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A Wiki Maintainer wants to ask the Devs about some obscure mechanics

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7 years ago
Dec 9, 2017, 10:19:45 AM

I've been doing a huge amount of updates to one of the ES2 wikis; documenting all the minor civs, all the ship loadouts, all the population collection bonuses.  Most of this is complete, and I've got a few things I can't figure out - some of them I probably can't even figure out in testing, because the situations that involve them are rare, other ones I just haven't gotten around to (I barely play Cravers, so I haven't looked at their numbers in depth).


Here's the list:

  • The Vodyani have a "-50% food production malus".  Is this cumulative within a system?  I.e. if you've got two Vodyani pops in a system, is your food growth reduced by 75%?  And then 87.5% for 3 Vodyani, etc, etc?   Or is it just a one-time 50% penalty, and that's it?


  • Similarly, the Cravers have a "150% FIDS bonus" - firstly, does this affect all FIDS produced on the planet (the final sum of all the population and building modifiers), or does it just affect the "base" production of the planet itself?   That is to say, you may have a "forest" planet that produces 8 food per pop, and additional buildings giving a 12 food per pop bonus.   Does the Craver bonus give (8 * 1.5) + 12, or does it give (8 + 12) * 1.5?


  • Similarly, Cravers have a Malus when a planet is depleted.  I know it affects the base per-pop yield from the planet type itself.   I think that depletion has no effect on "system"-based food boosts (like the basic Sustainable Agriculture building that gives +10 food on a system), but it's not clear to me if it reduces "per pop" bonuses like the +4 food per pop benefit from "Epigenetic Crop Seeding".  Could you clarify that?


  • The Z'Vali custom law is listed in the game files (thank you so much for using an accessible format like XML rather than binary files!) as causing a system to have a "0% blockade impact factor".   What does this do?   I expect this prevents FIDS from being lowered, but the really important thing I'm trying to figure out is - does this prevent manpower from being lost?  I.e. enemy ships in orbit will gradually sap your garrison strength, and they can do it quickly with Titanium A2S Slugs, but does the Z'Vali law prevent that?  If it does that's really awesome, because that justifies it balance-wise;  otherwise the "preventing a minor and negligible FIDS loss upon blockade" is very underwhelming.


  • When you conquer a system, at what level of ownership are you able to start refilling your fleet's manpower when orbiting the conquered system?  It seems like you can't immediately do this (your ships will get the immediate refill from any of your surviving assault-troops, but then they'll sit there without refilling any more).  Obviously if you own the system completely, it refills just fine, but, what's the cutoff? - is it just a 1-2 turn thing after their influence-ring disappears, or does it take a certain percentage before you're allowed to refill manpower?

Thanks in advance for all the help!


I'm sorry about pointing this at the Devs in particular, I just wouldn't be surprised if some of these things, like the Z'Vali law, are unknown to the entire playerbase or are just "wild guesses" on everyone's part.  I'd love to hear answers from anyone, I'm just hoping to have someone answer it with certainty so we can permanently document it for the playerbase, and put any 'urban legends' about how it works to rest. 

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 10, 2017, 3:01:24 AM
JetFighter wrote:
  • The Vodyani have a "-50% food production malus".  Is this cumulative within a system?  I.e. if you've got two Vodyani pops in a system, is your food growth reduced by 75%?  And then 87.5% for 3 Vodyani, etc, etc?   Or is it just a one-time 50% penalty, and that's it?

Can you go to a system with two Vodyani population and just mouseover the food tooltip (copy all the values into a spreadsheet), move one Vodyani population into the starport, mouse over the food tooltip again (copy into a spreadsheet), then move one more Vodyani population into the starport, and check one last time?  Then with three columns worth of data, devise a model.  Vodyani is actually the last of the eight major civilizations that I have to go, so I don't know the answer off the top of my head.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 10, 2017, 3:10:34 AM
JetFighter wrote:
  • Similarly, the Cravers have a "150% FIDS bonus" - firstly, does this affect all FIDS produced on the planet (the final sum of all the population and building modifiers), or does it just affect the "base" production of the planet itself?   That is to say, you may have a "forest" planet that produces 8 food per pop, and additional buildings giving a 12 food per pop bonus.   Does the Craver bonus give (8 * 1.5) + 12, or does it give (8 + 12) * 1.5?


  • Similarly, Cravers have a Malus when a planet is depleted.  I know it affects the base per-pop yield from the planet type itself.   I think that depletion has no effect on "system"-based food boosts (like the basic Sustainable Agriculture building that gives +10 food on a system), but it's not clear to me if it reduces "per pop" bonuses like the +4 food per pop benefit from "Epigenetic Crop Seeding".  Could you clarify that? 

In addition to the five FIDSI tooltips that you can read off at the system level, there are also five FIDSI tooltips at the top of each planet in a system.  For the cravers, this is where the bonus and malus are applied (if I recall correctly).  In particular, this is the best way to compute the 'per population unit' bonuses that your empire and system improvements are registering.  For example, if you hover over a planet tooltip for industry, and it says something like 100 from population (note that contributions from specific population units get their own breakout) and there are 5 population units on the planet, then you know that for that specific planet, there is a 20 industry per population being applied.  You can then backtrack through all the applicable planet specializations, system specializations, etc. to make sure the numbers all add up.  If they don't, you can then file a bug report ^_^.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 10, 2017, 3:57:35 AM

Okay, I fired up my PC and loaded my Cravers save game to hunt down a system with and without depleted planets.



The 221 industry tooltip from the Lupus I planet which is not depleted shows a 104 base.  Since there are four population units on the planet, that means the planet does 104 / 4 = 26 industry per population.  This 26 comes from:


10 from Gas Warm Planet

1 from Quadrinix Deposit

0 from Edenization Specialization (always remember to double check the planet specialization)

1 from Interplanetary Transport Network (base)

3 from Interplanetary Transport Network (strategic deposit present)

2 from Microwave Pipes

4 from Fabrication License

5 from Hazardous Mining Facility


10 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 5 = 26


Now note that the tooltip has 78 from enslaved populations.  On that particular planet, there are three enslaved population units.  Since slavery is a 100% bonus, 3 * 26 * 1 (1 = 100%) = 78 industry.


Also note that the tooltip has 39 from craver depletion.  On that particular planet, there is exactly one craver population unit.  The craver FIDS (doesn't include influence) bonus is 150%, 1 * 26 * 1.5 (1.5 = 150%) = 39 industry.



The 74 industry tooltip from the Lupus III planet which is fully depleted shows a 40 industry base.  Since there are five population units on the planet, that means the planet does 40 / 5 = 8 industry per population unit.  This eight comes from:


0 from Gas Temperate Planet

1 from Quadrinix Deposit

0 from Edenization Specialization

1 from Interplanetary Transport Network (base)

3 from Interplanetary Transport Network (strategic deposit present)

2 from Microwave Pipes

4 from Fabrication License

5 from Hazardous Mining Facility


0 + 1 + 0 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 5 = 16


So it turns out that the malus for depletion is indeed applied at the planet level, but it isn't explicitly called out on the tooltip.  You have to do the math for 16 * 0.5 (0.5 = 50% depletion malus) = 8 industry per population instead of the expected 16.


Observe that even though there is a single craver population on the planet, there is no tooltip callout for craver depletion -- this makes sense since the planet is fully depleted.  Looking at the 34 industry from enslaved populations, there are four enslaved units -- 4 * 8 = 32.  Of the enslaved units, one of them is a pulsos which gives +1 industry.  So it turns out that the contributions from specific population units got rolled into this entry -- 32 + (1 * 2) = 34.


Pretty sure my math above is correct, but if I made a mistake, please post a response.


-HP

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 10, 2017, 4:14:30 AM

By the way, I double checked by swapping out the pulsos unit for a deuyivan (which has no industry bonus) on each planet.  The enslaved population tooltip on the partially depleted planet went up to 80 from 78.  The enslaved population tooltip on the depleted planet went down to 32 from 34.  So I suppose to answer the original poster's questions:


The craver 150% FIDS bonus is applied at the per *craver population unit only* level at the planet level only on undepleted planets.  This does include modifiers applied at the per population unit level -- it does not include percent modifiers applied at the system level.


The craver 50% depleted malus is applied at the per population unit level at the planet level only on fully depleted planets.  This does include modifiers applied at the per population unit level -- it does not include percent modifiers applied at the system level.  It also does not apply to the minor/major faction specific unit bonuses even though the slavery bonus does still apply (maybe this should be considered a bug?).


-HP

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 10, 2017, 6:45:49 AM

Now that I think about it some more, a pulsos has an inherent +1 industry regardless of what planet you place him/her on (barren, terran, lava, gas), therefore placing them on a depleted version of any planet shouldn't impact that +1 industry generation.  Slavery, on the other hand, should always double that +1 inherent industry to +2.  Makes sense.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 6:16:27 PM

Okay, now that I'm actually playing Vodyani, I see there is no starport >_<.  That being said, I was using a spreadsheet to track food consumption so that I could determine a safe surplus for building new units (and not having it immediately die off due to the increase in consumption).  I can say with certainty that the gargantuan penalty is *not cumulative*.  It is applied once at the sytem level.  I didn't take a screenshot, but reading off a column from my spreadsheet:


Population: 3

System Food Total: 17

Cathedral: 40

Planet: 93

Drone Networks: 10

Consumption: -46.5

Gargantuan: -71.5

Manpower Conversion: -7.2


Observe that the gargantuan penalty (-50% food production) is applied to total food production before manpower conversion and consumption -- 40 + 93 + 10 = 143; 143 * 0.5 = 71.5.  Also note that the manpower conversion is applied after the gargantuan penalty is applied -- 143 - 71.5 = 71.5; 71.5 * 0.1 = 7.15 which gets rounded to 7.2.


I also made an entry in my spreadsheet for a time when I noticed the system was unhappy.


Population: 3

System Food Total: 3

Cathedral: 40

Planet: 93

Drone Networks: 10

Consumption: -46.5

Gargantuan: -50.1

Unhappy: -42.9


At this time, I guess my empire manpower was at the cap so no manpower conversion was taking place.  Observe that the gargantuan penalty is applied after the 30% unhappiness penalty -- 40 + 93 + 10 = 143; 143 * 0.3 = 42.9; 143 - 42.9 = 100.1; 100.1 * 0.5 = 50.05 which gets rounded to 50.1.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 13, 2017, 8:44:12 AM

Hey - thanks a lot for doing the legwork on this - that's exactly what I was hoping someone would do.

I'm doing a ton of manual checking on a lot of these other "subtle bonuses", but these particular ones are on two races I'm not a big fan of playing*, and ... I'm willing to "do things the hard way" a lot of the time, but I really appreciate someone else shouldering some of the load when it gets into territory I don't find particularly fun.  I've done manual tests like this for a bunch of different laws and such, so I really appreciate you doing this.  I'm sure CyRob (whom I'm observing doing some similar cataloguing over in his big thread) has the same feeling anytime he realizes someone else has already researched something and he can just copy it into his compendium.

I'll happily get this on the wiki.   Again - thank you!




On a related note, I'm playing through a few of the race campaigns and trying to catalogue all the different mutually exclusive quest rewards you can get for taking different quest paths.  I don't have any questions right now, but I just thought I'd mention that if you're curious.


* (I'm not a big Vodyani/Cravers fan because  I love the bejesus out of minor pop bonuses (actually why I started contributing to the wiki), and afaict Vodyani completely eliminate the possibility of having minor pops.  The Cravers, well -- I don't like ruining planets, and I don't like playing the aggressor in 4x games.)

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7 years ago
Dec 13, 2017, 8:53:58 AM

NB:  I've documented the Vodyani  food mechanic.  Thanks again.

I'll get the craver stuff in the wiki tomorrow (it's late and I need to not rush it, so I don't screw it up).

One thing I'd need to start a new game to test, but wouldn't mind if you know the answer to offhand:  I know you cannot get the benefits of, or appear to 'have' planets which you don't have the colonization tech for, as Vodyani.  I know also that such planets "instantly" get utilized if you own a system with them and learn that tech, without you needing to spend industry to colonize that additional planet.   What I don't know is - are you even allowed to dock an Ark if the whole system is uninhabitable with your current tech?   I think the answer is "no", but could you corroborate that?

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 13, 2017, 11:49:51 AM

I'm in the middle of my first real Vodyani playthrough and I researched the planet unlocks before attempting to expand so I didn't run into this.  I suppose you can start a new Vodyani game, undock your starting ark, and go system hunting (I'm on my laptop right now, so I can't try this).


Unfortunately, I don't know much about the quest rewards.  Since I was doing each empire one by one, I only did one path through the faction quests for each empire.  How heavily do the faction quests branch?  Are there 2^n nodes in the quest string, or does it duplicate/reconverge in places?


Heh, when I did my Cravers playthrough, I aimed for an elimination victory, so I made all of my 'home' systems full slave systems by keeping one Craver on each planet and filling the rest with minor populations (had to use Saints & Sinners to make it stick).  I then shipped all of my Craver population units to enemy systems I conquered, installed a Craver hero with the accelerated depletion skill, and depleted those planets as fast as I could while churning out vanilla ships, then razed them so I wouldn't accidentally get a conquest or supremacy victory.  By having only one Craver on each of your home planets, they take over 100 turns to deplete and even when they fully deplete, since all of the minor populations get a 100% slavery bonus, the 50% depletion malus is completely offset.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 14, 2017, 4:42:31 AM

Well, I've just gotten the Craver pop mechanics documented.  That was ... complicated.  http://endless-space-2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Cravers


One thing I'm hoping to track down is whether "the number of depletion points" is fixed per planet, or if it varies by size.  Or even type (though I find that unlikely).

Also what the hell is the Virtual Dustalyzer?  You've actually got that in your production queue - I've had that drop multiple times in multiple playthroughs (I've discovered it on a curiosity), but it's never appeared in my construction queue or anything.  I wonder if it's appearing for you because you're playing as Cravers (since they have that unique turn-a-pop-into-mountain-dew™ construction queue option)?


It's supposed to give something like 500 dust, at the cost of destroying a pop unit?  I think? 


hp2 wrote:


Unfortunately, I don't know much about the quest rewards.  Since I was doing each empire one by one, I only did one path through the faction quests for each empire.  How heavily do the faction quests branch?  Are there 2^n nodes in the quest string, or does it duplicate/reconverge in places?

They branch pretty heavily;  I think there's a little "reconvergence" - for example, when you're playing riftborn, you can choose to kill or recruit Anax-Jink, and there's a brief bonus-quest-thread if you keep it alive, but regardless of your decision the main storyline reconvenes afterwards.


However, most "big decision" quest threads are permanent and include completely unique bonuses.  For example, as the riftborn, you have several quest threads - one ends up giving you +3 influence on every riftborn population;  one ends up giving you +4 dust on every riftborn;  another ends up giving you +4 industry on every riftborn.   A fourth one gives you an empire-wide +3 strategics on every deposit.   Each of these has other bonuses on the quest thread leading into it - the one with the influence bonus also has a -50% pop construction cost on riftborn earlier in its thread;  the one with the +4 dust has a "-25% pop construction cost and +25% industry->manpower conversion bonus, and", and then the two with +4 industry/riftborn-pop and +3 strategics both come from the "+50% industry->manpower conversion bonus" plot thread.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 14, 2017, 10:46:09 AM

I'm 95% certain that max depletion points are determined by planet size.  I've terraformed planets all the way from toxic to forest as a craver and the depletion current/max remain unchanged each step of the way.


The virtual dustylizer was actually fixed in a recent patch.  It was bugged before and even though you find it on a curiosity, it wouldn't show up in any queues.  It's pretty handy especially for non-craver empires.  The two 'simplest' ways to control system population is to use the starport to send population units to a designated overflow system and watch all the civilian ships pile up in orbit.  The other way is to use chain gang, but chain gang is disabled if your empire is at the manpower cap, so this can be frustrating when you're trying to keep headroom on your systems for growing minor populations.  The virtual dustylizer is identical to chain gang except that it gives dust instead of manpower and I think it only gets disabled when the system population is at one.


Oh my, I didn't realize the main faction quests branched that much with so many interesting rewards.  I've been playing with low resource abundance in my games lately and I don't recall coming across that strategic bonus in my Riftborn playthrough.  Now I kinda wish I kept track of all the quest decisions I made in all my playthroughs.  I'll have to give the wiki a read to see what I missed ^_^.


-HP

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7 years ago
Dec 15, 2017, 1:43:53 AM

Yeah, so far I've only got the Riftborn Quest rewards up.   Most likely the next ones will be some mix of Sophons/UE/Unfallen.

I think due to the nature of it they'll probably go up piecemeal.

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7 years ago
Dec 16, 2017, 7:56:03 AM

UE and Sophon Quest rewards are up.

UE industrialist path is a little fuzzy (sadly my playthrough for that was one straight shot marathon, apparently without ever saving, so all of the stuff recorded is basically from memory).  I'll probably do another playthrough at some point - I stumbled across a rumor on the net that "Traitor's Reach" isn't just a free system, but has some "unique building" on it, so I'll want to investigate that.  I suspect it also does the "Radiance"/"Heartfire" thing where rather than using an existing nearby system, it creates an entirely new system, from scratch, that was not previously on the starmap.


Sophons should be comprehensive.

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7 years ago
Dec 17, 2017, 7:02:59 AM

Gathering some data for "one craver on a planet" depletion stats:
Speed:  Fast


Huge: 100 turns
Large: 90 turns

Medium: 75 turns

Small: 60 turns

Tiny: 50 turns

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Feb 19, 2018, 4:43:17 AM

I've fully documented the Lumeris and Vaulter ships, now:
http://endless-space-2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lumeris

http://endless-space-2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Vaulters



@ RE Traitor's Reach - it's not a unique building system.   It does do the Heartfire/Radiance thing where it creates a new system "ex nihilo"

Updated 7 years ago.
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