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A very well written article about 4X games - sums up my current feelings exactly

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5 years ago
Jan 21, 2020, 1:54:59 AM

I'll just link it here because you can all read it on your own:

The Curious Case of 4X Games, Efficiency Engines, and Missing Strategic Gambits


But I would like to say that I've been feeling this for a while now too, for all my 4X games, not just ES2.

  • Decoupling production from nearly everything
  • Coupling victory conditions to lore - and other ways to utilize lore better (This is specifically interesting to me since ES2 has such amazing lore!)
  • Better end game decision making, etc.
  • Increased depth of strategy and tactical manuvers in battles
  • and much more

There is so much right in this article and I just thought everyone might enjoy it.


P.S. - I put this in Game Design as it is wholely related just that, ES2 is even mentioned in the article, so mods keep that in mind please.



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5 years ago
Jan 21, 2020, 6:22:35 AM

Great article - he posted on the 4X reddit and I responded to it there.

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5 years ago
Jan 21, 2020, 12:58:58 PM

I don't think the article is fair toward 4X genre. They don't want a game in which everyone starts on, more or less, equal terms and then have to battle it out, it looks more like they want a narrative-driven game with empire building as a theme, with something always hiding behind the corner to keep you on your toes. That's cool, I'd love to play that game, but it's not necessarily what I'm looking for in a 4X.


'Imagine losing opponent clicking 'ha! I win!' button, wouldn't that be cool?' No, not to me, at least. This is why I dislike forced endgame crisis some other games try to introduce. I don't want to suddenly play with different ruleset, because I was doing well within the old rules. I'm far from saying that ES2 always delivers a satisfying endgame, but I have much less faith in games that need to grab a hammer and whack you with it to provide it. Not to mention it tends to turn into a game of 'prepare for the big endgame f*ck you'.


Eador is an interesting twist on the formula, as despite having plenty of opponents to duke it out with, there's more to do in PvE, every province has dozens of lairs, treasure sites and whatnot, often providing better challenge than your rivals (though they are spoonfed experience to keep up with the player, so there's that). The lategame is fantasy equivalent of fields of Verdun most of the time, though.

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5 years ago
Jan 21, 2020, 1:37:22 PM

It all fine to write something like that article but this guy is obviously not a designer or maker of games. 


There are a couple of reasons that his vision won't come true easily. 


1) The same community who keeps asking for these changes is the same community that fights like hell against any major shake-ups to their precious formula. Take Hacking for instance. It was certainly not the usual spying mechanic that 4x games have come to know or expect. But because a player couldn't perfectly defend against it or predict the exact out come there was a huge outcry about it. And it doesn't stop there. Every time there is a major change coming down the pipeline for the way things work in 4x games, the community turtles up and shakes their collective fist because they cannot perfectly control an aspect of the game...all the while groaning about subpar AI. 


2) All the changes you want to make to the forumla cannot be encapsulated into a single 4x game. This is important because we've gotten so used to asking for more and more and more...that we don't stop to think about how complicated and complex this makes a 4x game. And we still want a competent AI on top of that. 4x game developers should be choosing specific aspects to focus on and ignoring the rest to make a focused 4x experience...not all-inclusive. It's nice that you want to add a peaceful faction that survives by singing kumbya across the galaxy...but if its surrouned by factions that want to eat its face it is going to fall.


3) Which again brings me to my third point. Sword of the Stars was an excellent game for its time. It didn't pretend to be a micromanagement simulator where you moved population pips around in your planets to make the perfect setup. It was about war. And it had a totally random tech tree (some techs were core) that could continually surprise a player with what they got. And they had to play the hand that they were dealt. It was the same for players and AI alike. (Oh and it had diplomacy that worked and made sense). It had races that were totally different and had differing methods of FTL...I have not seen any 4x game since then do that. That is because we all want to shove more and more crap into the games we play so that everyone can have exactly the experience that that they want. Except that that particular game is a pipe-dream. There is no one-size fits all 4x because inevitably some aspects will suffer and be left to flounder while other aspects are played up. But the more we stuff into a 4x game, the more diluted all the other aspects will be.


So to conclude, it is the very 4x community that is dampening the creativity and innovation in 4x games. Along with the developers who cannot say no this will not be a part of the game ever and concentrate on the things that it can do well. We need to get back to making 4x games for diverse audiences so that we can have the diversity of gameplay that we all say we want. But it cannot be in a single game.

Updated 5 years ago.
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