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Pirates: Behavior&spawning patterns

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6 years ago
May 10, 2019, 9:09:18 AM

In my attempt to master early game Unfallen, i have tried to understand the spawning and behavioral patterns of the pirates. I did a lot more 30-60 turn playthroughs, rather than complete games, often recording the pirate spawns time and position wise.


Through this experience i have found myself confused and concerned by the way the system seems to be working. 

NOTE: I play at endless pirates and i understand that this is responsible for most of my troubles. At the same time some of the issues have nothing to do with difficulty and therefore i still wanted to create this discussion.


To sum up the info i have collected:

1. Spawning happens on turn 11, with some rng regarding position, never less than 2 jumps from home systems.

2. Respawn can happen as soon as turn 17, usually by 21 at the latest. A similar patten continues for the next few dozen turns.

3. First pirate fleet spawns 1 turn after 1st lair spawn. Next spawn is 8-11 turns later

4. The strength of these fleets slowly scales up to 500, but after turn 25 you can expect 1100-1800 strength fleets to start popping up.

5. Each first lair spawn's strength relies on the lair level, but also has a indipendent variability. So a second level lair  for example can still spawn a pretty weak-and easily destroyed fleet.

But their power increases with each generation.

6. In general the pirates fixate on Unfallen vineships, but rarely siege systems for more than 1 or 2 turns at most, usually runinng back and forth between colonies.

7. The fleets dont move far from their lairs, usually 1-2 jumps at most.



Concerns:

1. Sometimes the spawn rng places 2 lairs close to each other, creating insane pressure on the unlucky faction/player.

2. I have seen fleets get extra ships indipendent of the lair fleet spawns. I actually saw a fleet with 3 small pirate ships, obtain a medium hull with 9 turns remaining n the lair fleet spawn timer.

3. Respawns that happens the turn after a lair is destroyed is so demoralizing, it makes you feel you ar being punished for clearing it, especially when the lair spawns at higher level, needs a lot more manpower than what you have on the current fleet, and a new fleet spawn is unavoidable.

4. I have seen lairs spawn pirates when a hack-sabotage supplies is applied-the fleet spawned on that very moment, not even a turn after.


Suggestions:

1. Make lairs less rng both in time and positioning, to account for concerns 1&3

2. Give pirates objectives and rewards for completing them, or penalties when factions prevent them from doing so. 

3. Make lair destruction have a possibility to give rewards, like modules, temporary effects or technologies, depending on its level.

4. Make lairs apply temporary or permanent but ranged based effects on neighrboors the longer they exist.

The above will make pirates more than an annoyance you can ignore outside of pirate marks, vastly reduce the danger difference between those 2 situations as well as bad rng impact, Incentivise players to actually seek them out and destroy them, and in general make the overall experience feel a lot more immersive and interesting.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
May 10, 2019, 9:59:23 AM

I think you are right m8. The lairs spawn to close to each other very often and it's very difficult for the early game factions. Sry for the mistakes but i still learn english :)

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6 years ago
May 10, 2019, 11:10:43 AM

I agree whith your observations. 

In cases where more then one major factions start out in each cluster, I have also observed another issue: Oftentimes the first pirate layers for both factions, which spawn per major faction in the galaxy, if I understood correctly, will spawn directly next to each other and then focus on one of the two factions putting it at a severe disadvantage against its neighbour.

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4 years ago
Aug 7, 2020, 6:37:17 PM

This doesn't seem to be any better a year later based on my playing. I just watched a Let's Play by GUD since I was curious to see if a streamer has talked about this, but... he plays the game on Fast Speed. You can see from his video that pirates aren't balanced for speed.  So they're much easier to play against on Fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIVUEkhRhk


So here's your workaround for an easier Unfallen early game: play on fast :-/


That being said, you didn't mention the idea of paying off the pirates.  If you can get your hacks through and get some dust, this seems to be the best way to deal with them as Unfallen.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Jan 5, 2021, 7:35:23 PM

Yup. Still broken. 

I was really hoping these issues would be resolved, as it is I just play without pirates. Having them usually makes a 4x game more varied and adds a level of unpredictability and adds to your strategic planning. However, the way the spawning currently works in ES2 just adds frustration. 

The spawning seems to occur without regard for any other game mechanic -- You'd think if you destroyed a base so you could colonize the planet, and left the fleet that destroyed it there, that two turns later a stronger pirate base wouldn't suddenly appear the turn your colony ship arrives and blocks colonization... (and be just strong enough that you need to add more shipbuilding to dislodge them again)  

Tell me how is it that a pirate organization can suddenly appear with a base strong enough to challenge a multi-system faction government?? It would take the government ignoring the issue, or suddenly finding it in a newly discovered system. Not suddenly appearing two systems away irregardless of any other consideration than whether the system was already owned... if the orgs were actually that powerful why not just dump Pirate based anywhere, occupied system or not?


I just turn it off, and if I couldn't I wouldn't play the game as much as I love it.


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3 years ago
Jul 2, 2021, 10:35:48 AM

It's not broken. Works just fine.

- The pirates only spawn in unoccupied space that isn't under anyone's influence.

- You can actually see the timer on the pirate lair that says in how many turns next fleet spawns.

- You can see the progression of the level up of the lair. 

- You can delay the spawning or make the next fleet weaker through diplomacy or hacking.

- You can get an insane amount of goods from the lair by hacking or clearing it out. The higher level the lair, the better the goods.

- Even on lvl 5 (which is max), they are not that strong, just about 3.5k attack strength. You can reliably beat them with 3-4 medium ships and a hero. Or you can rush them earlier with 5-6 small attack ships. Which you should have anyway if playing on Endless difficulty.

- Even on lvl 5 the lair has just 950 manpower, and they only have infantry and no upgrades. Bring 600-800 manpower in tanks (can be researched quickly) and you only need 3-4 medium ships or 6-8 small ships for that and you can kill them comfortably.

- You can send them against an opponent with the pirate mark, they won't pester you then.

- You can become friendly through hacking or diplomacy.

- You can have nonaggression for influence as Vaulters and use the lairs as portals - super useful.

- Pirates are fun early game aspect of the game that you gain from much more than the "trouble" they are making. Battles with them are always winnable if you pick the correct card and distribute your flotillas well.

- They are actually more trouble for the AI than they are ever for the player.

- Turning them off is an option - although it is an option for the weak xD Not to mention if you turn them off nothing checks AI expansion.

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