Also keepnin mind that vines do not have to be grown node to node. Each system you posses puts out an aura that is hard to see. You can vine up any system within that aura regardless of connectivity with star lanes. 

I cant recall exactly what shows it but i believe if you actively select a vine ship it will show an vine aura around systems you are able to grab. 

This means if there is a crap system connected to your homeworld...and a better system connected to that but also in close proximity...you can leapfrog the bad one and go straight to the better one as your first vine target. You dont have to waste 20 turns vining an inferior system to then be able to grab the one you really want. 

SB, a very good ES2 player and youtuber did a lengthy Unfallen game recently and his channel might be a good source for learning them better. 

It feels like the Unfallen are drastically weaker than the other civilizations. Everytime I try to play as them in Singleplayer the AI have already colonized a second system before I can even create my first vine (normal difficulty), and my closest start system is almost always one without planets! Meaning it takes me 40 turns to colonize my first planet in another star system (assuming I even find one with colonizable planets). The fact that they have to expand so linearly and it taking so many turns to create vines is such a huge weakness. Then my growth will always get stunted by pirates or another civ making it impossible for me to expand without war, but I'll be so weak I can't fight other civs. I don't want to lower the difficulty or play without pirates, but that seems to be the only way to make these guys viable. What am I doing wrong? Is there a way to speed up vine creation like you can for outposts? Because 20 turns is, frankly, ridiculous.

Hello. The trees are strong protection is the same? Accordingly, it is necessary to play for them from protection and put pressure on the technology of colonization, so that at the average speed one third of the galaxy could be populated, if not more. And yes, the trees are very strong, if you know how to play for them. Sorry in advance for bad English.

In games as/against unfallen usually one of the following happens:
They are left alone to outgrow everyone cause of food. And expansion rate which although seems slower, is actually faster since the very start of the game - remember 10 turns for a colony is better than 15 turns over an outpost, 0 food loss etc..
They are in your face so they can expand even faster through invasion.

koxsos wrote:

In games as/against unfallen usually one of the following happens:
They are left alone to outgrow everyone cause of food. And expansion rate which although seems slower, is actually faster since the very start of the game - remember 10 turns for a colony is better than 15 turns over an outpost, 0 food loss etc..
They are in your face so they can expand even faster through invasion.

Unfortunatly the video in your link was recordered before nerf that increased base vine speed from 10 to 20 turn. Playing on Endless difficulty i can win with Unfallen without problems, but compared to other races it's much harder becouse honestly current iteration of Unfallen is really weak. The only thing that carry Unfallen is Pacifist law increasing FIDS, but the same thing carry Lumeris 50% harder without any early game problems. 

The only other race that's similar in early game weakenss to Unfallen is Vodyani, but they become powerhouse mid to endgame, whille Unfallen have mediocre late game compared to any other civ. Of course you can cheat AI without problems with simple 20 vine ship fleet converting system / turn through peacefull conversion, or insane warfare mobility with vines or huge production through food to industry conversion, but by turn you get to see Unfallen power, you could be miles ahead with any other race. 

So the long story short, Unfallen is the weakest race atm. Their early game colonization got nerfed twofold without any compensation and lategame isn't something to write about. If i were to play competitive game with ppls, Unfallen would be the last race to consider for game since all their streght comes from exploiting AI's and their weaknesses are super easy to exploit. 

Crizis wrote:

koxsos wrote:

In games as/against unfallen usually one of the following happens:
They are left alone to outgrow everyone cause of food. And expansion rate which although seems slower, is actually faster since the very start of the game - remember 10 turns for a colony is better than 15 turns over an outpost, 0 food loss etc..
They are in your face so they can expand even faster through invasion.

Unfortunatly the video in your link was recordered before nerf that increased base vine speed from 10 to 20 turn. Playing on Endless difficulty i can win with Unfallen without problems, but compared to other races it's much harder becouse honestly current iteration of Unfallen is really weak. The only thing that carry Unfallen is Pacifist law increasing FIDS, but the same thing carry Lumeris 50% harder without any early game problems. 

Recorded a week ago, (and the last patch I know of is from 29.3. - SHAME!) the speed is fast, that's why it only takes 10 turns. Allow me to rephrase the statement for normal speed, where food is even more relevant - 20 turns is better than 30 and the lack of food drain is even stronger buff then.

You are forgetting about the affinity tech providing 15% to science and dust per friendly faction which is free to maintain once unlocked in comparison with the law. And provides unrivaled endgame eco/science victory potential (I mean if you have 3 allies you have +45% science which is close to what sophons get + 45% dust)
You are also omitting, that the above bonus + the per ally bonus makes unfallen the strongest faction for combat provided you have the allies to stack them with. Otherwise don't pick unfallen.
Republic law bonus point is a weak point considering you have the highest influence output since the start of the game, approval bonus per ally, and can thus change government quite easily to whatever suits your needs, while you will probably stay democracy to maintain approval on the highly populated systems with your unrivaled food production.

The only other race that's similar in early game weakenss to Unfallen is Vodyani, but they become powerhouse mid to endgame, whille Unfallen have mediocre late game compared to any other civ. Of course you can cheat AI without problems with simple 20 vine ship fleet converting system / turn through peacefull conversion, or insane warfare mobility with vines or huge production through food to industry conversion, but by turn you get to see Unfallen power, you could be miles ahead with any other race. 

Again, strongest endgame powerhouse in the game provided you have allies. If you don't, don't pick unfallen. And even then, if you are defending, you are in a highly advantageous position. Trait combat bonuses are not limited to endgame, at 2 allies you can win most "even" fights without any further investment. If you couple it with laws later on, sky's the limit.

So the long story short, Unfallen is the weakest race atm. Their early game colonization got nerfed twofold without any compensation and lategame isn't something to write about. If i were to play competitive game with ppls, Unfallen would be the last race to consider for game since all their streght comes from exploiting AI's and their weaknesses are super easy to exploit. 

Unfallen maintain a steady position as a GG pick once you have at least one person to be at peace with and it's expansion speed grows exponentially if invested into.
They are adept at everything thanks to high population count, the limiting factor being planet slots and bonuses. They are a hassle to invade with high default manpower production and guardians.
They are of course subject to rng such as pirates spawning on your first intended expansion location. Bad home system, lack of luxuries/strategics in starting constellation and in spite of ridiculous influence production usually fail to contest minor factions if other players are involved due to the vine system.

Patch which drastically increased their ability to entwine systems even further ahead and did not lock them to that first special node right next to home as their beginning made them highly viable under most circumstances.

koxsos wrote: many things

1. Understandable, i never play on fast so thought it was before patch.

2. +% dust production is irrelevant, since some factions can earn more through selling resources (horatio and lumeris both have insane luxury production), use more eifficient buyout system (united empire), and dust isn't really efficient resource. +% research is sure nice, but it's tier 4 tech and for example riftborn in the same tier get +25% science singularities (for a 75% total empire wide bonus that don't depent on anything). 

Sophons comparison isn't fair, since their 50% bonus lasts wholle game and they get extra 50% for military techs, so they'll be miles ahead by the time this tech just becomes aviable to Unfallen.

3. About switching to republic you're right, and imo 15% FIDSI instead of 10% per ally  and 10% instead of 5% per peace treaty can make a huge difference, provided you've enough of friends.

4. Even if we forget that strong early game transits to strong endgame, Unfallen are nowhere close to endgame economic monsters that Horatio and Vodyani are. Both races without relying on allies can easilly create 10K+ industry output systems, Horatio have insane luxury output guarantying them all systems at level 4 before anyone else exept Lumeris, while Vodyani endgame produces Arc every 2 turns that on it's own can be kited with 9 slots of flat 50 industry and 15% industry modules  for a total of 450 industry and 135% industry per arc (such an arc can get full system online with all improvements in a few turns). 

Riftborns aren't too much behind - great early industry, great strategic resource generation, great hero leveling and then easy access to self sufficient 75% science boost, meanwhille they also have the strongest colony grab potential and great population growth through breeding minors and constructing population at the same time, also it's relatively easy to keep both industrial and pacifists bonuses for them providing +8 flat production / pop and still keeping similar FIDSI bonuses to Unfallen. 

Lumeris also aren't too much behind - great early game, easiest minors assimilation, pacifist population granting almost the same bonuses as Unfallen and insane luxury generation.  

United Empire with proper play is one of the most efficient colony rush race (quest and industrial law adds ~50% food for outpost), and with proper influence generation they're most efficient buyout endgame race. 

Hell even cravers can be very strong in endgame, provided they have enough happiness to have majority of population being slaves (easy example is going religious path that provides slightly weaker early game and warfare, but being far superior in managing infinite expansion and an amount of slaves). 100% FIDS bonus even on depleted planets transition to 100% output whille being 200% during depletion phase.

The factions above have (in my opinion) similar or stronger economic endgame compared to Unfallen, given all get similar amount of colonies. Problem is, that all above factions grab more space then Unfallen. As example, in my previous run playing Horatio (not the most efficient landgrab race) by turn 48 (standart speed) i've colonised 7 systems and had 1 outpost in progress. Problem is that all outpost food based races can colonize exponentionally - for example first colony support first colonizaion, then 2 colonies support two outposts then ou leave 2 colonies for growth and still can have 2 outposts in makingm or if you expect no preassure then 1+1 - 2+2 - 4+4 etc. 

So realisticly, most races can grab more systems, before being forced to conflict over them. In my opinion, a huge help to Unfallen expansion would be alowing conversion of minors in systems, adjustent to Unfallen with automatic entwining, since nothing is worse then your nearby minor faction getting assimilated through quest whille you've to go through wholle process of connecting it to your empire and ironicly in such circumstances you now have another fleet to deal with if new minor facton owner decide to attack you...

5. Combat wise Unfallen aren't top dogs either - for example cravers have larger fleets and stacking +1% bonus for each depleted planet, so by turn 100 you can be very well facing fleets with +70% damage bonus not counting cravers very strong heroes. Another example is Vodyani, whose heroes are downright insane admirals and their production and expansion capabilities by endgame are very hard to match. 

Our expirience may be very different, if you're mostly playing MP and me playing SP. But imo any mode is enough to be able to gouge factions raw power but at least AI's are predictable and exploitable to get the most of Unfallen. Meanwhille i can't even fathom playing Unfallen with competent UE or Riftborn colony rushing neighbours, or craver that can easilly shutdown any expansion from Unfallen becouse 1) much stronger early game production 2) faster early game expansion 3) no need to invest into very expensive vine ships 4) ability to snipe vineships becouse if they're guarded in fleet then cravers have more combat ship per fleet (not to mention extra 2cp bonus) and if they're not - they're easy target for snipe. 

Also it's not even hard to conquer Unfallen systems, provided you're able to win early game warfare - just block expansion and bring support ships with siege modules. 

As an example during craver playthroughs Unfallen AI's even with all Endless difficulty bonuses are easiest race to shutdown. They simply can't expand when being preassure.

In my opinion Unfallen are strong only if they aren't disturbed during terrible early game and have allies, meanwhille most races (exept Vodyani past arcs nerf) have better early game, compared to Unfallen and still comparable or better endgame. Last but not least, Unfallen are the easiest race to disturb, even Vodyani aren't so vurnerable during early game due to their great heroes and ability to put production towards warfare still retaining ability to expand through exploitation of arc essence production modules. 

So my point is that nerfing Unfallen entwining x 2 without any compensation was too severe nerf and considering you've to entwine even minor civs before assimilating that's simply too much.  

Also i find it rediculous, how Unfallen were the most defensive race and at the same time had best mobility through vines speed boost, and then Amplitude introduced Vaulters who have waaay better mobility, colonization without outposts at much faster speed and much better early game in general. Talk about being fair =) Well at least Vaulters are really behind in raw economic output compared to unfallen.

In my experience, "don't pick them if X" is not a sign of good balance.  There are a lot of situations in this game where some races are completely hosed; telling players not to pick a race when it's not advantageous doesn't help anyone play it better.  If the race is so overpowered in the right situation, yet so hosed outside of it, I see a problem.  If a faction has to have allies to stand on its own, it's not a well designed faction.  I find this tragic because it leads to the possibility of factions getting completely ignored because of the prevalent metagame and public opinion.  I'd hate to see all the work that went into designing an entire faction go to waste because they require certain game parameters to be viable.

Best?  Worst?  Irrelevant.  Non-viable outside certain pregame conditions?  Not okay.

Especially for a genre where the average session take hours upon hours to complete...

I would like to discuss the unfallen expansion curve a bit and specifically ask Koxsos about it, i play with endless ai and hard pirates.

What usually happens is i spend first turn to explore with scout/hero, then move vinesheep to a good location (rather than risk go blindly because i can end up spending 6 turns running into uncoloniable systems) and begin vine process. Meanwhile i build drone network, research xeno fuel plant and depending on if i had colonizable/early researchable planets that can contain guardians, i probe them and will snipe a colonization between the drone and the fuel factory.

NOW after all thee are done we are at about turn 15. I proceed to build my second vine ship

And here is the danger part. If the pirate visit my vineship location, my scout+hero are not enough to win. So to be safe i changed my plan to build a thorn chassis and then a vinestip.

All that means your first constructed vineship comes out at turn 25 or so. So now your next colony will be at 35 - 32 at the earliest.

As a sophon i easily have 2 colonies an 2 outposts by now, maybe 3 colonies at that.

Yes i know that as a sophon i have like 3 pops at homeworld, while as an unfallen i have like 7. BUT the basic colony output is just better. the total income and production capacity is just burned because suddenly vineship cost 900 (!) industry, AND requires flottila protection.

BTW now i need 4 thorns with the hyperium armaments to protect them because pirates use fleets with 300/400 power/def more often than not.

i just dont see the curve. i play them because really like them but i dont feel like i am strong at all.

Just some questions here: Why certain players build vine ships before the xeno fuel plant is complete? i thought it would be a great idea to utilize xeno fuel plant first before creating vineships, as it may increase industry. 

Also, is there any benefit in making a peace treaty whit unfallen in multiplayer, or even an alliance? Since we know unfallen get buffs for both, I wonder what are the reasons players might have to give unfallen such buffs. 

And i was wondering if these reasons are something to consider when making diplomacy whit unfallen...

It is true that guardians yield bonus influence to other factions even during cold wars, or it is neutral?

Perhaps this linked discussion is useful: Unfallen vine/guardian mechanics?

Thanks for the links and especilly for taking 2 hours of your time for that playthrough. I was very surprised both by that unlucky long starlane but also at how the Vodyani wrecked the first pirate spawn. After making a lot of 30 turn playthroughs and reading on tactics, i am much more sucessfull (although i can still lose my first entwining if i get multiple pirate bases or some strange uncommon spawns at turn 11 that are white but aggressive pirates and rush my vineship). What is more annoying now is how the endless AI rushes colonizing near my homesystem, sometimes even adjacent to it and i can easily find myself resource starved (they are aware of where each strategic is and they rush them).

Minor factions are really helpfull because of the dust/tech snowball effect and you can secure them if you manage a detail in the praise mechanic: you can go above 100 but cannot praise once you reach 100. So you want to spend a lot of influence at 90 or so, to reach 180 total and the like, and prevent the AI from stealing them.

Sometimes however my praise effect ends a few turns early and that sucks. No idea why, they arent changing sovereignity.

Overall i really  feel they are very sensitive and lag behind the others in terms of  occupying rih systems on normal speed, but at least ai is manageable.