Heya everyone, I played a lot of ES and Endless Legend, and now finally I got my hands & time with ES2.

However, playing with various races (mainly sophons, vodyani and lumeris) I am finding it difficult to expand. Please note I generally like to play slow games (endless - 600 turns).

Sophons: their food production blows. I can't colonize before I do some food upgrades in starting system or I will loose population or not grow at all in home system.

Vodyani: same food problems, even if I can up the population with 500 essence they just start to die next turn due to food shortage, if I try go to straight for 2nd ark, and put more value on researching various planet colonizations to get more 1 pops to increase FIDSI, I don't have the science for it and I would be really lucky to get 2 colonization techs before my 2nd ark is ready to launch (and due to RNG of systems you can't really know what you need for 5 planet systems). Plus the pirate quest on turn 10 it's a bit too much (maybe bad luck but whenever I found a minor faction in a nearby system and started to drain them of essence or just boost them with influence for their FIDSI bonuses, always one quest pirate would spawn there).

Lumeris: they have it easier because you can snatch whatever system you want with dust, despite suffering from industry / science low outputs at start. Still, colonizing more than 1 system is a death sentence on your home system (not always lucky to find / scout isolated systems).

So here are some questions that could apply to all 3 races I mentioned:

1) if your starting system has a 2nd (or more) colonizable planet do you get it from turn 1? or build the basic food / production / dust / science buildings then go for it? If you do go for it, will you still colonize a 2nd system if you find a nice one before you finish colonization on your home system?

2) Tech wise do you grab the basics from each tree or focus more on a single tree to advance to next stage? (guess mainly economics for unlocking T2 system upgrades)

3) Is it worth it to assimilate minor factions early game (especially with Lumeris) or better keep them at high opinion to get the bonuses?

4) When do you start moving towards warship hulls & weapon / CP upgrades in early game? Is there a milestone (like I need to get this tech first to unlock X before I consider doing more ships, or I need to reach Y production output before doing more military etc).

Much appreciated, any tips most welcome.

PS: there is a severe lack of vids on youtube that are up to date and not 1 year or more old and many mechanics / numbers have been changed since then so while they gave me a general ideea of what to do, I can't reproduce them with success in actual game.

Much appreciated!

The difference with my game speed is that you get faction quest on turn 10, academy on 15, pirates pop on 20, first election turn 40. Usually T1 research is ~15 turns (except for sophons on a tech with 50% bonus from T1 ofc), building an explorer ship is~7-10 turns depending on your start (how much industry you have, what laws you use etc).

I always start with the basic ind / food and science / dust, it's too good to pass on yep! I can't colonize more than 1 outpost at a time at start (and for quite a while before I develop some food infrastructure - especially with Vodyani) because it will go really bad into negative values (since your home planet attempts to supply for 2 outposts), I tried and it didn't go well pretty much.

Is there any way btw to stop an outpost from developing into a colony? Especially when playing as Vodyani (this is so infuriating since you rely solely on your Arcs to grab a new - and hopefully better - system, and you can't force your essence production especially early on). I can't seem to be able to siege it or invade it, just slow it down (considerably) but that's not good enough if I can't get an Arc there in time.

And lastly, it seems that various modules /weapons you discover by investigating anomalies are not obtainable from research tree - like Maggie laser or did I just not see it in the research tree?

mamarider wrote:

Touko nice points, but are those tips even viable for his game speed? I wanted to give some advice as well but then realised I never played a game on endless speed..

 You make a great point, I didn't even consider the game speed. I play at normal speed.

Anelyn wrote:

Is there any way btw to stop an outpost from developing into a colony? Especially when playing as Vodyani (this is so infuriating since you rely solely on your Arcs to grab a new - and hopefully better - system, and you can't force your essence production especially early on). I can't seem to be able to siege it or invade it, just slow it down (considerably) but that's not good enough if I can't get an Arc there in time.

 Sieging an outpost is somewhat confusing. You've already figured out how to slow it down, now do the same thing with a bigger fleet. When you slow it down even more, the food production of the outpost turns negative. The outpost disappears when it's out of food. 

Anelyn wrote:

And lastly, it seems that various modules /weapons you discover by investigating anomalies are not obtainable from research tree - like Maggie laser or did I just not see it in the research tree?

 Correct. The modules you find in curios are unobtainable through other means.

Cheers!

Well umph, that early in the game is not realistic to bring a bigger fleet because of reasons haha :) I was hoping you could do something other than sieging it, because as Vodyani you pretty much are screwed if someone else puts an outpost in a system you wanted since your Ark can't "make an outpost" like all other factions can, then siege to slow down his outpost and speed up yours, the Ark just... sits there unnable to anchor :)

Now I get it why peeps say that Vodyani with a good start are amazing, I made it into mid game (aprox turn 150 on my game speed out of 600) and I have 2x5 planet systems at lvl 2 with 5 pop each, exalted, producing ~1k industry, ~800ish science, ~700ish dust / turn in each system (home system being 4xplanets but with some nice bonuses). Tho their problem is that you really can't leave a 5 planet system to grab a 2 or 3 planet system because of a resource, and the market isn't really that great for buying high amounts of rare thingies to build ships / modules / wonders etc. 

The AI are very sneaky and cheating in trading with you as well (to be expected I guess), but I managed to intimidate(?) United Empires so every couple turns I get to make a free demand on them (and they are quite big, like 12+ systems compared to my total of 4). Vaulters made peace and want to trade science with me, Lumeris made peace and trading treaty and then they backstabbed me by stealing all the free systems around my systems oh well :)

 Yup, sounds like Vodyani. A great start makes them incredibly powerful. "Normal" empires gain usually very little from warfare (besides territory), but the Vodyani can turn military superiority into large amounts of essense. 

Anelyn wrote:

I was hoping you could do something other than sieging it, because as Vodyani you pretty much are screwed if someone else puts an outpost in a system you wanted since your Ark can't "make an outpost" like all other factions can, then siege to slow down his outpost and speed up yours, the Ark just... sits there unnable to anchor :)

 It's rather annoying when that happens. There is a sneaky thing you can do to benefit though: if you siege the outpost and it gets completed under siege, it wont be filled with manpower. With the help of the religious forced law, you can easily invade the unprotected colony.

Anelyn wrote:

The AI are very sneaky and cheating in trading with you as well (to be expected I guess), but I managed to intimidate(?) United Empires so every couple turns I get to make a free demand on them (and they are quite big, like 12+ systems compared to my total of 4). Vaulters made peace and want to trade science with me, Lumeris made peace and trading treaty and then they backstabbed me by stealing all the free systems around my systems oh well :)

 Good observations about AI behaviour: they can be renegade at times. They expand aggressively, and when they feel like they have the stronger military they will start looking for opportunities to wage war. Sometimes when an AI turns aggressive, you can see "we are stronger than you" listed as one of their reasons. Having a strong fleet guarding a system adjacent to theirs is sometimes a good enough display of military might to make the AI change their plans. 

 I'm not suprised to see that it's the Lumeris doing the backstabbing. They always act, how should I put it, quite fishy. (a terrible joke and I'm not sorry I made it :D)

But if you blockade the outpost it will never reach colony level. You could park a ship outside there and have kill any civilian ships. Works for me.

Yeah, but it was really weird. The UE was way bigger both score and systems than I was (I had 2 systems) and I made peace with them, all was cool, best buddies, Emperor was asking me to come by his palace for a drink etc, then couple turns later, bam they plant an outpost in between my 2 colonized systems on a system with only 1 planet and no resources!

I asked him to remove it and he sent me packing becoming aggressive, so I went back to cold war and closed borders and thought about preparing for war, but no, my influence pushed against him, and in next 20 turns or so I could start demanding free stuff from them with no repercussion.

Then Riftborn - so annoyingly sneaky - they come in peace on a mission of survival but hey let's not be friends, but be rude instead. So I declared war and took their capital in 2 turns (I had my hero at level 9 or so, with couple protectors & attackers) then hunting grounds, and he still didn't wanted to truce for several turns despite he had no fleets whatsoever.

So their attitude doesn't really reflect their intentions, unlike in Endless Legend where except specific factions who you knew were backstabbers, you can't really tell if they like you or your power level :D

Slashman wrote:

But if you blockade the outpost it will never reach colony level. You could park a ship outside there and have kill any civilian ships. Works for me.

Oh yes it can reach colony level. You have to use a small amount of ships so that the outpost doesn't starve, but is slowed down instead. 

Truth be told, I am playing with Supremacy and the dev-made G2G Balance mod, but I am almost certain this works even without the DLC/G2G mod.

Anelyn wrote:

Yeah, but it was really weird. The UE was way bigger both score and systems than I was (I had 2 systems) and I made peace with them, all was cool, best buddies, Emperor was asking me to come by his palace for a drink etc, then couple turns later, bam they plant an outpost in between my 2 colonized systems on a system with only 1 planet and no resources!

I asked him to remove it and he sent me packing becoming aggressive, so I went back to cold war and closed borders and thought about preparing for war, but no, my influence pushed against him, and in next 20 turns or so I could start demanding free stuff from them with no repercussion.

Yup, typical UE AI behaviour. If they have nothing to gain from keeping a smaller empire around, they will become aggressive. If you want to be friends with an AI, you have to make sure they have a reason to be your friend. 

Mutual benefit through trade, science and vision agreements can prove useful for establishing a lasting peace. Having a common enemy is also a great incentive for forging a friendship, so attacking an empire helps you gain the favour of their enemies.

And this is what puzzles me. I am first in gallaxy as far as dust / science / industry production / luxuries goes. I made an alliance with UE, riftborn, sophons yet none of them wants to do trade routes / scientific / whatever treaties despite I am bumping them with k's of dust or hundreds of luxuries (not that I need the treaties, am doing on turn 160 endless speed ~50k science a turn on my own) yet they refuse.

I mean.... wtf? Dude we are in an alliance, I am the strongest (from all points of view) faction, you are in an alliance with me, yet you refuse economical or science treaties? You are not interested in tier 4 or 5 tech for a merely 50 tier 2 or 3 resource?

I can literally make a new Ark every next 5 turns (the cost being somewhere around 12k essence, but my arks pump out a ton of essence, not minding other bonuses / laws etc).

It's just weird that they are not acting towards their own gains when inside an alliance and offered amazing deals. Infuriating when I declare war on Vautlers & Horatio Federation and couple turns later just as my fleets reach their key systems, someone in alliance (I AM LOOKING AT YOU SOPHONS!) makes a peace treaty... like... dude seriously? At least Riftborns are great allies, they did sign all the pacts, they did send fleets whenever I entered conflict, they are making moves on map that make sense, but Sophons and UE?

Anelyn wrote:

And this is what puzzles me. I am first in gallaxy as far as dust / science / industry production / luxuries goes. I made an alliance with UE, riftborn, sophons yet none of them wants to do trade routes / scientific / whatever treaties despite I am bumping them with k's of dust or hundreds of luxuries (not that I need the treaties, am doing on turn 160 endless speed ~50k science a turn on my own) yet they refuse.

I think they refuse because they see you control the most powerful empire. Making deals with you will only make you stronger, and therefore more dangerous to their empire. I am unsure of if this is how the AI thinks, but it explains a lot of AI behaviour I've seen.

Anelyn wrote:

It's just weird that they are not acting towards their own gains when inside an alliance and offered amazing deals. Infuriating when I declare war on Vautlers & Horatio Federation and couple turns later just as my fleets reach their key systems, someone in alliance (I AM LOOKING AT YOU SOPHONS!) makes a peace treaty... like... dude seriously? At least Riftborns are great allies, they did sign all the pacts, they did send fleets whenever I entered conflict, they are making moves on map that make sense, but Sophons and UE?

Haha the classic "my ally is about to win the war, let me offer the enemy a truce" :D

This is something you see from time to time when your alliance has an AI member with the personality trait "pacifist". It's indeed rather annoying when it happens.