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Core Cracker/Obliterator Political Ramifications

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6 years ago
Dec 16, 2018, 2:00:50 AM

I've found it a bit odd that while there are some hefty resource requirements and military drawbacks (ie, no weapons besides core crackers on carriers with core crackers) to the use of Core Cracker carriers and Obliterators, there's little in the way of political consequences for using them. This especially stuck out to me because Endless Space 2 is a game about the rise of an empire. You're not playing as an already established nation, you're playing as a newly created nation just starting to reach out to the stars, with relatively primitive tech when you first start out. Planet destroyers aren't simply unavailable to you at the start of the game, they just flat out do not exist (besides the odd potential Endless relic, I suppose). An empire gaining the ability to destroy planets should be like a space version of dropping the first nuclear bomb. It's a momentous occasion that completely and permanently changes the face of interstellar warfare, and it should come with significant social and political ramifications just as the Hiroshima bomb did.


With that in mind, I think destroying planet should have a few effects that come with it.


First and foremost is the effect of being the first one to destroy a planet. Being the first to use an Obliterator or Core Cracker causes a political event for every empire except Cravers (I'll get to them later). For the player who destroyed the planet, it causes a political crisis with significant negative effects on the empire. That player's advisors and people are mortified by the destruction; completely destroying a world and killing millions, if not billions of people, all in one terrible moment. The player can choose to do nothing about this political crisis, resulting in a large approval debuff and a very small FIDS malus on every system for a few turns. Alternatively, this player can order a temporary media blackout to control the spread of this terrible news, which will result in a much smaller approval debuff but a very significant influence and industry debuff for several turns. Either choice will also result in an increase to the Pacifist party, but will also see an approval bonus on all Militarist populations (the Militarists are horrified, but not as much as everyone else).


The empire whose planet was destroyed will get a very different event. A significant approval bonus will occurr as the empire's citizens become united like never before to avenge the terrible deed that ocurred. Additionally they will receive manpower and industry bonuses, as well as a science bonus and a reduction in the cost needed to build Core Cracker ships and specialize Behemoths into Obliterators. They will also receive a second, much smaller cost reduction towards Core Cracker ships (but not Obliterators). This second bonus, however, is permanent. The power of the Militarist and/or Industrialist political parties will also increase.


Any empires not related in this event will gain a small approval malus on their systems (say, -5 or so), but they will also gain bonuses to manpower and science, as well as a temporary cost reduction in Obliterator specializations and the construction of Core Cracker ships.


The one exception, as mentioned earlier, are the Cravers. They could still have the events when they are the first victim of a planet destroyer, or when unaffected by one and just a bystander, but their event when first destroying a planet is different. They simply don't care about the ethical or moral ramifications of destroying planets, and most of their people aren't aware enough to even understand them anyway, so they receive no debuff to approval. Instead, the bishops and queens are up in arms about destroying a perfectly good food source: like a starving man watching someone take a flamethrower to a perfectly good sandwich. Upkeep on Core Crackers and all Behemoths would increase significantly, and both manpower and food would suffer debuffs.


Ramifications wouldn't need to stop at the first planet destroyer firing, either. Each use of a planet-destroyer could result in Industrialists and Militarists losing power and Pacifists and Ecologists gaining power, while they would also apply a stacking approval debuff on the empire which would disappear after a few turns, but would nonetheless discourage using them too often. There is also a small but significant (20% or so) chance that destroying a planet will result in another political crisis, regardless of whether or not your empire was the first one to use a planet-destroyer, though this political crisis would not be nearly as bad as the one for empires who are the first to destroy a planet.

Updated a month ago.
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6 years ago
Dec 17, 2018, 2:24:52 AM

I definitely support this. Although a rudamentary system exists where other empires condemn you with text only, I would love to see it expanded in the ways you have mentioned. It would certainly make someone think twice about using a Core Cracker / Obliterator because of the ramifications. Very nice idea!

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6 years ago
Dec 20, 2018, 11:35:22 PM

Upvoted. I like almost all the ideas here except for a few points regarding the bonuses and debuffs of the victim.


"The empire whose planet was destroyed will get a very different event. A significant approval bonus will occurr as the empire's citizens become united like never before to avenge the terrible deed that ocurred."


   I agree with the sentiment that the populace becomes unified, but strongly disagree with the approval bonus. These people just lost a world with friends, family, and everyone and everything else on it. If anything the empire should receive a significant approval debuff considering that the surviving populations would be uneasy about their future and have obvious concerns that their world is the next to be destroyed.


"Additionally they will receive manpower and industry bonuses, as well as a science bonus and a reduction in the cost needed to build Core Cracker ships and specialize Behemoths into Obliterators."


    The manpower, industry and science bonuses align well with "unified people" idea from the last sentence. This is much more sensible than an approval bonus: you could reasonably expect citizens giving all they can to aid the war economy after such a drastic attack. As to the cost reduction in Core Crackers and Obliterators, that doesn't necessarily work well here either. It makes more sense to me those bonuses are applied to the research and production of defenses against world destroying weapons: The Sentinel and Planetary Shield.

    Alternatively, a contextual choice may work better here: You chose either a Militarist response centered around a message of revenge (buffs to Core Crackers and Obliterators) or an Industrailist response centered around a message of prevention of additional world destroying attacks (buffs to Sentinel and Planetary Shield). Personally I like the choice here because it fits well with ES2's political contextual choice gameplay.


"They will also receive a second, much smaller cost reduction towards Core Cracker ships (but not Obliterators). This second bonus, however, is permanent. The power of the Militarist and/or Industrialist political parties will also increase."


   This makes perfect sense. You could reasonably expect at least some of the population harbouring a deep thirst revenge. A small but permanent buff to Core Cracker production fits nicely. To go a little deeper in detail about the political parties: maybe you get a 20 turn buff to the Militarist and/or Industrial parties and a debuff to the Pacifist Party instead of the usual buff to Pacifist Party that you get for being the victim of a conventional attack. That way you have a better chance of getting (or keeping) the Militarists or Industrialists in power for the next election cycle and can use their laws to synergize with offensive and economic buffs you get from this event.


All in all I love your core idea here, and no offence is meant by this critique and I hope you find my insights helpful!

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6 years ago
Dec 21, 2018, 3:41:46 AM

To be sure, the actual nature of the debuffs and buffs are largely placeholders. I'm not knowledgeable when it comes to balance, which is also why I didn't give much in the way of hard values. I figure that if the devs like and choose to use this idea, they will alter the values and types of buffs and/or debuffs as necessary. It's mostly the concepts behind them that I wanted to get across.


With that said, I agree that the approval bonus could be changed to a debuff, but it should probably be a small one. The point of this event is to add heavy consequences to being the first to destroy a planet; consequences that significantly harm the perpetrator and aid the victim. That and, from a lore perspective, the worry that the victim's people would feel should be somewhat mitigated by the fact that they're also angry about the titanic loss of life. The worry is there, but it's nothing compared to the horror felt by the perpetrator's people.


" Alternatively, a contextual choice may work better here: You chose either a Militarist response centered around a message of revenge (buffs to Core Crackers and Obliterators) or an Industrailist response centered around a message of prevention of additional world destroying attacks (buffs to Sentinel and Planetary Shield). "


This is a very good idea. The idea behind the buffs to Core Crackers/Obliterators was that the victim empire has entered something of an arms race to produce planet destroying weapons of their own, or if they already have them to use them to enact revenge on the ones who destroyed their world. That said, allowing the player to make an alternative choice to focus on Industrialism and defense instead would be even better. More choices rather than less is rarely a bad thing from a gameplay perspective.


Do you have any thoughts on the alternate Cravers event? Or the idea of giving a slight approval debuff and significant science/industry/manpower buffs to empires uninvolved in the planet-destroying event?

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6 years ago
Dec 21, 2018, 5:35:31 PM

Right, I agree it's appropriate to leaving any precise balancing to the devs and beta testers while we flesh out the overall concepts on this website.  I really like your concept, and I hope it finds its way into a future update.


My main objection is simply the approval buff for the victim. Like you say from the lore perspective the victims should be experiencing anger and fear. I maintain that neither of those emotions contribute to an approval buff, but they would contribute to the man power, industry and science buff. But it seems like you might agree with my arguement against an approval buff, so that tells me that my logic is probably sound here. Whether it's a debuff or approval neutral doesn't especially matter to me, I just don't agree with the logic that it should be a buff.


The other point I wanted to elaborate on was the political effects for the victim because I felt that your statement about that didn't go into deep enough detail. The way the game works now is when you are attacked the Pacifist Party gets a buff* (you can see this after an attack on your empire in the political events window, you know the one that breaks down your population's reactions to all recent events), and that goes against the spirit of your concept. Also, the addition of a contextual response for the victim to choose a defensive or an offensive focus meshes perfectly with E2's existing gameplay, so I'm glad you agree with that :)


*Note: I haven't confirmed if this is also true for getting attacked by a planet or system destroying weapon because I haven't experienced that kind of attack yet. I fully agree with your statement that the vicitim of the attack gets a boost to Militarist and/or Industrialist parties. So if the Pacifist Party does indeed get the buff for getting attacked by a planet cracker, that buff should be removed if and when this idea is implemented.


I liked your arguements on the Cravers, the political crisis for the attacker, and effects on other empires. I don't want to come across as a nitpicker here because I do like everything in your concept except the approval buff to the victim.


If I were to suggest one other thing while I have your attention it would be maybe to add diplomatic pressure effects against the attacker. Maybe the other empires each apply a small amount of diplomatic pressure on the attacker that increases each time the weapons are used. That way, the some other empires could be in a better position to apply diplomatic sanctions against a planet destroying aggressor. That would intregrate well with your concept also because there would be real diplomatic consequences for the wonton use of these weapons. The other empires could harm the attackers economy through the various sanctions that the basic and advanced diplomatic demands apply.

Updated 6 years ago.
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