Damnd...... and me is sitting @ the office....... is somebody out there who wants to break my arm or something...... >_<

We release our mod: Help the Harmony. Let us know what you think of the changes! Link.

They are underpowered, and due to a extremely slow start coupled with needing ships to defend from rushes makes them extremely hard to get off the ground.



The current state of the games combat mechanics also complicate things...



If their home system could be super buffed they could have a great turtle/steam-roll strategy on the go where their home system is as good as 3 or 4 for the first 70 turns then they could really make a break out later on while having the production capacity to match a easier expanding empire like the pilgrims.



Edit: So it turns out making the Harmony home system produce FIS with a 300% bonus fully fixes the problem. There we go!

...



I'm talking about one specific, non-avoidable scenario. When that aggressive player sets his mind on attacking Harmony from the start, discouraging scouts is not the problem that needs a solution.



I'm talking about waves of ships that will out attrition a Harmony player when the aggressive player exceeds the ship making capacity of the Harmony player (because Harmony is slowly getting further and further behind as they fight back). No other faction has this unique problem.



I'm not talking about any situation other than when an aggressive player attacks you at the beginning as being non-viable, you can survive those other situations. I appreciate the gesture, but I don't need advice on scenarios that I feel are the same for any faction.



Once the Harmony gets past the earliest part when they are vulnerable, all's fair (the good Harmony player has made use of the opportunity to expand and setup infrastructure). At that point and all other scenarios, the point is moot.

Greetings from 2016! I know amplitude is paying attention to their new 2d side-scroller that just came out, but new players are going to discover ES: D for years to come, especially as Amplitude makes more games. I always check out other games a publisher has made, assuming I like one they've already done. Once you make a good enough 4x game, people won't let it go. My only hope is that when ES2 comes out, it is almost 100% ES: D + everything ES2 comes up with. Legacy modding support would be great, or heck just use my Master Mod Medley as a starting point. Consider this permission.



Anyways, as a new player I hopped directly into the Harmony. Usually when games introduce new, exiting additions they tend to balance them too lightly. This creates the usual week(s) later nerf to all their favorite toys. I watched LP's of this game as the Harmony, so I knew this wasn't the case and that the race was significantly different. Said LP was the only reason I decided I liked it enough to fight through Steam to get this game. Man, I hate steam. I'm no stranger to 4x games so I instantly knew that the Harmony were the Sillicoid and that's how I played them. Basically I learned Disharmony on the Harmony. So I got good at them.



Still though, everything people said in the above is true. The harmony are weak. Powerhouses like the two human factions do make it very tough. The late-game, however is almost irrelevant. There is no clawing your way to a win when you're behind after the 100 turn mark. Either you do well enough by then to see victory coming up slowly but surely, or you're waiting for an opponent to suddenly win in 50-100 turns. After learning the harmony, I learned all the other races (who play like 'standard' races are expected to: expand with heroes, diplomacy with gold, trade treaty for science, build via Strength Through Joy, instantly and cheaply retrofit your ships for war so no one can stop you). It was easy, really. Obviously the Harmony do none of those things.



So one of the things I'll be doing besides creating my Master Mod Medley is paying close attention to this Help the Harmony mod. I would like to commend Amplitude Studios, not only on making a very, very clean looking game, but listening to their fans. Making a race like the Harmony which totally goes against the YOU WANT DUST paradigm, takes some bravery and I congratulate whoever in the company pushed for this race. You know who you are. Perhaps you were held back by corporate meddling. Either way the weakness of the race is not proof of its failure. Can you tell that I really like the Harmony yet? They just need some buffs in the form of mods (mainly to the custom faction picks).



Lastly the malus doesn't double when you go down to 100%/0%, sovereign.

Future spot for my Master Mod Medley

Well, considering making the multiplayer part of the game against AI's playable beyond turn 60 is not and has not been enough to get their attention I didn't really get my hopes up. This problem isn't really game breaking even though it makes one faction unplayable, but I sure as hell won't buy any more of their games before I hear from a trusted source that the multiplayer aspect in them actually works. (Hints towards another thread that addresses a multiplayer de-sync problem and how this fine fellow bought a 35 euro game with his friend to play the game in multiplayer only to find out that the multiplayer doesn't work)



Vulgrim over and out. QQ

Sadly i dont think there will be any balance changes anymore (I gues?) there are a few things that are just game breaking and/or overpowered which I could write an essay about it but the Devs definitely and understandable have other priorities.





For the Harmony I can just recommend you try a game taking kitchen chemists and all levels of scientists (due the "on system mechanic" of the "tax" slider) for your science multiplier your BASE production is the most important thing and Kitchen Chemists will bring you more Science then all three levels of Scientists...and combined with the scientists bonus (which also benefits from Kitchen Chemists) you have theoreticaly a high Science production from kitchen chemists and from the +60% Science from an actual + 30 % Science bonus trait (if the slider would be at 100%)



And dont take Black thumbs beyond level I...as a negative % Malus is doubled while your slider is on -100% food...causing that you cant put your science slider to a high level as your systems will starv even more quickly.



If u can spend the points also pick efficent stock as it followes the same mechanics...+10 % Food is a +20% food bonus if the slider is on +100% food same with science again...sadly the Industrie bonus is still merely noticable before systems purification as despite having no approval...Harmony just gets all penalties of it while expanding...and colonizing Tier 3 Planets ist nothing compared to the power of a ecstatic approval rating.

Sovereign wrote:
1. I found out that as annyoing as it is...imho you have to maximize the resonant vessel bonus as early as you can...without it...you have no dam chance.

1. While you're right, it's a choice between two almost equally bad options. Now, I used the bonus they create to my advantage as well, but the bonus they give compared to what other faction's solar systems have by default is plain ridiculous. As you said, your production will pretty much be null during the time you create the required ships, but what I'm trying to say is that by the time you reach 200 industry with the use of resonant fleets, other factions will have 1000-1500 industry in their main industrial solar system without them, by default. The bonus is insignificant, you're still looking at a fraction of the industry, a joke of the amount of the FIS that the other races produce.

Sovereign wrote:
2. Secondly you have to play them as a military faction and utilize their hidden "Team Spirit" ability and metal memory which will give you in the later game the most powerful ships (especially tanks) of ALL races.

2. I claim that you will not see the later game with the Harmony. Even when you utilize all the good attributes of Harmony (such as the resonant fleets) your industry, population and science will be so handicapped that you will either a) somehow be able to hold out against the AI and just as you get your flow going, lose because some other faction will win a science victory, or b) be just simply crushed by their fleets. Against human players, I don't think you, I, or anyone will stand a chance.



Also it's not like you can really spam any ships because your food production is too low even without the -50% food penalty.



I agree that with the Harmony it's all about surviving, but the problem with merely being there and not expanding is that without military expansion some other faction will snatch a science victory from you -> Remember that everything I say in this and my previous post is based on the assumption that you play against endless AI (the way you should play I'm too scared of human opponents :3).

Sovereign wrote:
Also your Science should be superior to most races arround turn 40-50 (fast speed)...it falls behind later (as u loose alot of science every turn u spend for growth now) so you should kill your enemys in that time frame with your advanced weaponary.

I can't say anything about fast speed because I only play on normal speed, but in the Harmony games I've played (five tries, each ending at around 100 turns) I've been miles behind in everything.

Sovereign wrote:
But to be honest if i could play against myself...i wouldnt stand a chance against the normal top tier races. Cause most of them would just outproduce the Harmony before they are able to build proper tank fleets. As low Industrie (even if u go fully on industry improvments right from the start) is the big weakness imho of the Harmony. The resonant Vessel Bonus has to be build up first...and what is a flat 30 Industrie bonus compared to the up to (with improvments) 30% Industrie Bonus of a fervent Dust using race in the later game?

While the end game Harmony fleets are very strong, I don't see them saving your ass simply because you have most likely lost the game by then, one way or another. That or be so severely behind in both science and the size of your empire that your fleets aren't OP, and even if they were, the other faction could out-spam you. I.E by the time you're making your tier 1 ships and researching tier two weapons, other factions are making thrice the number of better ships while simultaneously expanding, terraforming and using ind-sci conversion and whatnot. Otherwise this is where we agree. I couldn't play against myself either. I don't think anyone could. No matter the conditions or the race I'd be playing against, I'd be crushed by the mini-me playing on the other side. This is exactly why Harmony needs to be reworked.

I have to say i played the Harmony to a ridic high amount in the last weeks as I saw it as a challange to make them work using all of my experience. So i set up dozenz of singleplayer games on with the same map settings always colonizing the same systems in the same order etc and made about 20 games with turn 24 and 35 game challange (i save there to compare all the stats to different custom traits and different building orders with the Harmony Affinity)



1. I found out that as annyoing as it is...imho you have to maximize the resonant vessel bonus as early as you can...without it...you have no dam chance.

2. Secondly you have to play them as a military faction and utilize their hidden "Team Spirit" ability and metal memory which will give you in the later game the most powerful ships (especially tanks) of ALL races.



Still there early game is a dam hard time and building your trash ships for the resonant vessel bonus will slow down your population growth even more(u cant have the slider always on science) or prevents you from building improvments or industrie conversion.



Also you need to build an early defensive fleet or in MP or even in SP some rusher race will just eat up your resonant vessel trash fleets...crippling your economy and may give them a huge amount of science if they have knowledge gathering.



With the Harmony its all about surviving, surviving, surviving...to the point were u can purge your systems...then begin to build nearly invincible tanks...(the AI as they use no bombers -.- is not capable of destryoing even one single Tank fleet of Harmony Cruisers ...u can win the game theoretically with one single fleet)...In MP ...IF you survive that long even for human players such strong tanks give the regular glass canon user hard times. Also your Science should be superior to most races arround turn 40-50 (fast speed)...it falls behind later (as u loose alot of science every turn u spend for growth now) so you should kill your enemys in that time frame with your advanced weaponary.



But...as i said...if you are rushed...pray to the endless your preperations are enough (hope for alot of tundras early game)





To play the Harmony is more like micro as the acutual race setup...u have to know exactly when and how to grow system...when to research which technology and when to build fleets. And thats the problem...as in my opinion there are not many different ways to play them and I dont like it to be under presure (omg turn 18..i have to build the non bayoranic science stuff ahh but i still dont have 15 ships orbiting that outpost, now oh my god its already turn 22-24...now i have to bump my sience slider up till turn 27).



But to be honest if i could play against myself...i wouldnt stand a chance against the normal top tier races. Cause most of them would just outproduce the Harmony before they are able to build proper tank fleets. As low Industrie (even if u go fully on industry improvments right from the start) is the big weakness imho of the Harmony. The resonant Vessel Bonus has to be build up first...and what is a flat 30 Industrie bonus compared to the (with improvments) 30% Industrie Bonus of a ecstatic approval using race in the later game?

Gotta throw my two cents in as this isn't getting as much attention as it should.



Like many others, I've played the game for several hundreds of hours and beat huge galaxy with 7 endless AI's with every race (with some races even more than once)... Every race except Harmony. I'm just putting that there to clarify that this is not something that depends on the skill of the player.



Now in to the problems. Harmony's production? Well, it sucks. That's putting it blatantly but it's the truth.



Food and industry:



Even when you focus fully on food with your food-science slider and turn the industry-to-food conversion on (which needless to say, will both handicap your science advancement and make that specific solar system useless in terms of production), you will still create food at approximately three times slower rate than the other races do. It's... It's ridiculous. I colonized this dream system (picture below) at turn 4 and at turn 80 I had 20 population out of 33 with a ridiculously low production (see second picture). For most of the time, I had industry-to-food conversion on and the food-science slider set at 40% (+20% food, -20% science). For other races (with an administrator) you would max out the population at around turn 40-45, you'd have at least six times the industry and the science and also much more ships than with the harmony. You'd also have a lot of dust to use as you please. Does that sound even remotely balanced? It's bullshit. I've never seen that good of a system developing so slowly and at the end of the day, having industry that low. In fact, I don't think I've ever had any system that has developed so slowly and had such a low industry and science and this was supposed to be a dream system. Speaks in volumes about how bad Harmony currently is.



Science:



Needless to say, their science generation sucks too. Not a biggie considering they have neither the industry nor the population for sufficient science generation. Technically speaking you can have the highest possible science production, but that's just not how it goes. If you're in doubt, look at the science production of what should have been a huge industrial solar system. And that's at turn 80. I've seen bigger numbers on worse systems at turn 40. You can't focus your food-science slider to science either because your food production is pathetic even as it is; even when you focus fully on food (food-science slider set to 0% and industry-to-food conversion on) you will make less food than the other races do. Again, this can be seen from my example system. Notice that most of the time I had industry-to-food conversion on combined with a 10-20% food bonus from the food-industry slider. I couldn't really make more ships than 12 either because doing them would handicap my food production even more. Like it wasn't bad already? Go harmony!



System at turn 15







System at turn 80







I wouldn't even dream about choosing Harmony in online games. I can't even choose it against AI's because it's so pathetic. No matter how great systems you get, what your playstyle is, how experienced you are or how good you are at micromanaging the food-science bar to your benefit, you will always make around 50% of the FIS of the other races. And that doesn't even include the massive amount of benefits that heroes, dust and positive approval gives you. In total you're probably looking at somewhere between 30-40% of the production and advancement of other races and my example solar system proves that. Now I understand that towards the end of the game, Harmony gets a lot of boosts, possibly even becoming better than the other races. But when it takes 300 turns for harmony to get where other races gets at turn 100, is it really relevant anymore? You basically won't get past 175-200 turns without either winning or losing towards endless AI anyways and with Harmony you will get crushed long before that.



Now, playing as Harmony is the closest thing you can get to a handicap mode. Problem is, they are too handicapped for even that. I believe I would do better with the Sowers against endless AI with nothing but negative attributes and without the ability to make offensive ships. Actually, I probably would. This race is as broken as it gets. It's unplayable. It needs a rework, not just some few tweaks here and there. It won't be enough. They are completely and utterly useless at the moment. I just can't emphasize that enough.

Unless you are me, and have little to no hope of properly managing my expansion, military designs, research and economy (Or in this case, food-science slider).



Im like, seriously bad, and the complexity of Disharmys ships now kinda put me off the expansion.





Im still loving the more simple vanilla balance and siege mechanics.



And modding, im kinda boss at managing them XMLs.

if you spawn as a custom harmony with growth bonuses, tolerant, and a food anomaly on a system with lava planets then the rest of the galaxy will soon die. painfully.

Well do we have to consider that more competitive multiplayer games will always make the default factions seem a little lack luster?



What are custom Harmony factions like? Are they good?



Because otherwise, the default factions are kinda fine for SP games, as it ties into the games Lore a lot more, and it's possible the Harmony are just not as strong as the more standard factions.



Unless you play Amoeba, Amoebas are my nemesis.



So y'all can suck it.

Something else that might be nice would be if their default skills were reworked to include Tolerant lv 1. So they could pick up planets with important resources early on, even if their FIDS would be almost nothing.

how about trying to stay isolated? i propose instead of building massive fleets to help defend yourself you make a few ships and intercept all scouts. this would probably discourage most people from attackeing as they have no information about you. this would probaly work best in a spiral galaxy but it still may be effective in other types.

AB, thanks for the suggestions but I've already done all that. Growth plan and militarists does not help enough in the scenario I outlined. They are useful but they still do not change the fact you are slowly killing yourself if you are spitting out ships constantly with the penalty it gives.



I personally think militarists is a given but that 15 pts for growth plan is not worth it in multiplayer, fighting for your life at the beginning, IF YOU ARE HALVING THE BONUS!



I do suggest cloning to help the low food planets grow, but even this gets penalized in the one scenario I am complaining about.



And yes, if you can survive, Harmony is strong.

Harmony are unconsistent at the beginning and can be endlesslike at the end... but they need to survive, ans that part is not easy at all....

if you add growth plan and militarists, that might help

Sovereign wrote:
God i put so much hope in this, i hope for a mega buff cause nothing less is needed.

I still feel that harmony is still not a viable faction for multiplayer due to the 50% penalty when building non-colony ships. A harmony player who is attacked from the start by an aggressive player is killing himself building ships to fight for survival and it just gets slowly worse.



I know it stinks to be any faction and be attacked from the start, but no other faction is forced to cripple itself at the beginning if it needs fight to survive. It is an impossible situation.



I know the penalty used to be much worse...the current state is that unless harmony is lucky enough to avoid the cross-hairs of an early aggressive player they are going to get crushed first.