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The issue about Vodyani Arks and Vodyani in general.

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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 12:46:48 PM

Hi, I'm new to the game. I have played the first game a bit but Endless Space 2 is all new to me. And i just fell in love with Vodyani aesthetics and their style of play and mechanics. But as i understand their Arks has been nerfed some time ago and I do not think that was a good idea and let me tell you why. As you know Vodyani do not colonize systems in traditional way that other fractions do, instead they build their Arks so their Arks IS their colony in a sense, and yes I understand as people complained that Ark is a powerfull ship in the beginning of the game that could be used offensively. But this is so really if you get really lucky in the earlygame, namely you will need atleast TItanium to rig a TItanium Slugs A2S on an Ark but if you do not have it on your Homesystem you'll need to find in somewhere else (you also can buy it on the market, but you need technology and dust to do that, but still there just might not be any Titanium available on the market so even if you have good FIDS and good flow of Essence you still cant utilize them without strategic resources), and playing against Vodyani you shouldnt sell Titanium on the market in early game. But then you'll need Ark to sit in other system and extract resources wich means you'll need another Ark to utilize this Titanium and all this requieres Essence source of wich you may find near or you just aswell might run futile first 5-15 turns. So what i'm trying to say that it's all luck based.


The second thing is that other fractions may build upgrades in their systems that makes assaults on them much tougher like, bunkers and use heros to further boost colonys defence. But the Vodyani only have Arks wich you do not need to siege to destroy, you do not need manpower, you do not need to upgrade you ground forces and other things, all you need is to make a strong enough fleet and Arks goes bang in mid or lategame. All Vodyani player can do is to assign hero to an Ark and make a defending fleet in the system. But when you have more than seven stationary Arks it is impossible to hold such fleets in every system, upgrade fleets so they remain effective wich all drains you resources and you'll have to pay immense upkeep also. Why you need a fleet in every sys you might ask? Well becouse with Baryonic Shielding fleets can move free, and attack might happen anywhere and your Ark goes down in a single turn. But i doubt that you might assault a conventional colony with 2 or 3 thousands manpower, with tanks and jets just as easily, so defending side has a bit of time to organize a defence to repel the attack. Of course you could unancher the Ark but what is the point, in you loose all you FIDSI, well you lose everything, and even if you park it somewhere else other player might just chase you down and Ark is destroyed again. You can't be some space nomad in mid or lategame. 


So i have been wandering about it and i think there is a several things that might be done. 

  1. The first thing is that if the ark is anchored in system for 10 turns you have not only to battle it as a ship (when other player wins a fleet battle against an anchored ark it becomes Damaged and loses all it's combat capabilities and movement speed), but also you need to siege it like a planet. So Damaged Ark becomes incapacitated and vulnerable to other player to siege and destroy it. The Vodyani player might repair Ark with Essence and Dust. But if Ark is unanchored if it looses fleetbattle it goes down like any other ship. I think this would prevent players to risk their Arks.
  2. Give an anchored for 10 turns Ark a special ability that makes it inpossible to attack it for 2-5 turns, (call it Shield of Virtuals or Essence Shield) to activate this shield you'll have to use a large amount of Essence and/or Dust. Unatchored Arks cant use such shield.


Also Vodyani can't really compete for early game quests like finding ten anomalys and other small tasks, becouse the only thing Vodyani player is concerned at early stage is finding a source of Essence. Therefore you are at a disadvantage with the first major or minor civilization that you find, becouse when you take Essence from them you cannot develop good relations with them, like the other Civs can, witch worsens manpower problem that Vodyani have, and they desperately need manpower to crew their ships and invade others. Also minor civs spawns pirates but in order to get Essence Vodyani have to sit in the system with their Leecher and defend it against the pirates, so you have to have very early military in order to not lose you only Lifeline - the Leecher, wich again wastes you turns building soon-to-be-obsolete-ships in time that you could have been building Public-Private Partnerships or Cerebral Reality or any other early game buildings. And the first Vodyani personal quest that spawns even more pirates on you head doesn't help either.


I understand that Vodyani mechanic and playstyle revolves around exploiting of others and expanding, but if you go against just as powerfull or more powerfull civs than you like Cravers or Unfallen you just cannot defend youreself, there just no way to do so.


So this is my thoughts on the game so far, it could be that i'm just a novice and do not understand everything properly, but I do not think Vodyani that strong really, those whos saying that they are strong just can't optimize their own strategies against them and they need to get good. Anyway, there it is. 


Oh by the way another thing.

When Vodyani takes out a system or crush a minor civ the system just goes in neutral state, when everyone could colonize it, and I suspect Lumeris can take anvantage of that and just put an outpost there right under Vodyani nose. I think that you sould not be allowed to colonize system until a fleet stays there and protects the system, or while Vodyani Hunting Ground is taking place. Can someone correct me on that?



P.S.  Sorry for my English, is is my second language. I'd post it in my native Russian section of forum but i do not know if you even read it.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Mar 27, 2018, 3:02:09 PM

I agree that there needs to be a distinction between anchored and unanchored Arks, and I think there is a need to apply the available resources differently to the Shipbound trait the Vodyani have. I don't know about having that sort of Shield apply to lock out a system like that, but it is certainly an option to discuss and explore.


Here are some ideas I've been imagining for some time now:

  • Change up Research Techs so that they can be more unique in how Manpower applies to their faction, at least in how it relates to defending an Ark anchored to a system, I've been thinking on ideas that make use of what exists in the game, in a different manner.
    • One possibility is modify how Vodyani relate to Invasions through applying Manpower Related systems differently to Ship Bound. 
      • The Vodyani when invading, could instead of landing forces on the surface of planets, choose to remain in their Fleet leeching the essense of the Invaded populace and military protecting them, so if the Vodyani can collect the Essense tapped during an Invasion, then there could be some tweaks here and there for balancing that out.
      • So could have a Ship Bound exclusive Ship Support Module that works like Titanium A2S Slugs for when they are attacking another faction, similar to how OpGear grants manpower, where the Vodyani are draining Essense during the Invasion that drains the system of their defensive capabilities, like a standard Invasion.
      • If the Vodyani want to finish an Invasion Quicker, I think that Essense should be drawn from directly in like a purging fire sort of manner, I welcome feedback on this point, as Fleet and Empire Manpower could still have a separate aspect here in how Essense works.
      • Instead of having Manpower to Supply Ships and Systems with Infantry, Tanks and AirCraft, and allowing a Vodyani system to be Invade-able like other factions, Manpower could supply Space-based Mines (filling in for Infantry and could be one Mine costs 5 Manpower each), a System-wide Satellite Beam Weapon Network (filling in under Tanks, with each Satellite costing 15 Manpower), and Interceptor Squadrons (making use of 20  Manpower each). So, when Fleet Combat occurs against an anchored Ark, all three systems can be active and support in Fleet Combat, with the AirCraft acting like Fighter Squadrons using that one Battle Card, Fleet Escort. So unanchored, could have it where Arks do not deploy the Mines or the Satellite Network, but might be able to deploy the Interceptors as it would be a level 4 tech and could act as a Ship Support Module.
      • As such, An enemy Fleet attacking the Vodyani could sap Fleet and Empire Manpower, reducing these when engaging an Anchored Ark, and each Ark would want to invest in increased Capacity to be able to field more Mines, Satellites and Interceptors as current Force (Troops Breakdown) works, just working in Fleet Engagments instead of Planetary Invasion.
  • So with such changes, I'd also allow the Vodyani to have Specializations exist in the Star System Management area, and so Ship Modules in the Ship Design Menu are there for Combat Applications; and the Vodyani would then make use of their own Specializations related to being Ship Bound. And here is where there can be new Ship Modules that could have one set of bonuses for an anchored Ark and bonuses for unanchored and the bonuses would be like on a coin exclusive from each other to help sustain balance, like having Mines and Beam Satillites when Anchored, and adding exclusively Escorting Interceptor Craft that draws from Fleet and Empire Manpower.
  • I've noticed that if the Vodyani could have a similar mechanic to Ecologists, where they could make use of every planet in a System (at reduced efficiency too), then maybe that could provide them enough of an early game boost that they need. As there seems to be an issue with the negative Food stat with the Vodyani, I was assuming that a less efficient access to planets like Ecologists have could work as an alternative for the Vodyani I was imagining somewhere in the range of 33 to 45% penalty, compared to Ecologist's 25% penalty in either Gargantuan Population, or maybe a new Population Trait or connected to Ship Bound.


I wonder what others think about these ideas, and if they could be of benefit to the Vodyani, without making them OP.

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7 years ago
Mar 29, 2018, 7:37:36 PM

First, the vodyani arks strength now directly tied with system developement. They still can be very potent weapons especially once you hit system level 2. The checks are tied to empire development and science trees. The arcs were nerfed because before the strength of an arc was Unstoppable early game. A ship bound faction if it started next to another faction was able to very easily destroy said faction. Now the arcs are much more fragile early game which is a good thing. They should be protected and they should be vulnerable, however they now suffer from a huge Manpower problem due to how food and Manpower generation function. I don't know what the fixes I would love a happy medium, however in multiplayer they are one of the stronger factions given good RNG however they are one of the worst and given bad RNG. You can negate this bad by moving but some situations you're not able to do that.

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