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Flak vs Missles

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6 years ago
Nov 5, 2018, 6:32:13 PM

So I'm fairly new to the game and from what I've read generally flak should counter missles effectively. So I built pretty much a flak only fleet as the immedidate enemies appeared to have missle weapons. Here is a save where my fleet is attacked by the Sophons where I figured I comfortably win but ends up usually being about a draw: Flak vs Missles.sav


It seems a lot of missles get through the significant flak defenses that I have. Guess I'm finding it hard to understand what's happening by just watching the battle or reviewing the end of battle report. Any input is appreciated.

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6 years ago
Nov 6, 2018, 1:10:01 PM

Flak has a limitation on how many missiles it can counter and doesn't protect from critical hits. An alpha strike of missiles will always win against flak defenses unless the flak cannons are overpowered to kill the enemies before the ships are destroyed. Because of how strong the flak cannons are made to be when critical hitting and the luck of getting them is the reason why flak is used as the ultimate weapon even if your success is all about your flak cannons destroyed the ships. Most of the time you don't win with flak because them countered the missiles and only because the flak cannons shredded the ships before them had a chance to win. Game is set to alpha strike and will target the largest ship in a pyramid where the largest ship tanks the smaller.  Once your largest ship is destroyed your smaller have shorter amount of weaponmodules to tank the alpha strike of missile spam. Even if you seemed to be winning the loss of a flagship against missiles can turn the tide. Flak cannons are like all other weapons and have blank spots, you need to have top or large weapons and rear weapons for every top or large and rear missilemodule on your enemy ships.

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6 years ago
Nov 6, 2018, 4:15:19 PM

Thanks for the response but not really following what you are trying to convey. Not really sure what you mean by 'alpha strike' or top/large/rear weapons?


I read through various posts including this guide: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forums/68-game-help/threads/29219-space-battle-guide-explanation-of-game-mechanics. They seem to indicate that each flak gun fires twice at incoming missiles with each shot having an 80% hit chance (so will usually shoot down 1-2 missles each). That would somewhat extend to mean that each flak gun should counter about 1.5 enemy missle modules.


Given the battle in my save game, it would appear we have pretty equal fleets in size and number of weapons so I would think that flak should handily beat missles and take very little damage but that doesn't appear to be the case. It seems lots of missles get past the flak guns but its not clear why.

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6 years ago
Nov 8, 2018, 5:05:53 PM

The amount of countered missiles is based on the time it takes for the flak cannon to fire and not a static number on how many missiles it will always destroy, each missile has its own healthpoint which must be eliminated as well. The top weapons are easily noticed as them are the weapons who only fires a single missile animiation while the rears of the ship weapons fire two missile animations, however the actual amount of missiles fired is only one. Each of the these two different slots have its own settings and a top missile will have 2x as much health on a medium or larger ship and fires the missile in a wider area than the rear weapons, in which case the rear flak cannon's allowed response zone can be out of reach for the missile's striking angle.  Each side can only reach 180° while the top can reach 270° and has to take into account the time and distance to the target. If a weapon who can only fire at the sides shifts sideweapon it need to restart the firing sequence. If a fleet is flanked by many fleets , each fleet is having a different distance and time of arrival for their own missiles.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Nov 20, 2018, 7:21:53 AM

I actually had a different situation. My missles never hit a target. They just circle around and never hit. Not sure if it is a bug or not. That is why i started to search the formus :P

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6 years ago
Nov 21, 2018, 4:06:03 AM

Yeah, I honestly really struggle to find good information and understand how combat works in this game. Feel like we get a pretty screen but really hard to tell what's actually going on and how various weapon types work. Only thing that seems to work is just have much better quality ships and more of them. If fleets are around equal seem like a complete toss up on who wins...

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6 years ago
Nov 21, 2018, 6:45:37 PM

I would nerd out so hard if more information was given/availble during battles. Would love for it to feel more "turn-by-turn" once you hit the "fight" button

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6 years ago
Nov 22, 2018, 9:22:02 PM

i like to make my toughest / biggest protector ship my flak ship. it will be the prefered target.   i load that puppy with all flak and use it to shoot down the in coming.  works like a charm.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Nov 25, 2018, 1:20:37 PM
Smitty2k1 wrote:

I would nerd out so hard if more information was given/availble during battles. Would love for it to feel more "turn-by-turn" once you hit the "fight" button

Not much nerding, I mean given all the information all you have to do is put it down in solver and come out with an optimized setup and then get rick'n'rng rolled.

Updated 6 years ago.
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6 years ago
Nov 26, 2018, 11:54:08 PM

Yeah, using a protector ship decked out with flak and defense modules seems to work well.


Well if we actually had any information on how combat works then we could actually make strategies on ships/weapons. Right now its like a shot in the dark and try to get a feel after playing long enough.


Combat is the one thing in this game that just seems terrible and even ES1 seemed to do it better. I'd much rather have a combat system similar endless legend so I can at least do something besides watch things shoot at each other and have no idea whats going on.

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6 years ago
Feb 8, 2019, 1:36:00 AM

I will do my best to answer this question as it seems the verdict was never clearly established as to why the OPs flak defenses seemed to fail. There are several factors to consider when facing an enemy armed exclusively with missiles that will determine your success. 


  • #1 What tier is his weaponry?
  • #2 how many weapon moduals does he have (make sure you appropriately account for med and carrier class ships mods counting as x2 and x4 per slot respectively)
  • #3 how does his flotilla composition and frequent/recently used tactics stack up to your own?


If you have a good understanding of these three things you can very accurately predict the outcome of most engagements.


First lest look at slug modules and how they function in the game. Each slug module you equip will provide your fleet with two things. First an offensive, high rate of fire, projectile weapon with terrible accuracy/damage at long range; but devestating close range accuracy/damage. To maximize your ships success with these modules you absolutely must run the ships using them with a battle tactic that sends them into close range. Due to the high rate of fire, and moderate damage per hit relative to missiles, these guns will whittle away enemy health at a predicatble rate which increases as you close distance to your target. This is in contrast to missiles, which have a very slow rate of fire but absolutely devestating damage upon a single hit. 

This burst damage effect is likely why you feel you are winning as the battle begins, but dont do as well as you feel you should.  As your rapid fire slugs begin to whittle the enemy health away steadily you take the lead, but then boom...a missile bypasses your defenses and you are down an entire ship just like that.  Choosing anything but a short range battle tactic will only exacerbate this problem as you never reach peak damage output, and missiles are more effective at both long and med range baring flak defense.  


So lets now talk about how those flak defenses work. Each slug module also adds a flak defense cannon. These cannons have a very short range that form a defensive bubble around the ship. The offensive capabiliteis of these mods clearly require a line of site, so direction engagement matters to some degree. It is not clear to me if flak are the same in this regaurd. What is clear is that it is often the case that flak defenses from other ships will rarely overlpa with others in such a way that for most cases, only the ships own flak defenses will be used against missile attacks against it. 


Speaking of missiles, whenever an enemy projectile like a missile, or boarding pod, enters the defensive bubble the flak guns create around a ship, that gun will fire upon them and try to destroy them. In most cases a single flak cannon can get two shots off before any projectile like a missile makes contact with the hull, but rarely more. That means at best each flak cannon can only stop two missiles from any salvo that is fired at your ship. 


However, this is best case. There is always a chance a flak cannon will miss its target. Further more, depending on your level of tech, some higher tier missiles may have enough health that they require two hits from a flak cannon in order to fell them, making flak even less effective when the enemy outclasses you in tech. Finally, it is also the case that different classes of ships will primarily target different things. The Tier 1 attacker class of ship for example will almost always target protector and coordinator class ships above other targets, and they will also focus fire as a flotilla on that single target. This means that a potentially large amount of missiles can target a single ship, overhwleming its flak defenses in the process.


Other classes of ship have differing preferd targets, and will sometimes semi-randomly assign targets.  This can have a dramatically different effect on how battles go depsite most other things being equal. For example, United Empire's scout class ships have two weapon slots and makes for a good early game aggression option. But despite it having similar numbers of weapon slots for say slugs, they will fail to be as effective damage wise as their attacker class ships with the same number of slugs due to the attack class ships focused fire ability. Focus fire means that any enemy ships will fall faster than if damage was spread out evenly, and as a result their flotillas ships will take less return fire as more of the enemies weapons will be destroyed lowering their dps as the fight goes on.


Hopefully this is all beginning to shape a very clear picture if why you may be losing your battles despite putting flak cannons on all your ships when facing a dedicated missile fleet. My advice when dealing with this kind of enemy who is using 100% missile strategy would be to get a handful of protector or even coordinator class ships armed to the teeth with flak and hull plating. These will be your shield and they will likely fall in battle, but they buy you time for the rest of your fleet to deal damage. I would then equip several of my own attack class ships with a combination of missiles and flak. Only use flak if you expect your sheild wall will fail before the enemy...or if they are using scout ships which randomly target everything in your fleet realtively evenly instead of focusing fire on protectors. The end result should be that due to them focused on ships specialized to survive missile vollies as long as possible, but with them lacking any missile defense of their own; they will fall very fast to your own missile barrage while you take minimal casualties.  This is because they will almost certainly open at long range. If you choose a short range tactic you will destroy some of their ships during the long range phase due to their lack of flak, but you yourself will mostly eat the missile damage to your shield wall. Then as you close your guns will open up with more damage than missiles and eventaully mop up the surviviros. 


This gets more complicated when dealing with multiple flotillas, but you get the gist by now i hope. Maybe somebody reading this will find it helpful. If so come check out my youtube channel at TheNosePlays for more insights into the game. I recenrtly started a new series using the new Umbral Chior faction. 


 

Updated 6 years ago.
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