I'm tired of getting right to the point of assimilating a minor faction to have the AI swoop in and grab them.  The AI shouldn't have the knowledge of what turn I'll be able to do it.  If the AI has the ability to assimilate a minor faction, it should do it as soon as it can.  It's a frustrating design for the player and makes the AI weaker.

It's also frustrating that you can't know what sort of standing a minor faction has with other major factions. I mean how are you supposed to plan around that? One minute I can be best friends with a minor faction, the next minute it's been assimilated.

stl0369 wrote:

I'm tired of getting right to the point of assimilating a minor faction to have the AI swoop in and grab them.  The AI shouldn't have the knowledge of what turn I'll be able to do it.  If the AI has the ability to assimilate a minor faction, it should do it as soon as it can.  It's a frustrating design for the player and makes the AI weaker.

How does it make the AI weaker?  And I can't say I've noticed this behavior. The AI takes factions when it is ready not when you are about to necessarily.

Also there are lots of good reasons for the AI and players to wait to take a faction. And you can collect free FIDSI from them for as long as you have a relationship with them.

Countless times, the AI has assimilated a faction right as I have enough influence to do so.  In my last game, I had a quest to settle next to a planet to claim it.  It was far away and close to the AI, so I left it (I was playing the UC).  The AI (Vaulters) were already the suzerain by the time I started the quest.  Eventually I decided to go for it.  It was a 16 turn hack to get a sanctuary next to it.  They claimed it the turn before my hack got to the planet next to it.

This was still in the moderately early game and the Vaulters would have benefited more from taking the minor civilization system then from claiming the free FIDSI.  There are very very few times the FIDSI are more important than taking the minor for the AI.  The happiness penalties are small for them and the bonus FIDSI they get make the small FIDSI boost fairly irrelevant.  Add in the bonus from assimilating a minor faction and the AI should always assimilate when it can.

Hey there,

I think I should clear a misunderstanding or two.

I'm tired of getting right to the point of assimilating a minor faction to have the AI swoop in and grab them.  The AI shouldn't have the knowledge of what turn I'll be able to do it.

Actually, the AI doesn't have knowledge of it. It doesn't automatically assimilates the minor faction with a theoretical "magic button" whenever you get close to assimilating the minor. Like any player, the AI Praises/Bribes the minor faction, invests time and Influence/Dust. 

If the AI has the ability to assimilate a minor faction, it should do it as soon as it can.

It does, unless it has approval and overcolonization issues. Assimilating the minor faction is always the objective of the AI. As Slashman wrote, "The AI takes factions when it is ready, not when you are about to". 

It's also frustrating that you can't know what sort of standing a minor faction has with other major factions.

You can always see which faction is the minor's suzerain on the minor faction's diplomacy screen.

Another thing to note is that the AI will focus on one minor faction at a time, so it's normal that some assimilations occur at a later time.

If the AI doesn't or even can't do those things, then I need to send in more bug reports.  In at least two games, I've seen AIs assimilate incredibly quickly.  I've seen minors that don't have a suzerain in my system have an AI probe pass over it and be assimilated the next turn more than once.  These cases happened so incredibly early in the game, I'm confident the AI had found them that turn.

If the AI has the ability to assimilate a minor faction, it should do it as soon as it can.

It does, unless it has approval and overcolonization issues. Assimilating the minor faction is always the objective of the AI. As Slashman wrote, "The AI takes factions when it is ready, not when you are about to". 

The thing is, Minor Factions give very nice bonuses early in the game like dust and science. I find myself wanting to rather KEEP them as allies or friendly for a while to get the extra dust and science. However, we have to race against the AI to claim them. Abilities were put in like development grants, but they are RARELY used because you have to rush to get the civ before the AI does. Tweaks to this would be very welcome I think so we have a choice of how minor civs are handled. The AI should't be programmed to rush for them.

It's also frustrating that you can't know what sort of standing a minor faction has with other major factions.

You can always see which faction is the minor's suzerain on the minor faction's diplomacy screen.

Another thing to note is that the AI will focus on one minor faction at a time, so it's normal that some assimilations occur at a later time.

This isn't what players want to see... we want details. Everything else is highly detailed with information except for this. We want to know WHO we are competing against and how many points they have. When I have 120 points with a minor civ and then suddenly an AI overtakes me. How?? After 100 you cannot praise anymore and there is no way to get more than +1/turn. So what is going on and how did they do it? More information regarding various major civs and their standing with minor civs is highly needed. This helps plan on where to focus influence, bribes. military... many things.

In the end, minor civs need a lot of love. I see posts about it often on different forums and plenty of stuff here. Better assimilation mechanics, more detailed information on what the status is with other major civs and where you stand (think Civ 6 and city states... you can see how many envoys everyone has so you know where you stand), slower relationship building for sure... I can scout 2 curiousities and praise up to +5 and then assimilate in like less than 10 turns..., and a lot less rat racing to try and get them ASAP and basically ignoring some of the cool mechanics they have like dev grants or the military usage. 

Takarazuka wrote: After 100 you cannot praise anymore and there is no way to get more than +1/turn. So what is going on and how did they do it?

Like I do, I guess. Before hitting 100 relationship with minor faction I boost the per turn improvement by praying multiple times. So relationship improves a lot for many turns past hitting the 100.

Groo wrote:

Takarazuka wrote: After 100 you cannot praise anymore and there is no way to get more than +1/turn. So what is going on and how did they do it?

Like I do, I guess. Before hitting 100 relationship with minor faction I boost the per turn improvement by praying multiple times. So relationship improves a lot for many turns past hitting the 100.

If that is what the AI is basically doing... every turn spending ALL of their influence/dust/what-have-you on a single minor civ... then that is also poorly designed. While each AI is focusing on a single minor civ, according to what Oriolie said earlier, we as a human player are having to try and focus multiple at a time. Sure, I get plenty of minor civs assimiliated, but plenty of other times I get them sniped away from me with no warning. This is why we need a visual representation of accumulated influence for each major faction that a minor civ has contact with. As well as a redesign of how the AI handles minor civs so they can be relevent in a game beyond just another future colony that you need to snag ASAP.

Takarazuka wrote:

If the AI has the ability to assimilate a minor faction, it should do it as soon as it can.

It does, unless it has approval and overcolonization issues. Assimilating the minor faction is always the objective of the AI. As Slashman wrote, "The AI takes factions when it is ready, not when you are about to". 

The thing is, Minor Factions give very nice bonuses early in the game like dust and science. I find myself wanting to rather KEEP them as allies or friendly for a while to get the extra dust and science. However, we have to race against the AI to claim them. Abilities were put in like development grants, but they are RARELY used because you have to rush to get the civ before the AI does. Tweaks to this would be very welcome I think so we have a choice of how minor civs are handled. The AI should't be programmed to rush for them.

It's also frustrating that you can't know what sort of standing a minor faction has with other major factions.

You can always see which faction is the minor's suzerain on the minor faction's diplomacy screen.

Another thing to note is that the AI will focus on one minor faction at a time, so it's normal that some assimilations occur at a later time.

This isn't what players want to see... we want details. Everything else is highly detailed with information except for this. We want to know WHO we are competing against and how many points they have. When I have 120 points with a minor civ and then suddenly an AI overtakes me. How?? After 100 you cannot praise anymore and there is no way to get more than +1/turn. So what is going on and how did they do it? More information regarding various major civs and their standing with minor civs is highly needed. This helps plan on where to focus influence, bribes. military... many things.

In the end, minor civs need a lot of love. I see posts about it often on different forums and plenty of stuff here. Better assimilation mechanics, more detailed information on what the status is with other major civs and where you stand (think Civ 6 and city states... you can see how many envoys everyone has so you know where you stand), slower relationship building for sure... I can scout 2 curiousities and praise up to +5 and then assimilate in like less than 10 turns..., and a lot less rat racing to try and get them ASAP and basically ignoring some of the cool mechanics they have like dev grants or the military usage. 

Got to agree 110% with this, I really dislike how it's a race to claim the minor factions a lot of the time. What i'd like to see:

1. Praising/bribing/whatever a minor factions gives you +x points per turn and applies the same as a penalty to increases, (but not current score), spread out evenly amongs every other faction thats got a score above 0 with them. Thus only the player who's investing most heavily in the faction over a long period of time will see their score remain highest. 

2. Everyone with a score above the minimum threshold gets some resources with reletive score determaning how much.

3. Only the Suzerian can assimilate the minor faction but asimilation has an lump resource cost that grows the more a faction has been bribed/praised/whatever. Directly taking them over rather than by quest significantly increases this.

4. All Minor factiosn also count as a half value trade subsidiary once trading becomes avalibile. This dissappears once they're assimilated, (it is a primitive form of subsidiary after all).

I'm not sure that this is necessary. Minor factions are supposed to be transitory. And they inevitably turn into major factions' systems that you can then sieze for yourself if need be. Past the early game, they are not super critical and I don't think developemnt time should be spent trying to fix something that really isn't broken.

Also, the AI fnally have an advantage that they do better than humans and its a problem? I've been trying for years to give them an edge that isn't tied to strategic bonuses.

I like the system for minor factions as it is too.  I find it a nice race in the early game.

I'll still try and start sending in bug reports on funky assimilations though.

Ummm. They wreck your economy? They provide extra dust and science and manpower...that isn't madatory to anybody expect perhaps the Vodyani. Losing them makes you take a hit sure, but it is not that which ruins your economy. Your economy was weak before the minor faction came into play if that is the case.

In any case, I don't recall seeing this complaint from anyone playing the game before so I can't agree that it is a major issue that should soak up dev time.