Let me just state that I do enjoy this dialogue.

plutar wrote:

Golden age think of it this way.  If X building costs 120 industry or 1200 industry, golden age will earn me X industry over X amount of time in addition to it.  Because as you decrease gamespeed the cost of buildings goes up, the FDSI bonus's scale much higher the faster the game

Think of it like I will earn X amount FDSI in total that gives me what?  The longer the Golden age the more FDSI, but it gives much more on the faster speeds because the WHAT its giving is more impactful/costs exponentially less. 

Yes and yes. Still highest fidsi bonus in the game atm.
And it's FIDSI not just industry, it's that you can build a xenoindustral thingy probably faster than the race that begins with the tech researched, you can run the law easily in spite of not being pacifist gov, and you have some extra dust and pop growth in addition to that. You do not start with colony ships cause you don't have to.

Whatever the game takes away at slower speeds is further compensated by the fact that you can move fleets around instantly instead of producing new ones to react or agress. Portals scale heavily into slower speeds.

And Im talking about those who play large single player maps when I say low resource big galaxy.  On the buyout's they become extraordinarily expensive, they scale much worse on slow and endless (were talking over 10K dust to buyout your third colony) where as your sophon counterpart still has to build a colony at X industry and fly it send food ect.   I see your point, but as sophons you can have 3-4 outposts brewing.  With vaulters they are also more suseptable to pirates,  You arrive the turn you want to settle a system, pirates spawn ahh too bad :( .  You want to settle a system and your neighbors built a outpost there, aww too bad :(

How about instead of spending that boosted industry outpot on colony ships, you built mil ships at equal price? Pirates are susceptible to you. To other players you can play pirates while they produce colony ships. If you choose to and are withing reasonable range ofc. How much does it cost sophons to produce 4 colony ships, how much outpost growth food it costs? If that's the point in the game where you expand that highly, you can probably be winning by supremacy simply by rushing them with your idle hands and compensating your lack of expansion as a result.

Now, we do agree somewhere, material expertis, theres a trait that for 10 points gaurantees a worth while system leveling option.  I think this should be nerfed as its supposed to be a plan B not plan A, but thats me :( and I also believe this is where most of the RNG on normal galaxies seed the vaulters with a stronger start than most factions making them appear OP.

Yeah more FIDS with almost a gurantee is just so nice, too nice.

On fast, the colonization can be bought out (it never gets too expensive). On slow, the costs are insurmountable, by your 4th or 5th your colonizing at the identical speed as the unfallen vineing EXCEPT  you have no way to increase that speed other than make more money and X of both resources.  This unfallen colonization speed is assuming you have ONE vineship.  Unfallen by your 4th vineship your already able to colonize faster than vaulters.  I agree on normal speed in medium games the vaulters colonization rate is a bit to fast, but you increase that game size, and the costs become almost impossible to overcome.  The reason why is midgame when you have 3-4 outposts brewing with other empires, there you've still got just one, same timer.  If your playing a game where all you need is 4 colonies or so, well GG, vaulters will get you.  Your playing a game where the min is 10-12, well every other race will beat you to that number ten fold.  You'll find yourself having to invade to get to that number.

All vaulters need is 4 colonies to start an invasion, they don't even need to declare war.
Vaulters have craver-like start, they can easily get you while you are stuck investing into expansion, because they do not have to and on top of that can park portal next to you and crowdsource reinforcements faster.

Now I am not saying they don't need a small adjustment, but careful what we ask for (trade routes?)  heh

From lumeris perspective, i want trade routes back and relevant! :-D

The strat generation points, also keep in mind your talking .5 and 1 per turn of tier 1's.  It is not as impactfull as it seems.  Your average resource deposit is 3-5 and includes many abilities to increase that output.  Your vaulter hero, is giving you 1, per turn, of each, if you've dumped your two points in them.  And past midgame, you should be swimming in tier one in a normal resource game.  This ability is more impactful on low resource games, and worthless on high resource games, hence tieing vaulters some more to galaxy settings.

You don't have to take that ability as you stated, it's optional. And it is broken on maps where there simply is no hyperium. =D

The are being nerfed next patch that's already been stated, I just hope it isn't too much because they do struggle on different settings.  

Last "NERF" was -5 approval from the core worlds trait, I wonder what hides behind "light balance tweaks", but with the G2G balance mod hinting at federation buff I would not keep my hopes up.

And my point about the 6 player FFA, three of us had wars, the sophon player was able to defend with 2 seeker fleets bouncing back and fourth.  And victory on TURN 66 was the point... Can you tie that as a vaulter?  I can't (and they are a science heavy race).  Portals are important yes, but with admirals and fleets having 30+ movement speed really minimalizes portals.  

Hey guys, next turn science victory notification is up, how about we utilize our 30+ movement fleets and kill the sophons before they win? Nah, we are good, let's lose. Yeah, I do have to eat my words about science outpout being comparable, once you reach the endgame techs which no one should have got before sophons , they do have the advantage at that after all. Not to mention the +40% energy damage in energy weapon meta... Victory on turn 66 at normal speed is really god damn impressive though. Does not sound like a bad start to me. :-D
Also about the 30+ movement fleets, it's more about having n systems producing each ship at a time and then moving them all within one turn to one system and just assigning that hero. this scales insanely to game speeds where buyouts are unnafordable.

Also that hero's resources, if you play a low resource map and your relying on your hero for tier 1's, you can only afford 1 portal per 10 turns, and that doesn't even include regular empire expenses.  Or even include shipbuilding.  (the Portals cost 10 strategics of each).

Yeah, others can not afford anything, cause they simply don't have them at all, except for riftborn. How's that for balancing. Sure you gonna get stuck using pleb luxuries, but at least you can build hyperium improvements =D that's a big deal.

Golden age think of it this way.  If X building costs 120 industry or 1200 industry, golden age will earn me X industry over X amount of time in addition to it.  Because as you decrease gamespeed the cost of buildings goes up, the FDSI bonus's scale much higher the faster the game.

Think of it like I will earn X amount FDSI in total that gives me what?  The longer the Golden age the more FDSI, but it gives much more on the faster speeds because the WHAT its giving is more impactful/costs exponentially less. 

And Im talking about those who play large single player maps when I say low resource big galaxy.  On the buyout's they become extraordinarily expensive, they scale much worse on slow and endless (were talking over 10K dust to buyout your third colony) where as your sophon counterpart still has to build a colony at X industry and fly it send food ect.   I see your point, but as sophons you can have 3-4 outposts brewing.  With vaulters they are also more suseptable to pirates,  You arrive the turn you want to settle a system, pirates spawn ahh too bad :( .  You want to settle a system and your neighbors built a outpost there, aww too bad :(

Now, we do agree somewhere, material expertis, theres a trait that for 10 points gaurantees a worth while system leveling option.  I think this should be nerfed as its supposed to be a plan B not plan A, but thats me :( and I also believe this is where most of the RNG on normal galaxies seed the vaulters with a stronger start than most factions making them appear OP.

On fast, the colonization can be bought out (it never gets too expensive). On slow, the costs are insurmountable, by your 4th or 5th your colonizing at the identical speed as the unfallen vineing EXCEPT  you have no way to increase that speed other than make more money and X of both resources.  This unfallen colonization speed is assuming you have ONE vineship.  Unfallen by your 4th vineship your already able to colonize faster than vaulters.  I agree on normal speed in medium games the vaulters colonization rate is a bit to fast, but you increase that game size, and the costs become almost impossible to overcome.  The reason why is midgame when you have 3-4 outposts brewing with other empires, there you've still got just one, same timer.  If your playing a game where all you need is 4 colonies or so, well GG, vaulters will get you.  Your playing a game where the min is 10-12, well every other race will beat you to that number ten fold.  You'll find yourself having to invade to get to that number.

Now I am not saying they don't need a small adjustment, but careful what we ask for (trade routes?)  heh

The strat generation points, also keep in mind your talking .5 and 1 per turn of tier 1's.  It is not as impactfull as it seems.  Your average resource deposit is 3-5 and includes many abilities to increase that output.  Your vaulter hero, is giving you 1, per turn, of each, if you've dumped your two points in them.  And past midgame, you should be swimming in tier one in a normal resource game.  This ability is more impactful on low resource games, and worthless on high resource games, hence tieing vaulters some more to galaxy settings.

The are being nerfed next patch that's already been stated, I just hope it isn't too much because they do struggle on different settings.  

And my point about the 6 player FFA, three of us had wars, the sophon player was able to defend with 2 seeker fleets bouncing back and fourth.  And victory on TURN 66 was the point... Can you tie that as a vaulter?  I can't (and they are a science heavy race).  Portals are important yes, but with admirals and fleets having 30+ movement speed really minimalizes portals.  

Also that hero's resources, if you play a low resource map and your relying on your hero for tier 1's, you can only afford 1 portal per 10 turns, and that doesn't even include regular empire expenses.  Or even include shipbuilding.  (the Portals cost 10 strategics of each).

Funny you dont mention resource settings. Play a vaulters game on low density low resource and annomoly. Your ability to synergize your system development is bound to white resources, then increase the map size. You do that and by your seventh colony your unable to buyout because the cost scale is incredible. 

Further this with the slower speeds and your colonization rate is below all other races, exponentially worse based on gamespeed. 

You say golden age lasts longer the stronger it is? That is actually incorrect. Due to the faster gamespeeds reducing the cost of buildings golden age on fast accross seven turns is worth more buildings population than on normal and sloe due to buildings costing more and pop growth being slower as well on the different difficulties.

So vaulters low resource low density low speeds are terrible. The larger the galaxy the worse as well. Your ability to cherry pick is the counter to the tall style.

To make my point further, on fast medium medium density everything  spiral 8 with six human opponents on fast, the sophons hit scirnce victory with a bad start relatively 5/10. They hit victory on turn 66. Vaulters should be able to match that if they are so OP. If anybody can hit that with vaulters on fast please chime in with a SS I would love to eat my words. 

I am not saying the sophons are op anything but, but this should help iterate my point that the faction is more bound to settings than any other. All the factions should be equal on all settings IMO.

plutar wrote:

Problem is This factions power changes with gamespeed and galaxy settings, so your question is impossible to answer. 

Try answering it for each setting separately, let me show you how easily possible that is with for instance speed:

• on fast: Top starting fidsi, instant colonization which can potetially be free at cost of extra turns with return of longer golden age benefits, easily fastest early game colonization/expansion speed, portals to mass produce and combine fleets in early to endgame.
• on normal: fast + portals matter more cause buyouts are a lot less affordable + instant system pop seeding through portals gains a lot of value + hero power for strategics starts to matter more
• on slow:   normal + buyouts even less affordable and instant pop movement stronger + hero power matters even more
• on endless: slow + the same as in slow, but even more impactful because of the turn count, buyout cost, growth speed, etc.
  
  
• High anomaly count? - one of the highest achieveable probe per ship count together with horatio
  Normal? - "hurts" everyone the same.
  low? - hurts them least, 1 anomaly related quest, and it spawns the quest anomaly. Unlike vodyani who can struggle with their quest completion.
• High resource abundance? - benefits ridiculously from even heavier strategic abuse reaches high system tiers early. Can combat overcolonization faster, because of the close to guaranteed spawns of all strategic resources.
• Normal usually makes all required strategics available at a reasonable amount. Probably still more than luxuries. But then you do have to use them for ships too.
• Low - don't have a titanium or hyperium node in the entire constellation? Would be tough unless you had free instant colony ship and massive science output to easily rush movement outside your constellation, but still unlike ANY other race in game, your heroes also produce T1 strategics. Of course, riftborn would probably be better off here, but with everyone else being totally gimped and unable to produce for instance anything requiring hyperium, vaulters are still somewhat well off with some income and also quest rewards providing it.
  
  
• Map sizing - smaller maps empower the strength of your instant colonization as you can much faster outproduce and rush anyone. (it's not about can or can't, you outproduce everyone by default)
• Larger maps empower the strength of your portals.
• Same with constellations, either easy win with rush, or super portal abuse.
  
  
• Hotter planets? Cool industry! Perhaps could even opt for hyperium upgrade! Colder planets? Still enough industry from golden age to build up basic industry in ridiculously reduced time compared to others.
• Bad luxuries? Oh you don't care!
  
  
• Any setting - oh, +20% hp on fleet, let's have an even fight!

Meh so I went back and enjoyed the game with riftborn, and I gotta say,  they are on a pretty same power level, riftborn being even slightly better in some aspects thanks to the laws, MP output and singularities.

Sophons have somewhat weak start but can then compete with their scientific output and quest laws and discounts.

UE can roll well if they get the influence they need, and even without it are a fairly playable race.

Unfallen can grow OP provided they have allies to stack their bonuses to ridiculous levels.

Lumeris can expand well early on, however there is just no endgame for them currently available. Dust production is just sort of selfabuse and they just suck when compared to others. And trade companies are a joke on this patch and have been ever since the brutal nerf. Which was somewhat reasonable, but still brutal.

And finally Horatio has a really crappy start and because of that usually nothing to show for it.

So yeah, gotta admit I was wrong, they have a decent power level, it's the other races that need to catch up. Would be a shame to nerf them really. Just make others more competitive and playable. Really excited about that patch.
But then again, tell me which race can fit an ops hero ship with up to +40% fleet hp mods again? Right, Vaulters. Seriously, screw balancing.

While the newest addition to the game is awesome and all, there are multiple complaints and disagreements among the playerbase, whether they are not a bit too powerful.

I would like to create this post as a place of feedback, where if you vote in the poll, you should go ahead and reply with what do you think. While simply calling out "OP" might seem enough, I would also encourage you to write down suggestion as to what should be tuned down, and how much. (for example "+220 total starting FIDSI on start @fast seems too much to me and I suggest this value to be reduced" or "Maybe giving a quest reward that enables player to fit up hero ship with up 10% * defense slots, was not such a great balancing idea).
I have not found a similar post and have been actively encouraged to make one by peers on steam and in MP games.

I myself have written a deeply opinionated Vaulters guide on the matter, where I, while providing some tips, openly share my frustration with post-DLC faction balancing.

Thank you for your participation. Let us make a better game!

Yeah when it comes to fast speed, Vaulters besides the argosy cooldown can even wait for zero cost and still potentially colonize faster than pretty much everyone else.
I am saying colonize, not create outposts. This is a major difference. And I also need to stress that this is for free. Absolutely free. Every other faction has to invest something and most then send food and trade off their system growth.

What the golden age does is enable you to make a new colony instantly catch up to speed, at least somewhat, and post golden age you can also improve the system with readily available strategics over hoping for a good luxury RNG. And you already own industry related improvements you built with the golden age acceleration or have a portal to fill system with pop instantly.
This all combined makes for a major faction. A really good one. Could be for instance pilgrims because of the entire golden age mechanic. Even without the material expertise the instant colony + golden age would make these "Pilgrims" fairly good. Could give them something like + probes, faster movement, some shenanigans and this would make for a fairly balanced major faction.

Now you add portals on top of it and throws the entire balance in dissaray. I understand that these are *signature* abilities of the race, however it's strength is fairly difficult to evaluate depending on how far can player abuse it. Even the instant pop movement is a huge power if you can use it well. Although it is not as relevant considering golden age autofills one planet for you with 0 effort.

So from my standpoint I would even go as far to make a dedicated faction without portals with the golden age mechanic, and uplift minor pilgrims.
And then make a standard mechanics faction with portals as affinity. Kinda like UE but scientific as in ES1. Of course this is a fairly outlandish suggestion and would hurt the lore base, but would be more within the lore of the prequel.

You have a point Plutar.  I tend to play on Slow speed which I'm sure is lending significantly to how strong I feel their ability to cherry pick systems is.  That particular strength definately drops off the further you get into the game as the galaxy gets more crowded, but so far I haven't found myself needing to compromise much before hitting the system cap.  At faster speeds where expansions happens more rapidly in comparison to exploration that particular aspect of the Vaulters might not feel so strong.

Plutar has it right.

Vaulters are incredibly consistent at starting with a system development better than Jadeonyx. That will always give them an edge.