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[Spoilers] Vodyani Lore Quest writing seems thin, anyone else have any thoughts?

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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 6:05:00 PM

So, today I finished playing Endless Space 2 once with every faction. Having mostly played Endless Legend before ES2 when it comes to the other Endless games, I really found the quest design much improved here. Not only that, but the writing coupled with the choices you had to make, made me actually read it and find enjoyment out of it. While I liked some of the quests more than others, the Vodyani one struck me as...well, somewhat weak. And it did not have to do with the quality of the writing itself, but rather, it struck me as almost a full page was missing.


So, during the quest, when you are supposed to find the item that corrupted Lysander, (Tabachal? Can't remember the name) you decide how to get a hold of it. I believe this was the third part of the quest. When you get it, it is explained that it will be researched and examined by your scholars. Right after that, in the next quest, the main character starts talking about self-doubt in their religion and about all the truths about the Endless, and how they had been lied to, but no single explanation was given. And it eventually leads you to try and move your faction away from this doctrine they have apparently followed for a long time, to the point of destroying planets to rid the galaxy of the Endless remains.

I don't know if it is supposed to be like that or if I missed a window of text, but it just seems like such an unnatural jump compared to, well, all the other faction quests. It just left me a bit confused, perhaps I am not understanding something. Anyone else got a thought about this? Maybe other people really liked it?

I will end this by saying that I really appreciate how the developers are managing to expand upon narrative, so all in all, I think they have done a very good job, this one just stuck out to me.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 7:28:24 PM

It depends on your choices. If you go the non-religious route, Isyara, like her brother, starts having doubts about the faith. If you pick the religious route, Isyara doubles down and becomes even more fanatical (if that's possible). The mechanical results of these choices reflect the playstyle you want to go for. The former allows you to play Vodyani peacefully. With the right tools they can happily go for most victory types through Ark specialisation. The latter sticks the the religious militarist line. I think it's pretty nice that they've included quest choices to allow you to enhance a type of playstyle. So it's worth playing all the factions a couple of times picking different quest routes and seeing where it takes you, both narratively and mechanically. UE in particular can radically change the course of the empire through quests.

On the subject of the Tabernacle. It's almost certainly a relic that records the early Torian (before they were called Endless) genocide of The Lost, and the subsequent dust creation. Given the deification of the Endless by the Vodyani, finding out your saints only achieved their power through a massacre might give you pause for doubt (a bit hypocritical of glorified Space Vampires, but who's going to tell them that?). The clues to all of this are in both the Vodyani, and Academy quests (and to a much lesser extent, the Unfallen). Basically, Isyander finds it, reads it, decides the Endless aren't worth worshipping and the damage theyve done should be repaired, rebels against the Vodyani, causes a civil war, loses, founds the academy, and that's where the game starts.


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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 7:34:49 PM

Thanks, it clarifies, even if I was aware of much of this. I think I was mostly just unclear in the initial post.

What bothered me was that the jump from "Let's find the Tabernacle" to "I am rapidly going into a depression" didn't have a natural transition, I feel. All I would have needed would have been two lines of "We were decieved, the Endless are a lie etc". It just seemed like that shift came out of nowhere to me compared to the other faction quests, which is why I created the thread. Like I said, it just felt like a few sentences were missing, but I digress.

I do appreciate some insight in the lore though. As much as I find it interesting, it has been hard to get a general rundown anywhere.

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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 7:34:53 PM

I haven't played the Vodyani in a while, even though they are my favourite faction, but I can confirm the accuracy of the above post; Isyara either starts having doubts and jumps to action on a similar path as her Brother or she goes absolutely 'Deus Vult' on the galaxy.

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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 7:39:55 PM

Yeah, no, I get that is what happens, and I don't have an issue with it. I was the genearl writing of the quest chain, it didn't seem as cohesive as the other quests, that's all.

But yes, I ended up blowing up the Unfallens home-world so...Deus Vult to them, I suppose.

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7 years ago
Jan 17, 2018, 9:38:00 PM

I agree with you, KreigorMoorkus, I found their quest lore a little thin, especially the part where Isyara starts having doubts. It could use at least a few explanatory sentences, such as spelling out more clearly what she found out about the tabernacle. It seemed like a jarring transition from hard line religious to doubting her people's whole way of life.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 12:12:03 AM

[SPOILERS}

Maybe just differing tastes. The Vodyani quest narrative is my favourite one I think, other than Horatio, which is a mad as he is. Maybe something to keep in mind is that it's written from the perspective of Isyara who is more like a religious leader than a historian. Some of the vagueness comes from language you'd expect from someone with that kind of perspective and values. For example, when talking about 'lies' in that kind of context, it makes sense that she doesn't spell them out, as to do so would be sacreligious. Contrast this with the Sophons or Cravers, that read more as data log entries you'd expect due to the documenting nature of both. Or compare to the Lumeris, which are equally as vague in parts about what 'the kid' gets up to, albeit for different reasons, as they are told from the perspective of Jenestra as a kind of inner monologue. 


This is taken to the nth degree in the Horatio questline, which is probably the most confusing, but it works because the whole point is that it's not supposed to be clear who is even narrating it, or whether it's even the same narrator all the way through. The start of the quest looks like it's one clone - Four (?) - but the final bit of story looks like it's from Prime, a who knows, it might even be a switch-a-roo with Five after the second chapter. Or maybe Horatio's are just as confused about which one they are as we are. But you can see that the story would lose some magic if it started off with 'This is Four' This is 'Five' 'This is Prime'. It leaves out any room for mystery or interpretation.


You can still get a good idea of what is going on in the perspectival narrative, but certain bits of exposition need/should be left out as is fitting for the characters narrating.


As for the jarring transition between finding the Tabernacle, self doubt, and losing faith. I gathered that the seeds of doubt are planted by your choice in the subchapter that requires you either occupy the system, or send a hero there. The loss of faith is just an escalation of this to the next part of the chapter, so I didn't find it that jarring. Furthermore I think this reflects the experience of a realisation of loss of faith, which often manifests as a singular moment rather than a slow process. So I guess the quick move from 'burn heretics' to 'who the hell am I?' should be expected.

Anyway, that's my interpretation of what's going on and why some parts of the text are less forthcoming that others. Happy to see thoughts that run the other way. 


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7 years ago
Jan 18, 2018, 4:02:45 PM

[SPOILERS}

I am glad to get different perspectives on this. I get the idea that vagueness would be good given the context. My general issue was just really the transition between the quests that felt unnatural, and so I felt it was more based on the general narrative, not what actually happened. The Horatio quest was also confusing to start with, but the transitions was never...it didn't feel like I missed an entire chapter.

For example, I looked around the game files and to be clear with what I mean, here is the specific point where I felt there was a jump.
Depending on your choice, the second chapter ends with either:

"The evil Tabernacle is under our power! Glory to the Virtual! They have brought us to our goal, and we will now begin to peel back the layers of lies within this thing."

or
"They have shown us the Tabernacle, and together our finest minds have perused its contents. It is a great store of history and lore, but the lessons that we feared? They are simple and obvious; their falsehoods evident to any trained mind. Truly the Infidel was insane to have betrayed his people because of this!"

I believe I picked the eariler one, which followed up with this in chapter 3:

"I am floundering. The faithful look to me for direction and guidance, yet all I see are the trappings of a lost religion and a rigid hierarchy based on brutal conformity. What is the new role of the Vodyani, and where do we go? By what guidelines and philosophies do I dare to lead them, now that the old ones have been exposed as a web of echoing lies?
One thing, at least, is clear: I will make no progress while the rigid traditionalists control our government and keep a stranglehold on laws and decisions. While I seek a new purpose for our people, I must make sure we are not held back by old habits."

As I can see in the files, the other option would have led to a more smoother transition. My problem is, I would have had a line inbetween there that said something along: "What the Tabernacle reaveled was more horrifying than I could have imagined." I simply couldn't understand the jump in logic from what I read there. It could just be I didn't understand, but in none of the other faction quests, the narrator just completely pivoted in their stance in such a manner, as far as I could see.

However, looking through the files, I see some drastic differences in how the quest turns out if you pick the other options, so perhaps it is just a matter of me having to play more. Either way, I think I have made my point as clear as I possibly can at this point.

I have been playing the Endless games since about release, but just recently started using the community site, and I have to say that I am pleasently surprised on how civil people around here seem to be. Much appreciated and thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 8:28:48 AM

Hi all, and as always thanks for your interest and curiosity.


[VERY LARGE SPOILERS]


The intent of the quest is precisely as it has been discussed and worked out by WeLoveYou--the Tabernacle was an object created by a small group of Endless who were horrified at the carnage that had been done to the Lost. In it, they recorded their confessions and the events of their history that led up to the day when the Lodestones, once places of worship, were used to trap and harvest the Lost for their Dust. When Isyander discovered it (he was then in the role that Isyara holds, leading the Vodyani), the truth destroyed his faith and drove him to rebel against and almost destroy the Vodyani church. What the player gets to play out is whether or not his sister follows his path, or remains loyal...


Sadly, if that is not clear, it kind ruins the impact! I'll go back and look it over and clarify the choice where she has the change of heart.


-Slow



P.S. And yes, WeLoveYou, that is precisely how the Horatio quest line is supposed to be. I'm glad that one--for all its confusion--worked as intended!

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 9:43:16 AM

Thanks for the clarification Jeff! I actually agree with KreigorMoorkus when it comes to the clarity of the Vodyani quest, perhaps an extra sentence or two to convey Isyara's wavering faith in response to the discovered Endless atrocities would do the trick to really create a logical transition of her state of mind.

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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 10:30:11 AM

I am thankful you took the time to respond Jeff, and really appreciate it.

To be perfectly clear, I still think the writing in the game in general is good. And I understood what it was about, I just felt that as a reader, perhaps too much was left unmentioned to make it feel cohesive. Like dobyk said in the latest post, just that extra clarification of a transition is all I was missing.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 11:23:49 AM
Slowhands wrote:

Hi all, and as always thanks for your interest and curiosity.


[VERY LARGE SPOILERS]


The intent of the quest is precisely as it has been discussed and worked out by WeLoveYou--the Tabernacle was an object created by a small group of Endless who were horrified at the carnage that had been done to the Lost. In it, they recorded their confessions and the events of their history that led up to the day when the Lodestones, once places of worship, were used to trap and harvest the Lost for their Dust. When Isyander discovered it (he was then in the role that Isyara holds, leading the Vodyani), the truth destroyed his faith and drove him to rebel against and almost destroy the Vodyani church. What the player gets to play out is whether or not his sister follows his path, or remains loyal...


Sadly, if that is not clear, it kind ruins the impact! I'll go back and look it over and clarify the choice where she has the change of heart.


-Slow



P.S. And yes, WeLoveYou, that is precisely how the Horatio quest line is supposed to be. I'm glad that one--for all its confusion--worked as intended!

Thanks for the response Jeff. I've really be enjoying the web series. 

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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 3:12:21 PM

Thanks for the response, did not fully add up that Isyander was Hierarch before. Regarding the clarification, I think the main concern is that the critical choice seems to be made with whether to occupy or scan the Tabernacle system, but it's not clear that this is that choice.

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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 9:33:52 PM

To be honest, as someone who went the militant path the first time, I found the harsh transition in the faction quest fairly refreshing. The fact that Isyara went from 'time to tear apart this heresy' to 'now I don't know what to do' was fairly cathartic. Seeing a huge ego and broad worldview suddenly crash to the ground, as well as the struggle to replace it with something else, keeps with the overall theme of the Vodyani questline. Some clarification on the transition to make it more apparent as to what's happened wouldn't be amiss, but for what it's worth, the quest as it was when ES2 was released didn't feel incomplete to me.

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