I whole heartedly agree with the OP. The combat system seemed barebones around release and the devs were working at it ever since and it shows. Except I can't catch up because even if I read the patch notes and I get the general rock-paper-scissors concept, its application in practice still eludes me. It makes it hard to tell just how tough (and under what cicumstances) a fleet is, the enemy's or mine, so most of the time I just pick a fitting card (it's really either the vs projectile or the vs shields formation, the appriciation of most of the rest is beyond me) and hope for the best. Early on I fiddled with the ship placements but now I just stick to overpowering, even if I normally enjoy finesse and clever use of limited resources.

I think the best way to convey the information is to enhance the in-game overlay. There's already a cinematic option (which looks awesome) but the rest feel clunky, so skipping straight to a "math with visuals" mode would be the way to go I think. Anyone who really wants to understand combat will be able to stomach windows with calculations rolling through them, range indicators, flight paths, target priorities, everything (I doubt it's EVE Online levels of complicated). With a little determination and humility, everyone can re-watch their battles and learn from them, the mechanics just as much as the mistakes.

I've noticed one of the biggest things with the battles which is completely hidden, is the lanes and the paths the ships take. You can generally get the idea in the screen, but once you get into the battle it's not at all how it looks. You get the impression the enemy comes at you from the front, but they aren't, nor are the lines side by side with eachother at times.

This has caused me where two lanes who're supposed to be able to fire at eachother might not be possible. There's been times my ships in my lane ends up moving away, facing their back, making them unable to fire back at the middle lane, if say they're on the left one.

This is a huge issue I've found, cause the lanes and flottila movement is awesome, but it doesn't represent at all how it's presented in the info screen nor the loading one, and it's something that can be win or lose.

Overall, more information (the right type) needs to be added in the future. I'd also love if we could get a battle simulation outside of the campaign game, line a sandbox where you can pick battles, cards,  CP size, ships, modules and so on, then watch the fight. This would allow to give us more information and it'd allow us to actually tests weapons. This would've been so useful for balancing purposes instead of having to do guess work against AI or organize something with someone, which takes time.

Not just that, the ship battles look awesome and I wish I could enjoy them more, as it's rare you get a really cool even battle you'd wanna watch.

Gzar wrote:

It's better if you don't understand it. At least you can still have fun playing the game then.

When you do understand it and see how broken it is the game stops being fun.

Same for me here. Especially after reading your many comments on this topic Gzar, and seeing not much change over some time now  - I simply have a problem enjoying the game right now. I still bought the expansion, but until combat is adressed I won't be playing much I guess... :-(

I feel like this is a pretty big problem.  I'm jumping in again now that the Vaulters are back, and I remembered how disorienting ES2's combat was without a guide to tell you how it works.  If it's just going to be perpetually impenetrable, the complexity is superfluous and the player loses any enjoyment from it.

Space combat was really confusing to me first i started to play, then i undersoot all the mechanics and tricks. Now railgun and other stuff is added i am confused again :D

This is great. Thanks a lot.

Created this thread in the "Game Help" section.

Hope you find it usefull and if anything is missing or wrong let me know and I will edit the post.

There are so many that I don't believe there is a single place that holds all issues ;)

Just to name a few from the top of my head:

1) Ships not firing at other flotillas (depends on tactic and lane used).

2) Projectile / Energy defence imbalance

3) Missile / flak issues

4) Useless tactic cards

5) Range issues

6) Binary battles (you will all or lose all)

But they have been brought to the dev's attention and with time they will get addressed (hopefully).

I agree that we probably have a lot of changes ahead of us but still a short guide might be useful.
We would just have to mark the version for which it was made and maybe not go into huge details as those are most subject to change.

Gzar wrote:

It's better if you don't understand it. At least you can still have fun playing the game then.

When you do understand it and see how broken it is the game stops being fun.

Is there a list of all issues colleced somewhere?

Other than the designers I think there are maybe three people I would trust to put something like this together.  It would be great for sure.  As the combat system is incredibly complex and the problem is it needs to stabalize to a point.  If that happens and we get some combat polishing where everything is as intended and there is no super meta then it would be worth doing. The patches need to stop swinging the balance pendulum so far and steady before this is even attempted.  Being one of the few who understands it pretty well I can definietly see the OP point bigtime.  Many people introduced to multiplayer I would explain why they won or lost and how to conquer it.  Most were pretty amazed at the detail. 

I can see clearly the answer of this demand: We have to find someone out of community, that is skilled enough to immediately create a combat guide (pictures with examples included). So... let's get out the pitchforks !!!! 

Eh... sorry. Let's find these guys/ladies, ready to put some work in an understandable combat guide (and to update that stuff, in case something fundamental will change) ! Praise the volunteers ! Hey you ! Yeah you, exactly. You look like a genious, not ?

Slashman wrote:

 Not saying that it isn't worth doing, just that I can see why they want to stick to just making the game better rather than documenting the game.

Documenting is one thing. Having people quit, because they just are overwhelmed and have nowhere to turn to to get the hang is the another. A hidden features that noone knows exist, is essentially a waste of dev time overall. And it even does damage, if that feature is not just hidden, but confusing to a point that players quit. and go: "Too complex, don't get it... bad game.... *hastily writes bad stream review*... I get back to XYZ*

:)

You just hit on a problem that is common in Amplitude games. The long development play. So much changes after launch that making manuals which cover everthing is almost impossible because they can change so rapidly. I suspect we may see more combat tweaks and changes before the first quarter of the year is done.

Amplitude would need to have someone to specifically document and organize those changes and then put them into an in-game manual or reference wiki. That in itself would constitute a resource investment all its own. Not saying that it isn't worth doing, just that I can see why they want to stick to just making the game better rather than documenting the game.

Totally agree.
I have a grasp of the system only after reading a lot on the forums and looking / modifying the xml files for weapons / defences to create mod's.

Anyone that is new to the games doesn't have a chance of understanding what is happening.

Not to mention that things change and they don't always make it to the version change log.

I surrendered some months ago, to understand the combat mechanics, even I read many threads about. Since these days I play by intuition, what doesn't break the fun. Finally not really satisfactory. A good and understandable combat guide would be a gift. But I doubt someone would put work in it, as long as the combat mechanics are still changing from patch to patch - from my ignorant point of view.

I must agree with the general opinion here. In ES1, there's a wiki that tells you exactly how the combat works. It's only a shame that LR kinetcs are broken there, but that's beyond the point. I would greatly appreciate if the ES2 wiki had something similar, but I understand that if you are still trying to smooth over the combat mechanics you would be reluctant to set up a page for them. 

I fully agree with this. Likewise a lot of features are great but hidden to the newcomer, for example I had to look outside of the game to find a good terraforming guide with all the required information.

Having a big "info" button or something like the Civilopedia in Civ would be very helpful. I understand that there is the official wiki but while great for teasing and giving a first look it lacks the in detail informations.

I didn't even know you could move your ships around between flotillas till I watched a youtube vidio about it, 170hours into EL2 and about 200 into EL1, and that was new to me. 

I feel like the space combat is a guessing game. For example, if my 1 line is long range and the enemies 1 line is short range, what's the range then? Also I still haven't figured out how fighters and bombers work (what do they target, travel time, etc.), or how flak is supposed the defend against them (it never appears to fire at the fighters, just enemy ships).

TommyThunderbolt wrote:

I feel like the space combat is a guessing game. For example, if my 1 line is long range and the enemies 1 line is short range, what's the range then? 

Phase 1: long. 

Phase 2: medium.

Phase 3: short.

TommyThunderbolt wrote:

I feel like the space combat is a guessing game. For example, if my 1 line is long range and the enemies 1 line is short range, what's the range then? Also I still haven't figured out how fighters and bombers work (what do they target, travel time, etc.), or how flak is supposed the defend against them (it never appears to fire at the fighters, just enemy ships).

You should find this very usefull:

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forums/68-game-help/threads/29219-space-battle-guide-explanation-of-game-mechanics?page=1