traits; if Gargantuan Pops didn't already have that horrendous Food debuff starving them to death, I'd suggest adding Black Thumb II as a fitting addition.

-Sophons are 10 trait points short due to Feeble Warriors II; on the one hand that could be removed, on the other hand add Constructionists I for the same reason the Scientist law reduces Improvement costs

-Cravers are 20 trait points over due to Crowded Planets II; let Horatio have Crowded Planets II and give Cravers Expansionists I

-Lumeris are 10 trait points over, but feel fine to me and all of their features seem too core to their playstyle to remove.

-United Empire are 20 trait points short, and 15 pop points short; add Fervent Colonists and give them a second pop FIDSI of some sort (I miss Engaging Denizens myself)

-Horatio are 15 trait points short, and their pop bonuses aren't implemented; make Gene Hunters 100 points, make Price of Perfection -10 more points (it's easily on par with Pathfinders as a malus), add Crowded Planets II and Strange but Good so Horatio can actually use his starting Ecologists law like everyone else. Goes over budget, but only by five.

-Riftborn are 35 trait points short, partly because Biophobic is treated as a negative when for a faction that starts only able to live on Sterile planets, it's a positive. Mines need to cost 5 more or so. That still leaves 20 points to fill, and I have no good suggestions.

-Unfallen are 10 trait points over but feel fine in that regard; they're also 5 Pop points over due to Bounteous Gardeners (+5 Food on Fertile). Maybe bump them down to Prolific Farmers (+3 Food on Fertile)?

This doesn't mean the factions are unbalanced, but it does mean their traits may be incorrectly costed. Some factions though, like Horatio, both feel weak and are weak according to their point costs; others feel well balanced but the point costs say they aren't, like Riftborn, United Empire, Cravers, and Vodyani.

As a couple unrelated suggestions, it would be nice to see either Vodyani or Cravers ditch Fearless Warriors for Brilliant Strategists, just to differentiate the two of them; give Cravers Crowded Planets I and Expansionists I instead of Crowded Planets II; and can we get a rework of Gargantuan Populations and Vodyani pops? Right now the -50% Food cancels out their Food bonus, making them worse Adept Workers who starve to death before they finish Drone Networks. I'd rather have only +3 FIDS and Black Thumbs II if it means not starving to death constantly.

Trade Routes are so much more fun now, I have no real complaints but still need to try out Lumeris to see if I can break it. I still get warnings on a regular basis though about Cravers approaching an Economic victory, though they're much more spaced out now. It'd help if I knew what milestone each warning signified.

Heroes feel pretty good too, but I still find myself leveling them quickly enough to start getting annoyed at their skill point notifications before the halfway mark. When the Horatio quest was offering me level 10 Heroes, I already had level 14 Heroes, and level 14 is really when a Hero runs out of room to grow meaningfully. As a few asides:

 -Heroes who favor one damage type or another generally just annoy me. I understand those abilities are powerful, but I find myself displeased that my individual Heroes demand that I go in a particular direction with my overall tech strategy to make them useful.

 -Seekers are described as focusing on "exploration of the galaxy and scientific wisdom." They have four suitable Exploration/Fleet skills, but only one Science related skill; their other Governor skill provides Influence and defense for some reason. That second skill needs to be something Science related.

 -Counselors are described as focusing on "empire-wde resources as well as diplomacy." They have three and a half suitable skills for their description; Sensitive Systems feels like an Exploration ability since -20% Fleet upkeep isn't very helpful on just one Fleet, the Joy Initiative technically provides an empire wide resource by reducing upkeep but provides a single-system boost with its Approval effect, and Public Relations Expert only kind of encourages diplomacy. They need more suitable Admiral skills than straight buffs, like Influence/Dust per CP destroyed or lost.

 -Guardians are described as focusing on "fleet warfare and industrial production." They fit that theme well. Papers, Please is the only oddball, being a Diplomacy skill that should really be on the Counselor, except for its Manpower fleet refill effect. Once again, not happy with Iron Discipline favoring hull plating, especially as this is the premier admiral class most people will use, and thus I expect it to be neutral in this regard. It could do with a Governor ability in place of Papers, Please, likely regarding ground combat or Ship cost reduction. Or even a skill with split System and Fleet effects!

 -Overseers are described as focusing on "system-wide resources and fleet development." I'd say that they fit that theme, except that Clerical Corrections is providing an empire-wide resource.

In general, non-Guardian classes need some more Admiral abilities suited to their description, and Admiral abilities in general need to provide benefits more on par with major ship modules. For example, Projected Mantle currently boosts Shields by 20%, which doesn't help a fleet with plating (which conflicts with Iron Discipline, which does call for it), when it could instead provide a Fleet Shield like the module of the same effect, and later a Re-Shield effect. Something a bit more interesting and which hopefully isn't so reliant on the players tech choices following a very particular military pattern. My hope is that in the same way I can use strong Governors to fill in for a lack of improvements in a system or the empire, I would like to use strong Admirals to fill in for a lack of military advancement. In an empire with a lot of Influence production and not much else, being able to buy Heroes and use them to run my empire sounds awesome.

Point Cost Discrepancies: Pretty much every faction is off by at least 5 points from their maximum point budget. That doesn't mean they're unbalanced, a 5 point discrepancy is normal due to how abilities are rounded by cost, but there are a few factions who have significant discrepancies between their apparent balanced nature and the story their trait costs tell.

 Point system is nowere near balanced state :roll:  Half of negative modifier are basicly free points. Stuff like ethernal war, doubtfull tacticians, cowards, combat rookies,loosie senators etc. And the other half of negative modifier are severe handycaps for pitifull points return. 

 On positive modifiers, all %FIDS require more points for each tier, despide giving flat returns. Ground combat modifiers are worthless, etc.

 I d rather balance the factions by how well they perform in game, rather that by abstrac points.

 Vodyani - give them +2 move speed to boost early game.

Sophons - leave as they are.

Cravers - leave as they are.

Lumeris - leave as they are.

UE need some boost to early science, perhaps a positive anomaly on starting planet? Or just unique starting planet with science or influence?

Horatio - Price of perfection need to go. There is no reason to gimp them so much.

Riftbort -  get rid of move speed reduction.

Unfallen - depseratly need some nerfs to early-midgame. Perhaps remove the ability to interact with minor civilisations before vining them? If they spawn near 3 minor, its basicly a game over for everyone else.

Ptirodaktill wrote:

BTW anyone knew how antimissiles works? Missile seems uterly useless in MP, as one kinetic gun per ship counter whole volley 0_o. And the red missiles seems to do zero dmg.

Would also like to know the exact mechanics of it.

For sure missiles have HP and guns to damage to them.
Titanium missiles have 50% more HP and they are very deadly if researched fast as basic kinetics cannot keep up with destroying them.

As for Horatio, it doesn't help that there are only two Industry  producing minor pops, and a multitude of Food producing ones. Food just  isn't worth much with so many ways to produce it in abundance.

 Food isnt so worthless as ppl think it is. if you have a lot of food from peks, then you can safely ignore some reserch and buildings, that would be nececary otherwise. 

Unfallen are now too strong according to both performance and points.

 Unfallen OPieness come from instant colonisation coupled with maxed pop growth. Yes, they need 20 turn to colonise first system, but then only 5 turns for second, 4 for 3rd etc . And they can safely drop 1 pop per system to new one past turn ~30-35 filling all new systems with pop in few turns. They dont have to wory about happiness, cause they can sacrifice some  trees every turn without any consequenses, due to pop growth, so they end with ~60-80 pops depending on respawn RNG by turn 60, outmatching everyone else by far.

 Fast travelers is fixed now =) Still, the pink text is kinda disturbing :roll:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/849347241494507950/E6B0FECC395F4CB0CC35E20760034F8BCE9832A6/

I'm getting a lot of complaints for being in AI space when I simply have vine ships working on a system that they then try to colonize.  I thought non-military ships weren't supposed to aggravate the AI any more.

The xp on the admirals looks like good now. If you dont fight, they win few levels. But if you fight a lot, they get more level than senators. So seems is balanced, and win a battle with a hero is far more rewarding now !

Hello Stl0369, 

As alway, thank you for your feedback.  Would you happen to have a save showing this kind of behaviour?  We've modified the way the AI computed what is and isn't seen as a threat trespassing in their territory so this really shouldn't happen.  Also, did you see this happen only with the Unfallen or with other factions as well?

Cheers :)

Is it just me or is there something wrong with the Tech "Neural Robotics". After I have researched it I still get it as a "reward" of a quest and its still constantly being suggested as my "next tech" even though I have it already. Is that a bug? I only see this with this technology.

Gameplaywise I really enjoy playing Horatio now. I feel they are so much stronger then they were before. :) The Eco-Laws do synergise so well with their already tallish playstyle. Supremacy Victory round 75 on fast. Didnt think that would be possible with them ;)

WeaponizedCaffeine wrote:

Hey everyone !

I’d like to start by thanking all of you for your valuable input and for your involvement in ES2 in general! It’s always a pleasure!

@CyRob: Yeah I know I’m kinda late to the party but I saw your post, and particularly the part regarding the variable Length Modifier for Trade Routes and I thought it was a rather smart idea you’re having here! However, we’ve decided to go without it for now and I guess it can only be constructive to explain our thought process behind this decision.

[...]

Cheers,

I'll start of by saying that I very much appreciate that you have taken the time to do an in-depth reply explaining the reasons behind why you took the route that you did.

That said I do still disagree with it being with the route taken but I can see why you guys see it as being better,

This isn't going to stop me attempting to convince you to change it however (sorry about that)

One of the main reasons you have left it unchanged is so that it rewards High Risk routes, maybe it’s my playstyle but I don't really ever have the possibility of making High Risk routes (so what is it rewarding?), I can make long routes but they are not high risk,

Speaking of; this can reward low risk routes, on certain map settings 15-17 length routes are quite doable while all being in your empire's uncontested space, the high reward of a 440% Income Bonus does not match the rather low risk that the trade route has (being entirely within your borders).

And if your friendly/ally with another faction then 35-40 length routes are possible without ever leaving friendly space, The Crazy high 900% Income Bonus (I think you can agree It's a bit too high, regardless of risk) does not match the at most moderate risk. 

I like playing on the largest map settings and so I often experience these crazy bonuses and it makes using Trading companies feel like I'm cheating (nowhere as much as before but the feeling is still there) I am somewhat averse to them as they make the game less fun to me. (But this may be all a product of my map settings & my playstyle and I do not know how many other people (if any) also feel this way)

An alternative change: would be to have diminishing returns with the bonus, For example: you start with 100% and for the first 10 Distance you get +20% each (as normal) the next 10 get +15%, next 10 get +10%, Next 10 +5%.

This still greatly rewards longer trade routes just not to the crazy levels as before (The earlier +900% would now be +600% which while not crazy is still rather high & rewarding)

I am wondering what you guys think of my alternate idea, the Trade Power system. (I would much rather have this than a change to The Route Length Modifier but it's a big (thus unlikely) change)

Which (in my opinion) solves the issues I have with the current route taken & the issues that you guys have with my proposed changes (hopefully).

This idea while first thought of as a different way of balancing Trade Companies has now developed into a way of making them much more interconnected with the rest of the game and adding a new layer of strategy; Economic warfare.

The Basics of the idea is to somewhat turn the current system on its head, Trade Companies (& all their modifiers) make Trade Power as opposed to income.

(Dust Income is now Dust Trade Power, Hydromiel Income is now Hyrdromiel Trade Power, Etc. There is one for each product)

Now I'll get back to Trade Power, but the other major change is the addition of the Trade Network Pools, (There is one for each product much like trade power; Dust, RedSang, Jadonyx, etc.)

Every System with a trade company or subsidiary has (let’s say 30%) of its Dust & Luxury Output added to the relevant Trade Network Pools.  

Note: it’s not removed from the system, E.G. if a system makes 1000 dust, 20 Superspuds & 10 Ionic Crystals Then it still makes that amount but the relevant Trade Network Pools gets 300 dust, 6 Superspuds & 3 Ionic Crystals added for that turn.

Also, some exsisting trade system improvments could give a boost to the percentage added from system income to the Trade Network Pools.

Now once everything has been added to the Trade Network Pools then it can be divvied up, this is where Trade Power comes back into play.

Each Trade Network Pool is divvied by the relevant trade power, you get a cut relative to your percentage of trade power.

So the new Trading Company income is calculated like: =[X]TradeNetworkPool*(Total[X]TradePower/Company[X]TradePower)

(Where [X] Is Dust, Mercurite, Drift Buds, Etc.)

This whole system allows Trading Companies balance to derive from system balance and the percentage of System income added to the Trade Network Pools from each system. (which simplifies balancing blancing it)

Keeping with your philosophy of having players easily understand the already complex trading system,

You could on the Trade Company Screen display the current Trade Network Pool amount and the share generated from your current Trade Power,

Where in-game it currently shows trade company / route income it can show trade power generated.

these can all have tooltips that breakdown how it's generated;

I.E. The base amount and the modifiers for trade routes and the trade routes being totalled for trade companies

(This would be nice functionality even for the current system)

This can also lead to integration of the Market Place Mechanics & Trade Companies,

The Trade Network Pools Centralize the Trade Company Mechanics which allow it to be easily integrated with the Market Place Mechanics.

Everyone wonders, where do the goods on the market place come from?

Why not make trading companies the major supplier?

How this would work is that the Market Place has (Let’s say 25%) of the Trade Network Luxury Pools added each turn, Just this change will make the Market feel more alive.

Now one of the things I love about the Market Place is the Stock market feel of the price variations on the goods sold there,

This can be brought to trade companies, Firstly the Dust Income from systems to the Trade Pool would be reduced (for Balance)

Then just after the Trade Pools are divvied up the luxury pool cuts are multiplied by their current Market Price so dealing in highly desired goods (expensive on the market) is more rewarding.

E.G. Trading Company Dust Income = Cut of Dust Pool + ( Cut of Jadonyx Pool * (Market Place Price * 0.25 * Market Place Tax) ) + Etc.

(the 0.25 represents the amount sold to the market (25%) and the Market Place Tax is the Tax Rate set on the market (but for balance sake maybe this amount should not go to the market owner & just represent the amount under the current price the market bought it at)

This also means that the market events that most people dismiss now have much great importance, especially to those wanting an economic victory, they can now be a great boon or bust.

This all in all allows player (non-Trading Company) actions to increase their trading companies’ profits, yet again making the whole system more interconnected with the rest of the game.

There is the Blockading of enemy trade routes increasing your cut of the Trade profits that I have previously talked about.

With the Integration of the Market Place Mechanics & Trade Companies It would allow for many more similar actions adding the new layer of strategy; economic warfare. For example, you can (like a real cartel) buy up a luxury resources that you’re mainly trading in to buff the market place price thus get you more money (not sure if you will turn a profit but you will not lose nearly as much money as you would normally to get a ton of luxuries) you could also do the reverse of dumping excess of a luxury that a rival mainly trades in to flood the market and reduce their profits. Blockades will now also effect market supply so it gives so much more depth that you can dive into and plan for to make your Trade Companies more profitable but is not required to be used (Which is a good feature as then it doesn’t confuse new players).

I know that this is a rather ambitious Idea, one outside the scope of the G2G Balance mod, but it’s on topic and balances trade companies so I thought it best to discuss it here, It would be nice to have it considered & and hear other people’s thoughts on it.

And If people think it’s good maybe somewhere down the line we will see changes similar to this idea.

TL;DR: Thanks for the Explanation, but I still would like some change, I've also elaborated on my previously mentioned Trade power idea with a idea for the future about integration of the market place & Trading companies to make galactic economy feel much more alive.

A few observations I came across while playtesting as Lumeris on normal game speed, endless difficulty.

Tech Tree: Progress in science in general appeared to me to be smooth. Techs require a comfortable 2-8 turns, progression through the eras seems good. 

The competitive quests that are unlocked with each era  need to be reviewed, especially considering the rewards they provide connected to the difficulty to achieve them. 3000 science for a era 4/5 quest where one tech requires 24000 science to research and my turn income is 10000 science? Feels underwhelming.

• Early Game (era 1&2): Some techs are mandatory thus setting the early research path in stone. This includes Xeno Industrial Infrastructure and Public Private Partnership as strong early game system improvements (considering the keyword addition of "fertile" to monsoon and mediteranian) as well as Baryonic shielding (this name is not intuitive) for both free movement AND curiosity levels. 
• Midgame (era 3&4): I like the variety of choices, which depend on the current situation of the game. Some techs are definetly way stronger then others, but this is difficult to balance i guess.
• Lategame (era 5): Honestly I did not feel compelled to reseach most era 5 techs. Few of the them seemed to unlock something new and flashy. Just a new building to be more effective at industry or science. Terraforming or conversion of food to industry at fully maxed systems strike me as outstanding examples of good lategame tech here - a tech that I aim towards the whole game, which solves one of my huge problems or implies a winning strategy for my specific faction. Create more of these please, else it feels like working towards something just to hit the end of the road with a sign that reads: "click these four buttons, wait some turns and win". 

Luxuries

I enjoy the updates to luxuries considering the requirements for system improvements. The progress and requirements worked good this far and I liked the buff to the last tier luxuries being now accessible early enough. This being said I relied heavily on traderoutes to obtain them on a reasonable level and they have limited use elsewhere. Two common resources feel underwhelming (+200 Manpower / cost reduction). Anything that goes beyond the 6 luxuries required for system improvements is instantly sold. +15% Food as a third tier luxury is more often then not underwhelming (i suggest: +1 space per planet instead). I suppose you guys work on additional uses of luxuries and I hope to see your ideas about this soon.

Strategic ressources:

Titanium and Hyperium currently represent the core strategic ressources of the game and they do so very fine. Early game they are good extra dust income and midgame they heavily influence the weapon choices. 

The tier two strategic ressources - antimatter and adamantium -  frankly feel like late game. They are deeply buried in the fourth era and once researched I am halfway through to research the third tier resources quadranix and orialchum (which I have never bothered researching unless for wonder victory). I would enjoy having access to 2nd tier ressources earlier, either as era 3 research tech or preferably as an unlock reward of era 4. I realize this requires further game balance changes but currently the transition of ressources feels odd. Concerning the third tier ressources I allways ponder if it is worth researching them, especially when considering that the science victory is just a few clicks away in the same tech era.

Market place, trade companies:

By now the market place is used to sell stuff. Occasionally one can buy that two titanium that are missing to build your ship this turn but relying on the market to supply you with a resource you are - by chance -lacking for half of the game while drowing in dust is not possible. Heroes felt awfully undercosted (Turn 100+ at a 500k dust account from selling luxuries - a hero costs about 3,5k and is left untouched  by any AI over the whole game). 

I appreciate the changes to trade companies. They felt powerful yet not overpowered with the new mod and worth the investment. As the games progressed some common ressources tended to accumulaty heavily though (+150 dust trees per turn). I asked myself how to supply luxuries for level 4 system improvements without them and concluded they were almost mandatory. Considering distance scaling  I agree with diminishing returns as suggested by CyRob.

Approval

I approve of the change to -10 per overcolonization and the higher threshold. The scaling seems good and overcolonization penalty feels threatening yet managable (if you are a pacifist at least). Allthough bridging the gap between a) reaching the colonization cap and b) building autonomous administration requires to stop colonization of planets or invading of other players for too long in my opinion. Transition is not smooth and hyper-Paks and cultural invernetics are not enough.

AI and Minor Factions:

The AI does rarely bother to interact with minor factions, which I remembered to be different before. Minor faction quests feel random in difficulty and flavor and the obtained faction traits are not balanced (Thinkers and Tinkers I against+200 Manpower a Turn).

Hope this helps

Kynar

One suggestion I think would be good to try out with the G2G Balance Mod.

The Tier 3 stategic weapon choice is not really a choice at the moment.

You have Titanium Missiles and Kienticks agains Hyperium Lasers and Beams.

If you choose beams then missiles will tear you apart as you won't have any good anti-missile defence (the regular kinetics are just to weak for titanium rockets).

So what I suggest is this:
  Titanium weapons would be Rockets + Lasers

  Hyperium would be Kinetics + Beams

This was this is something to think about. You can choose Titanium and have great rockets but with that you don't have a great defence agains rockets.

You can go do Hyperium and have rocket defence but only good close range damage.

What do you think about that?