Need Harder AI

Antera

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 8:46:06 PM

Agree with 1 and 3. Is there no way to tweak their fleet composition by weight? Or maybe put in fewer invasion templates for their ship design?

With regards to 2, here I'm going to show my ignorance. I thought being sieged is a starsystem status. Is it possible to change their build priority when their system enter siege status? (Would only make the system being sieged build ships, but better nothing I guess?)

Suzuteo

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Suzuteo

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3 000g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 5, 2013, 9:07:11 AM

You can pretty much play them off on one another. If any of them declare war on you, ally with a neighbor and stomp them.

Ail

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Ail

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6 400g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 8, 2013, 9:14:04 PM

Commander wrote:
I've sort of come to the conclusion that, if the system isn't full on population, the AI dedicates everything to Food, if the system isn't fully developed in terms of system improvements, everything is dedicated to Industry. If both of those are satisfied, everything is dedicated to Dust.

Sorry, but your theory doesn't quite meet the reality here.

The exact exploitation-picking behaviour is described in PlanetInfrastructure.xml:

Food: You got this one right. The AI will focus on food as long as there's still population to grow or when the systems has an A.I.S.

Industry: If the AI is Sower it will build this everywhere, if not, then it will build industry on the planets that give a bonus to industry-exploit like Lava, Tundra and Jungle.

Dust: If the AI is in financial-troubles it will use this everywhere. If not, it will turn exactly those planets to produce dust that get a bonus for that exploit like Arid, Desert and Terran.

Science: AI will build it on planets that have a bonus on Science like Ocean, Arctic and Barren.

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 9, 2013, 6:30:57 AM

regarding science and industry output the AI usually picks the optimum configuration in my matches. Sometimes it even uses exploits I "dont get " but double-checking the numbers makes the AI right. Just the food-to-industry conversion messes with the AI a lot.

Ail

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Ail

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6 400g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 9, 2013, 8:26:20 AM

How does the food-to-industry conversion mess with the AI?

It simply changes all planets to food once it has it because of the multipliers you can accumulate for food make it extremely powerful.

I wanted to express, that I simply don't feel that the system- and exploit-management is the achilles-verse of the AI.

We put a lot of effort into it by modding it and telling Meedoc how we think so he can apply this into future changes on his side.

I think the AI's weaknesses mostly come from other issues.

What I also find interesting: When you look at the general-forums you'll find threads from people saying they shelved the game because they can't win on newbie and here's people discussing why the AI even with it's boni on endless can't compete. ^^

Stargem

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Stargem

Newcomer

22 900g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 9, 2013, 9:30:25 AM

One of the reasons why I don't like the bonuses and penalties of the difficulty system is how it throws a wrench into understanding the situation. People can't quite pin things down, simply because the bonuses obfuscate what is and isn't broken about the AI. Heck, the only reason why I play Endless is because I hope that the AI would play smarter than Newbie - but I am going to guess that "smarter" play is dependent on the bonuses that the AI receives, not from better programming. That is to say a "Newbie" AI assumes it is in a weak position, while an "Endless" AI thinks it has a strong one. Problems arise for the latter when forced into a corner.

This is pure speculation, unfortunately.

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 12:37:04 AM

You already have harder AI available in the Super Nova mod.

This is what it looks like 50 turns in to a Serious game with 8 factions using a custom faction with all the best traits on a good starting system in an excellent starting constellation.

They've colonized the central star systems long before you get there.

You're in sixth place and will have to come from behind.

You'd better hurry if you want to make treaties.

They've got significant fleets you will have to contend with.

In addition, the Super Nova factions are smarter about colony development, research priorities, ship design, fleet composition, and even targeting strategies.

Finally, they cheat less than the vanilla AI.

VIPflipstar

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VIPflipstar

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70 500g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 1:03:06 AM

^That's looks interesting, thanks! Will check it out. I prefer to constantly be playing catchup, and feel that I win microbattles through human thinking rather than the progressive steamroll.

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 7:00:44 AM

if you define "smarter" by "being better then I am at nearly everything (research, production etc)" then the regular AI is already smart enough. For me "smart" means clever use of resources and actions taken. If I do everything right and am heavily focused on research and STILL the AI manages to colonize the central hub long before I even get there....thats not "smart" for me.

My personal view only of course.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 12:52:45 PM

MTB-Fritz wrote:
if you define "smarter" by "being better then I am at nearly everything (research, production etc)" then the regular AI is already smart enough.

I will be very interested if that "cheat less than the vanilla AI" is true.

I can imagine how an experienced player can enhance the AIs if he has the ability to modify all the strategies the AIs use.

I have read the details of Super Nova, is there any version that only enhances the AIs?

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 2:58:59 PM

As a modder, I'm limited to tweaking the values exposed in the moddable xml files. Only the devs can really make the AI smarter.

I started with no AI cheating. Then I added what I had to in order to make the game challenging and fun. I've been adding more and more cheating as I discover weaknesses in the AI and try to alleviate them.

The Heavy Nova mod enhances the AI without changing the game nearly as much. It's pre-disharmony but as close as you're likely to get to just enhancing the AI.

Antera

Newcomer

Antera

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 3:59:48 PM

I haven't been looking into AI in detail so please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I can tell the game AI basically use a set of weights and an RNG to determine what action to take next and how to react in a given situation. Its not unlike a robot that has a set of pre-programmed actions. You push this button, it punch you in the face, etc. The problem is that any such AI is will inevitably predictable because the player controls a major part of the stimuli that the AI uses to make decision. Leading to the perception of a dumb AI.

Seems to me like if you really want the AI to play well, you need a predictive AI, as opposed to the reactive AI above. Something that actually predicts predicts how good the situation becomes for it if it chooses different options. Such an AI would be hard to make since you need to teach it the value of its prediction. But I don't see another way to cover for a reactive AI's natural weakness, short of massive cheating.

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 5:06:25 PM

That's true, but there may be simple things that can be done to make the current AI much more effective.

These are the three biggest problems I see that I can't mod away:

1. The AI doesn't group its ships into the largest possible fleets.

/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/13008-improving-ai-fleet-management

2. The AI doesn't build ships aggressively enough, especially after its initial fleets have been destroyed. I recently jailbroke into a game where the Cravers were at war with three other races, their fleets were decimated, their systems were being invaded. None of their star systems were building warships. Some were even on industry to science. They had plenty of money and morale and threat. I don't understand why they were not building ships.

3. The AI doesn't use invasion ships properly. They should use combat fleets to establish space superiority, then use invasion ships to conquer systems. They should protect their invasion ships with combat fleets. Their invasion fleets should retreat when attacked. Instead, the AI attacks with invasion ships unsupported. I had to mod the invasion ships into half combat to alleviate this; but it's not ideal.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 4, 2013, 9:57:55 AM

KrayZee wrote:
I want to add that the addition of Bombers and Fighters to the game made the AI even weaker, lets face it, they are pretty much useless, they need to be at least 5 to 10 times as strong as they are right now in the beta patch.

the AI however uses them way to much, even building dreadnoughts around them with nothing but defence and bomber modules (why do they take up 2 special module slots anyway?)

I'm not sure if it was added into the recent patch but the AI does use the invasion mechanic quite often. one time I lost 3 systems in 1 round because of that.. though it was very easy to get them back, because the AI sends siege fleets without escorts

I noticed that.

In my first match(Endless level) after Disharmony released, I found that the AIs kind of like to equip these tiny little bugs, trying to advertise them or what, and they fly around like beheaded flies after their mother ships get shot down.

But it occurs from time to time, I didn't see it much in my last match.

I said that in other threads, too, and I agree with some people who really see the big picture: Disharmony has some issues but not the minor ones which really don't matter at all.

It has a good blueprint but the AIs don't keep up with it. Only the players know how to master it, and it's a pity because we do need good opponents in single player.

But I believe the dev can make that happen in no time.

3 one round invasions in one match? And that is what we call improvements.

I played 5 or 6 Disharmony Endless matches with different factions, finished 3 of them, gave up the other 3 because of the hero management bug in Beta(you have to exit to desktop and then restart the game to access the hero management panel, which is annoying, so I quit the Beta).

And the AIs only have done that one round invasion to me once and bombed me once totally!

If they keep working on it, I think there will be some progress.

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 11, 2013, 10:06:40 PM

There are settings to specify fleet composition by weight, but the game seems to disregard them. I think it builds invasion ships based on the defense of the system it wants to invade, but I'm not sure.

In Super Nova, I've eliminated all the invasion templates except for an invasion Corvette to get them started and an invasion Cruiser for the high end. It helps.

Modders can add rules to prevent building an improvement based on star system status like besieged. Ships can't be controlled directly. They have settings that define threat levels and the maximum % of star systems that can be building ships and they work somewhat. The problem is that there are a lot of behind the scenes factors that also seem to affect ship construction.

In my games, once a factions initial fleet is destroyed, they don't build more ships in significant quantity and it's just a long boring slog to invade their worlds. I've tried changing every setting I can find and so far nothing will make them build ships once they are in that state.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 12, 2013, 4:00:57 PM

LetoSilvermane wrote:
These are the three biggest problems I see that I can't mod away:

What an amazing insight!

If you are the devs, the AI problems will be probably solved now.

I am not questioning the competence of the devs, but it is clear now why they can do it but haven't done it.

The new title must be one of the reasons. Especially it is a very small company, and I don't expect it can produce tons of great works like other big ones.

And now my solution is waiting, which is not recommended, but seems to be a reasonable one.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 12, 2013, 4:58:41 PM

LetoSilvermane wrote:
2. The AI doesn't build ships aggressively enough, especially after its initial fleets have been destroyed. I recently jailbroke into a game where the Cravers were at war with three other races, their fleets were decimated, their systems were being invaded. None of their star systems were building warships. Some were even on industry to science. They had plenty of money and morale and threat. I don't understand why they were not building ships.

Because you talked about "jailbreak," I have a question for you.

I notice that X-Com: Enemy Unknown definitely "cheats" because we can save and load, and it helps discover something about the AI of the game.

The enemies in Enemy Unknown will suddenly spawn if the player does something very foolish.

Sometimes what players do is not very stupid, but the way the enemies spawn is quite threatening.

Why do we know it "cheats"? Because if you load the game, you will know the enemies who suddenly spawn are not "waiting" there.

They really "spawn" for the purpose to surprise the players, especially when the players expose weaknesses.

Of course the devs of the game think it is a way to improve the competence of the AI against players.

And sometimes the AIs in Endless Space do the same thing.

First I thought that a fleet suddenly shows up and attacks my undefended or weak fleet or star system because the AIs detect the weakness and then mobilize the fleet.

And it is like how players do.

But after loading the game, I realized that the fleet which caught me unguarded was probably "not there" at all.

It could spawn on purpose.

Because some players talked about if the AIs of Endless Space really "cheat," I think only people like you can answer it.

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 12, 2013, 7:40:03 PM

Pirates will spawn on uncolonized star systems after most of the galaxy has been colonized.

That's not really cheating though. The idea is that the inhabitants of that world turned to piracy since they had no strong central government policing them.

If you park a ship in orbit around the system, it will prevent pirates from forming.

I've never seen Endless Space spawn a faction fleet though.

What the AI in Endless Space does do is use buyout to buy ships quickly, even on a blockaded system. Then it launches the fleet and it appears over that system.

P.S. XCOM Enemy Unknown was a great game. I created a mod for it too:

http://xcom.nexusmods.com/mods/73//?

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 13, 2013, 3:01:45 AM

LetoSilvermane wrote:
Pirates will spawn on uncolonized star systems after most of the galaxy has been colonized.[/URL]

I know the pirates and buyout thing, but I thought you can "jailbreak," so maybe you have seen the AIs do something dirty

.

But that is probably not the case.

I hope XCOM(which is great) can have a better multiplayer coop mode, like what Mass Effect 3 has(and my dream is that Endless Space does, too).

The multiplayer of XCOM now is too...hmm, simple, like the toys from McDonald's.

You buy the game, and a lousy multiplayer mode for free, unfortunately.

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 17, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

How does the food-to-industry conversion mess with the AI?

It simply changes all planets to food once it has it because of the multipliers you can accumulate for food make it extremely powerful.

And thats where the problem lies. Often enough when I select production value for the AI he even terraforms the planets to lava in order to max out numbers but once I research the appropriate tech he terraforms all planets to Ocean (!!!) and uses industry exploits, some of the food improvements simply get ignored (like more food on planets with a moon) in the end he lies at 60-70% of whats possible with the "correct" setting of planets and exploits (still being jungle with food exploit)

FarOceans

Newcomer

FarOceans

Newcomer

11 years ago

Sep 12, 2013, 1:00:57 AM

WHAT THE HECK!!!

I found this game horribly difficult on even the normal setting! I used to beat Master of Orion 2 on the Impossible setting. This game on Normal is harder than that.

Hey, if you want to make the game even harder on the harder difficulties for those with personalities like Handsome Jack... fine with me.

For the rest of us, I'd like you to ease up on things a bit on Normal and below.

Thanks!

Porcinet

Newcomer

Porcinet

Newcomer

11 years ago

Sep 12, 2013, 4:15:34 PM

FarOceans wrote:
WHAT THE HECK!!!

I found this game horribly difficult on even the normal setting! I used to beat Master of Orion 2 on the Impossible setting. This game on Normal is harder than that.

Hey, if you want to make the game even harder on the harder difficulties for those with personalities like Handsome Jack... fine with me.

For the rest of us, I'd like you to ease up on things a bit on Normal and below.

Thanks!

You are just not used to it yet.

It is very possible to beat an AI on Endless difficulty.

FarOceans

Newcomer

FarOceans

Newcomer

11 years ago

Sep 13, 2013, 4:58:04 AM

Porcinet wrote:
You are just not used to it yet.

It is very possible to beat an AI on Endless difficulty.

Umm... NO

Tried again on normal. I used to be able to beat the game regularly on that setting.

Got to turn 100 and had fleets of 18 ships each with a total fleet strength around 5000. No invasion capability, pure fighting/defense.

Horatio show up with slightly smaller fleet with this single fleet having a strength around 10,000.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to "just get used to that"

Seems to me this game has been ruined by over achievers who whine about "how it's just never hard enough for them" and force the devs to spoil it for everyone else.

You want it harder, fine, whatever, go have fun. I no longer enjoy playing this which is too bad because it USED to be a lot of fun to play.

Porcinet

Newcomer

Porcinet

Newcomer

11 years ago

Sep 13, 2013, 9:38:26 AM

I don't know which race you play but I have had fleets of 52k MP by turn 120 with a race with decent research power and at this point i usually fight fleets with ~20k MP.

I really wonder how you end up with such low MP fleets on turn 100.

5000/18 is ~277 MP per ship, that´s the MP of a ship you can get on turn 1.

You are missing something, maybe you do not research enough in the military tree or forget to upgrade your ships.

I'm genuinely curious.

Kataphraktoi

Newcomer

Kataphraktoi

Newcomer

11 years ago

Sep 13, 2013, 2:40:08 PM

I just finished my first real game,normal difficulty, 7 players on medium sized map, ovoid galaxy (first played 2 matches on tiny 1v1 to learn basics) and have to agree...the AI is quite weak. In these departments;

1.Combat. AI cannot build ships or fleets that can compete with the humans military, i have barely learned the combat yet my fleets are routinely winning even when under strength (in the prebattle stats) and barely taking damage. Use of repair modules, repair heroes and the nanorepair card when possible now results in my fleets never getting worn down, and plowing through incredible numbers of enemies. You would think when the human is focusing heavily on missiles or beam weapons the ai would design ships with heavy defences against that but they seem to design ships completely randomly. Also the AI sends unescorted fleets of siege ships with zero combat strength into the waiting arms of my fleets with clockwork regularity.

2.System development. Ive noticed the automatic colony manager is horrible, and the AI seems to be using the same, their systems are horribly configured when i capture them and i believe they are focusing heavily on colonizing every planet possible in a system, instead of growing one or two good ones high then colonizing the next. This results in alot of unhappiness from the bad anomalies and wasted time, my automated systems really struggled to develop compared to the ones i managed personally. This element desperately needs improvement benefiting both AI and human,helps humans for reducing micromanagement and helps AI as a strong economy is the basis for everything it does.

3. Colonization and fleet development. AI is very slow at colonizing, and i managed to obtain 63% towards an expansion victory in my game fairly early on with no warfare. Meanwhile they have enormous fleets of ships in their worlds doing...nothing. The cravers adjacent to me had a considerable amount of ships when they still had colonizable worlds nearby...they should use their fleet to secure the worlds from pirates and get colony ships in their ASAP. Even while i colonized such a vast area of the galaxy i was still able to make enough fleets to thwart the cravers attempts to attack me. Im sure the AI had enough production to make more colony ships if only they tried. And it wasnt for lack of room, horatio for one had a vast area of unclaimed systems near them, but instead of claiming them they seemed to prefer colonizing all the planets in each world they already owned

Playing Disharmony. Haven't played a earlier version, and im definitely gonna check out that Super Nova mod, looks promising.

Edit :Ive been using the automatic governor more since my last post and its been performing better, and ive been putting it in more favourable positions to succeed as well. Maybe the difference was the systems i gave it had more of an industrial base to get rolling with.

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Sep 14, 2013, 12:16:43 PM

As for the "endless difficulty" discussion I can confirm it being a problem of not being used to the game. It doesnt matter if you beat Master of Orion on Impossible setting or not. Its two different games mate. You gotta learn the ropes in ES before you can become as good as you were in MoO. And thats a good thing else why bother with new games of the same genre at all?

If your 5000 AP fleets meet 18K AP fleets that hints at your gameplay being not optimal from turn 1. The huge difference you see in your example is just the cumulation of many wrong turns which end up in your ass whooping. I dreaded Endless difficulty and stayed away from it for the longest time. Then came the point where the only achievements missing were the endless ones so I hunkered down and looked for help and tried to improve/get used to it.

Well what can I say? Its brutal but you learn small things and after a while you realize there are things you can do to even the whole thing. Now I consider endless quiet "easy" not like "hell I gonna slap that AI around like a red headed stepchild" but more like seeing openings and realize how starter systems and heroes will affect my winning chances.

While more moderate settings allow you a fighting chance in the long run regardless how you start out Endless difficulty will shrink that margin to a degree that will only give you a realistic fighting chance on certain galaxy settings and proper enemy races. Not getting an administrator hero on turn 1? Just give up...stuff like that.

The weaknesses of the AI dont disappear on higher difficulties. They even become much more exploitable. Its just really only the massive bonuses the AI receives that make it so overpowering at first.

I often rely on AI governers for my systems and am quiet happy with the results I get. The configuration you get on invaded systems dont really help here as often enough the AI uses complex changes in a single turn to accomplish the massive dust income they have to generate to accomodate massive fleets. When observing the AI on my own systems I can spot slight weaknesses but overall it does what its intended to do. Not on endless of course. The need for micro-managing is very strong as even 1 missed turn can put you at a disadvantage you cant allow (too often) to happen. Thats why large maps become a bore quickly. Micro-managing 30+ systems gets tiresome quickly.

Overall it seems to eased into things and are having fun playing the game now....which is a good thing and I m happy for ya /cheers

Stargem

Newcomer

Stargem

Newcomer

22 900g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 2, 2013, 6:33:52 AM

The AI does cheat, on any setting higher than Newbie.

ENDLESS DIFFICULTY

x 0.4 overpopulation disapproval

x 0.6 expansion disapproval

+50 happiness

-90% buyout cost

-60% upkeep

x 0.4 production cost

x 0.75 tech cost

x 0.2 healing cost

+100% damage

+65% defense

+50% food & production

+30% science & dust

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

LetoSilvermane

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 15, 2013, 7:49:28 PM

You might find the AI in the Heavy Nova mod more challenging.

/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16275-heavy-nova-mod-launched

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

6 400g2g pts

11 years ago

Jul 16, 2013, 7:48:11 PM

Was this in Vanilla or Disharmony?

Edit: If it was Vanilla, was the game started before the recent Hotfix that repaired the Ai previously broken by the last patch?

cool_guy_sly

Newcomer

cool_guy_sly

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 21, 2013, 3:08:18 AM

I find its a tad too easy as well. The Endless difficulty is usually super hard until late game when you've got everyone out tech'd, but all the other difficulties are a joke from start to finish. On endless though I find Im never ever ahead in points, Horatio always always dominates from their population and fids scores. I think the real challenge is trying to beat the game earlier or limiting yourself to certain points in the tech tree as the enemy doesnt seem to catch up tech wise, even the sophons are usally behind me and I play automatons (soley based on the fact I like their ships appearence the best but dont like custom factions as I dont have enough self restraint to keep them balanced.)

VIPNasarog

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VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

36 700g2g pts

11 years ago

Jul 21, 2013, 12:47:52 PM

Ail wrote:
Was this in Vanilla or Disharmony?

Edit: If it was Vanilla, was the game started before the recent Hotfix that repaired the Ai previously broken by the last patch?

That's a good question. I'd like to know as well.

Tikigod

Old Remnant

Tikigod

Old Remnant

22 400g2g pts

11 years ago

Jul 21, 2013, 12:52:57 PM

Certainly sounds like Vanilla to me personally, as I'm finding the AI behaviour and numbers on hard difficulty interesting enough with Disharmony enabled since the last update.

The AI certainly still makes some daft decisions, but its ability to hit you hard early and blockade several systems at once to stop you making ships is much improved.

Scrangos

Newcomer

Scrangos

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 21, 2013, 2:25:42 PM

Theres always that achievement for using a faction with like -100 trait points.

Oblivion590

Newcomer

Oblivion590

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 21, 2013, 6:30:43 PM

The AI is still easily defeated in Disharmony on Endless. Give a shot at the achievement for beating Endless with -195 or less racial picks!

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 23, 2013, 3:06:40 PM

In my opinion, I feel that's because the AI(even Endless difficulty）hardly cheats.

Without cheating, it is impossible for the AI to invade like how players do and to pose a real threat to us.

It does sometimes use new Disharmony mechanisms to capture your star systems instantly or cause some damages to them (like us, bomb improvements or kill populations), but not frequently and aggressively like us.

The AI seems like newbies who are not familiar with new Disharmony stuff.

And its strategy to build ships and organize fleets is very weak and inappropriate, like building large ships for invading, wasting high HP and industrial points on that.

If the AI takes any experienced player's strategy to build forces and invade, it will be a nightmare for players.

Simply because new Disharmony mechanisms allow any vicious opponents to ruin your empire in several turns easily...

Just cross the border, bomb, capture, do anything they want(even meaner, pillaging and razing) , your economy can decline significantly and lead to a disastrous defeat.

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 1, 2013, 9:11:25 AM

you seem to think that Endless seeting with max number of AI opponents is considered to be a hard game?

Try 1 versus 1 on small with endless settings now THATS hard to beat.

Large maps and lots of opponents actually give you more breathing space because the AI tends to going-all-out on each other often ignoring the player. Whenever I set up more AIs harder difficulties actually become easier.

Even tho the disappointing thing is due to AI bonuses on endless setting the actual challenge comes from the fact that he can raise more ships faster and with better tech then you can. If you somehow manage to break his first attack wave hes dog-food

ChapterSerf

Blue Heretic

Tiz, please, you're getting bumpkin all over my feral bikini woman fantasy. --Ringabel

ChapterSerf

Blue Heretic

19 300g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 1, 2013, 5:14:51 PM

I find that the biggest problem with the AI is that it's rather unintelligent at times. Perhaps most damning is the AI's ineptitude with system development, specifically, what exploitation they put on their planets. I've conquered 6 planet systems with a myriad of different planet types and each one has Hyper Scale Farms on it. And this is before the convert all food to industry improvement. Really? I've also likewise conquered systems loaded with Finance Commissions. Sometimes I'll encounter a system with 3D Replication Plants but it's not nearly as common as Finance Commissions or Hyper Scale Farms, and I don't think I can ever recall conquering a system loaded with Global Tech Parks. Good system planning would go a long way to making the AI harder. I've sort of come to the conclusion that, if the system isn't full on population, the AI dedicates everything to Food, if the system isn't fully developed in terms of system improvements, everything is dedicated to Industry. If both of those are satisfied, everything is dedicated to Dust.

Another example of sheer stupidity (this one has only really appeared in Disharmony, the previous example I've seen in both Vanilla and Disharmony) is sending fleets with nothing but siege modules. No guns, no defenses, no armor, filled to the brim with siege modules. And to make matters worse, they'll sometimes send these fleets at systems I'm besieging. Now, maybe their intention is to actually go and besiege one of my systems, but I can't say for for certain since I always blockade when I besiege.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 2, 2013, 4:05:39 AM

Commander wrote:
I've sort of come to the conclusion that, if the system isn't full on population, the AI dedicates everything to Food, if the system isn't fully developed in terms of system improvements, everything is dedicated to Industry. If both of those are satisfied, everything is dedicated to Dust.

It seems that the AI governs our star systems in the same way, so that's why we have to do everything ourselves even when we have a handful of star systems.

It is tiring but sometimes rewarding since Endless Space is kind of a game about managing the whole civilization, not just battles or one specific thing.

But I have a feeling that if the devs are willing to make a Mass Effect 3 multiplayer style co-op, that could solve the whole AI problem(at least, in multiplayer games).

In my opinion, the AI of Endless Space is unwilling to cheat. At least, not as obvious as many AIs in RTS or other so-called strategy games.

But if you have played Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, you will probably know that the devs of the game show no mercy to the players, and offer all kinds of challenges.

On insanity difficulty in Mass Effect 3 single player games, that could be a problem because the AI of the teammates is too weak, and cannot compete with numerous enhanced enemies (Of course, experienced players have no problems at all).

But in multiplayer, it's not a problem because the players are better than the stupid AI and work together.

And it is easy for the newbies to watch and learn, which is more efficient than the traditional forum discussions.

The devs no longer need to worry about hurting the players' fragile little hearts and causing all kinds of bad responses if they make the AI more aggressive or cheat more (the latter is not recommended).

I am not saying that the devs of Endless Space don't know what to do, and it's just my humble opinion.

(I am not the ones complaining about the devs and the AIs, so please don't misunderstand and say the MP things to me...)

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 2, 2013, 6:07:35 AM

Now, maybe their intention is to actually go and besiege one of my systems, but I can't say for for certain since I always blockade when I besiege.

considering the fact that the AI is ultra-carefull with is colony-ships and goes to great efforts to save em I dare to say the siege-fleet behaviour is an oversight because I too get bombarded with siege-fleets like theres no tommorow. Usually when a scout comes by the info gathered by the AI shows in its next few moves but he seems to "think" of his siege-fleets as really powerfull becasue he doesnt distinguish between Battle-MP and INvasion-MP.

An example I have on hand is the fact that whenever I invade a planet I have 1 escort fleet on the same planet to protect the invader. Now if I make the mistake to "click" the pile instead of selecting my battle-fleet it ll select all fleets around orbit and if I use the "attack" option the computer will use my most powerfull fleet versus the AIs most powerfull fleet. In the described scenario that means my INVASION fleet versus his invasion-killer fleet, yeah thanks.

Vaikran

Newcomer

Vaikran

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 14, 2013, 11:23:39 PM

Well i dont know about other people but i find the "Endless" difficulty AI ridiculously easy. Against 8 other factions and with only 3 systems i dominated the rest of the universe by turn 280. 230 of those turns were spent researching. Afterwards i quickly dominated the galaxy in 50 turns without losing a single ship and using only 4 fleets. We could use some serious innovation in the AI Department.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 2, 2013, 11:33:17 AM

Stargem wrote:
The AI does cheat, on any setting higher than Newbie.

I do have poor sensitivity...sorry, you are right.

Only playing Harmony on Endless difficulty makes me feel that the AIs definitely cheat, but partly because the Harmony is something we are not familiar with.

Probably because the poor management of the AI is too obvious, and it somehow compromises the effect of cheating?

That's why I propose that if there must be AIs involved, maybe Mass Effect 3 multiplayer style co-op can be the cure.

The devs can make AIs cheat like crazylol, but that won't be a problem.

From my experience, veteran players can do well with rookies and it creates a certain kind of balance.

The devs will no longer have that sort of problems: some players think the AIs are overly cunning, but the others think they are morons.

But that's only my opinion, and I am no so sure if such an idea can be accepted by the majority...

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 6:35:39 AM

Cheating in my understanding would involve being able to do stuff thats outside your reach like....."teleporting" around the galaxy from turn 1 or colonizing all planets within a system with only 1 population at hand. Lets think of more stuff that would be "cheating"

- destroying a couple of your ships BEFORE long-range phase

- access technology it hasnt researched

- recruit more heroes that it has academy slots

Lots more but I think the point is.....cheating is bending the rules in a way that ll give you an advantage over your opponents which is not the case. The AI operates under the same game rules everybody else is. It just has a larger point-pool for traits, thats the bonues and thats what makes it more difficult. In a perfect world the AI would be perfect and there would be only 1 difficulty setting. You cant just "turn" your AI up or down and programming in new code segments to enable new "thinking strategies".....thats a little hardcore for a game. So most games make the AI harder by giving it stuff for free to give it an advantage. Its behaviour is still the same (build or improvement logic, research parameters you name it) it simply has more stuff it can use now.

Its unfair....its not cheating

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 7:32:29 AM

MTB-Fritz wrote:
Its unfair....its not cheating

Totally agree.

I have something funny to share.

In Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, the enemies do have something outside the box: Instant kill.

None of the players can do this, and it is the most fearful ability the players are afraid of.

But on the other hand, the players have tons of privileged skills and weapons. If the AIs have them, that will be a disaster.

However, we can call that even because the players are outnumbered and outgunned.

In Endless Space, it is very tricky and the devs can't do in this way.

The devs follow the steps many others have walked on, like X-Com: Enemy Unknown, which has a great singer player game but as usual, an ordinary multiplayer mode.

I hate to say that Bioware tremendously cashes in on Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, but it is proven to be a great way to solve many known problems.

I am not saying that my way is the highway, but the devs do have difficulty because they chose this business model.

Nook

Newcomer

Nook

Newcomer

25 100g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 12:35:02 PM

Stargem wrote:
The AI does cheat, on any setting higher than Newbie.

Lol that's not cheating, it's what explained in the manual: "AI bonuses are adjusted to compensate the decisions only a Human can make. AI

opponents will become a real challenge here".

There's rules and you accept them or not, if you don't accept Normal difficulty rules then play Newbie.

Cheating is transgress rules and it's cheating. Let me give you a real life example. in Go game there's handicap, a player could start with more pawns on board because he is weaker. Two players playing the game and one has a handicap, there's no cheating. There's cheating if a player break the rules and place two pawns for example or move a pawn.

So again play Newbie if you can't accept the Normal or upper difficulty rules, it's rules with handicap not cheating.

EDIT: In my opinion if there's a point where AI is cheating it's its inhuman ability to support micro management. That is weird and have a AI managing this would avoid those ton of two ships fleet.

EDIT: Well first edit is probably more unfair stuff but where it's enough borderline to morph from unfair to cheating is managing the simultaneous turns, in pure theory a human could do the tricks that apply the AI, as rush out when a fleet is coming and not let the time to guard the system and trap the fleet, or continue a movement to a system right after you unguarded or leave it. In theory it's just unfair, no rules are broken, but inhuman abilities has been applied so I consider this cheating. :-)

Nook

Newcomer

Nook

Newcomer

25 100g2g pts

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 12:45:16 PM

MTB-Fritz wrote:

...

Its unfair....its not cheating

It's not unfair as soon as you choose the difficulty then accepted the handicap. But yeah no cheating either.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 4:06:50 PM

Nook wrote:
... it's what explained in the manual: "AI bonuses are adjusted to compensate the decisions only a Human can make. AI opponents will become a real challenge here".

And I think the devs can just add an Iron Man option like that in X-Com: Enemy Unknown.

It can do the trick and doesn't take any time or resources to make.

In X-com:Enemy Unknown, if you check Iron Man, the killed teammates will never be revived because the game saves immediately, and there is only one savefile.

Of course the AIs now still can't pose a real threat even on Endless difficulty and with Iron Man.

But it will work if the AIs improve.

And people who complain about the AIs can check Iron Man themselves to enjoy the feeling of a real professional Go match.

If anyone wants even harder difficulty, maybe professional Go match rules can do the job.

In a professional one, the player only has limited total time for him to think. If it is depleted, every turn must be finished in a few seconds.

The AIs don't have the luxury of time to think or the privilege to own the greatest technology in Endless Space: a time machine, to load the savegame.

And the best thing is that all of these won't take the devs too much time.

And it will perfectly satisfy(or torture) players who would like to enjoy it.

KrayZee

Newcomer

KrayZee

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 3, 2013, 6:45:36 PM

As long as the AI can't design ships that are able to hurt the player's hero fleets (or kill normal ones), then nothing will change..ever

high HP dreadnoughts with 25%hp to armor battlecard (probably even without) are invincible in singleplayer even without going full HP/defense module.

my current dreadnought design in the Beta-patch has

1000/1700/1700 attack and 800/800/2200 defence with just 36000 health. + repair module

(as you can see, I didn't put much thought into it)

I don't know if its because of my rather low deflector-defense (the deflector module is freaking useless, the passives are even worse than shields and it only deflects 10 bullets each, so its only somewhat usefull against long range kinetics) but the Pilgrims in my current game (either endless difficulty or impossible I can't remember) tend to use full kinetic ships on smaller vessels, full bombers+defence modules on dreadnoughts (called "Oracle") or full kinetic with very high balanced defenses (called "Paladin")... and well-balanced cruisers in both damage and defense

on hero-fleetbattles with 70k vs 70k MP im literally taking *zero* damage except from the odd bomber (~200 damage in afterbattle report) while dealing around 100k in 1-2 phases

so how is anyone suppossed to lose in this game (military)?

the explosion in dust income during mid/late game isn't helping either, without the use of trade I'm getting 200k each round, though obviously, nowhere to spend it on since the AI can't destroy playerdesigned ships

and since we are at it, what are the stronger and what are the weaker AI factions?

Pilgrims are probably one of the weakest, Hissho being missle ♥♥♥♥♥s as they are being slightly stronger, I believe beam users to be the strongest

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 4, 2013, 2:00:05 AM

KrayZee wrote:
As long as the AI can't design ships that are able to hurt the player's hero fleets (or kill normal ones), then nothing will change..ever

and since we are at it, what are the stronger and what are the weaker AI factions?

Pilgrims are probably one of the weakest, Hissho being missle ♥♥♥♥♥s as they are being slightly stronger, I believe beam users to be the strongest

That's true and we should tell the ones who complain to play the Harmony as the solutionlol

And that design makes the ships have a great possibility to survive. With the benefit from leve up, it's even harder to defeat the player's ships except other players'.

The ship design is not the only reason why the AIs can't defeat experienced players. There are plenty: the poor hero management, unfamiliar with new invasion mechanisms, known strategic and tatical bugs, and so on.

The devs can improve it but it takes time.

Therefore, the players who do want harder AI can help themselves, play the Harmony or any unfamiliar, try not to load, limit the time to think, get a smaller galaxy with one opponent(like others suggested) or a tiny one with 8 empires(I haven't tried it and don't know if it's harder).

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

VIPMTB-Fritz

Wannabe Survivor

11 years ago

Aug 4, 2013, 7:27:50 AM

The AIs don't have the luxury of time to think

Uh what do you call the "calculation time" then every computer needs? The lag you can experience as empires grow and matches grow older is there because your chip uses internal resources to decide what the AIs are gonna do. Take an outdated computer system and you got longer times on your hands.

We call them AIs but of course they are no AIs. I m not even sure theres something possible like it, certainly not in conputer games. What you have is a program with lots of parameters and directives. How "intelligent" such a computer controlled opponent is will be affected by its programming. Yes, the computer is not "touring" capable but it certainly doesnt stink.

Once you start to analyze game mechanic and take a closer look the game will often become easier and once fomidable opponents start to become weaker and weaker. Thats allright you know...."life" is the only game so far that humans dont outgrow like every other game. The important question is "can Endless Space provide entertainment and challenge along the way?" and I say "YES" it can.

cgboy2003

Newcomer

cgboy2003

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 4, 2013, 7:57:30 AM

MTB-Fritz wrote:
Uh what do you call the "calculation time" then every computer needs?

Of course you know what I mean. And of course I think Endless Space can.

But if someone doesn't, it won't be bad for us to suggest some ways to solve the problems.

And limiting the time to think is a great way when one can't wait for the devs to enhance the AIs.

KrayZee

Newcomer

KrayZee

Newcomer

11 years ago

Aug 4, 2013, 8:15:15 AM

I want to add that the addition of Bombers and Fighters to the game made the AI even weaker, lets face it, they are pretty much useless, they need to be at least 5 to 10 times as strong as they are right now in the beta patch.

the AI however uses them way to much, even building dreadnoughts around them with nothing but defence and bomber modules (why do they take up 2 special module slots anyway?)

thats 4-12 CP points wasted on every fleet for them (Its not rare to face 3 of that design at once)

There are plenty: the poor hero management, unfamiliar with new invasion mechanisms

I'm not sure if it was added into the recent patch but the AI does use the invasion mechanic quite often. one time I lost 3 systems in 1 round because of that.. though it was very easy to get them back, because the AI sends siege fleets without escorts