Many players believe that Kinetics needs more accuracy to be effective; i disagree. What kinetics needs is more Dakka . I mean, ship experience, Heroes and some cards improve defense against kinetics (ie block more of them), but nothing improve how many bullets are fired; this means Kinetics gets increasingly less effective as you face higher level opponents. The real solution for this is to include a buff to bullet count with ship experience levels and Heroes attack bonuses (Weapon Overlock as well as said elsewhere). This would make kinetics viable and competitive with the other 2 type of weapons.



Edit: To keep Kinetics in line with the other weapons, Kinetics leveling should follow a different route than the other weapons. If we increase bullet count while increasing damage at the same rate, Kinetics would grow at twice the rate the other weapon do against undefended target. To make it fair, they should grow half damage and half bullet count, while deflectors should grow at half the rate of other defences so Kinetics retain it's damage and penetration potential. That's more work code wise but i think it could work out that way.



Edit2: We could get around the mess completely by just adding a new parameter; Penetration. Instead of just spamming more bullets, we ust negate a number of deflection. Simple and clean.



Edit: I changed the title to comply with the rules, but the thread name didn't change. I hope some moderator can fix this before my thread get junked.

I disagree, besuse buffing accuracy buffs the amount of shots getting to target.



You don fix a pool with holes in it by simply puming in more water, you fix it by closing the holes.



And by the logic of simply applying more shots, then really what you would do is make the melee phase a phase where every one being shot at by kinetics dies becuse of the volume getting to target.

Igncom1 wrote:
I disagree, besuse buffing accuracy buffs the amount of shots getting to target.



You don fix a pool with holes in it by simply puming in more water, you fix it by closing the holes.

What you don't understand is that defense increase the number of shots blocked, so to overcome said defense you need more shots. Problem is, defense upgrades increase the number of shots blocked, but offense don't increase it at all (just damage, but that's useless if shots are blocked by deflectors). The other weapons gets the buff to overcome their defense (laser is more damage, Missiles is decreasing the odds of being shot down), i don't see why Kinetics shouldn't get it too. Notice the other weapons don't need to be more accurate to overcome their defenses...

And by the logic of simply applying more shots, then really what you would do is make the melee phase a phase where every one being shot at by kinetics dies becuse of the volume getting to target.

No, that won't happen so long as the increase scale the same rate as defense do, you just maintain statu quo (ie defense improve 30%, offense shoot 30% more bullets), meaning the same amount would get through if they actually can before any buff is applied. Right now kinetics just get shafted because higher level enemies gets increasingly impervious to it unless they forget to defend against it.

leveled enemys isn't what I was talking about.



If you fire more salvos overall by buffing the weapon module then you buff all of the phases, not just long and medium.

Igncom1 wrote:
leveled enemys isn't what I was talking about.



If you fire more salvos overall by buffing the weapon module then you buff all of the phases, not just long and medium.

Firing more salvos for kinetics has the same effect as doing more damage for lasers. A leveled up Laser Destroyer does more damage per shot, accross all range and phases, why shouldn't a Kinetic Destroyer get the same effectiveness boost as it get stronger?

To be honest this is a fair point. If its chosen that missiles gain interception avoidance, lasers get more damage which in this case means higher penetration in relation to their defense, then it does logically follow that kinetics need a higher number of projectiles considering its the (only?) way to get more penetration versus enemy deflectors.



This could be done on the expense of the damage upgrades, as such lets assume unleveled sends out 100 projectiles dealing 1 damage each. Laser boat sends out 5(?) lasers dealing 20 damage each. Now they level up, laserboat sends 5 lasers dealing 25 damage, whereas kinetic boat now sends out 125 projectiles still dealing 1 damage.



Of course this is unrealistic example to clarify what I (think?) OP means. But lets assume that is the case, then this would allow projectiles to effectively gain similiar 'penetration' when compared on defensive modules than other weapon systems.

Azver wrote:
Of course this is unrealistic example to clarify what I (think?) OP means. But lets assume that is the case, then this would allow projectiles to effectively gain similiar 'penetration' when compared on defensive modules than other weapon systems.

Yeah, that's what i meant. But i think Kinetics should follow a different rule than the other weapons, like half damage, half projectile upgrade while the deflectors only improve at half the rate of the rest of the defense; that way Kinetics grow on par with the rest. Increasing bullet count while retaining the same damage upgrade would indeed make Kinetics extremely over powered.



Edit: I just thought of a simplier solution, we could just add a penetration value. A penetration could negate one deflection, that way we don't have to mess with damage or bullet count. Much easier solution.

Im not convinced increasing count in % to that which others get damage would make them OP, to be honest.



If miss/hit rates are based on %, increase is based on %, then lets make another example:



Kinetics shoot 100 (Nice round number) projectiles. Laser (again) shoots 5 x 20 beams. Hit rate at range X is 60%, then 60% of these beams will average same dps increase as projectiles if we improve the damage by 25% or the count of projectiles by 25%. I can't see how it'd make it op even if it means more of these projectiles hit the target as long as dps gets the same increase? Except they'd be OP'ly glorious to watch if we'd get into situation where its just a constant stream of projectiles. But visuals don't account to opness I think. :P

Azver wrote:
Im not convinced increasing count in % to that which others get damage would make them OP, to be honest.

Well it's easy. Increasing damage or projectiles do the same thing in the case of Kinetics, but if we increase both at the same time, they get twice as good as the other weapons. Currently the game give the same % increase in damage to every weapons, so to get the increase in fire rate you need to curb the damage per shot to keep the same damage potential increase (ie damage done if they all hit). My initial solution was to do half and half upgrade (something i can mod just fine without change to the game code), but if the devs add a penetration value it would fix this problem without re-doing cards, experience and heroes bonuses. Less work for them that way.

Ahh right, I always assumed it would be either or, if it'd be double bonus then yeah, naturally. But since both stats automatically get the 'penetration' per se, I would assume that only the stat affecting penetration would increase.

Azver wrote:
Ahh right, I always assumed it would be either or, if it'd be double bonus then yeah, naturally. But since both stats automatically get the 'penetration' per se, I would assume that only the stat affecting penetration would increase.

But i think it would be messy if we got a huge mass of projectiles showing on screen; i'm sure the guys with lower end computer may have a huge FPS hit . 50/50 solution works better (until a penetration mechanic comes around).

Messy to have a huge mass of projectiles? Come on man, these are rail guns, it's what they were made for! But yea, mass slugs in this game doesn't look too good XD. They should just buff the damage honestly, missiles have highest accuracy and highest damage? (Lasers having highest DPS) That leaves kinetics with nothing, lowest range, moderate damage, but a high rate of fire, which makes the accuracy even worse. No benefits from kinetics other than early game before you get lasers or the titanium used in missiles.



Thread: The buff Kinetics need



The hero the UE needs beautiful

stasik28 wrote:
Messy to have a huge mass of projectiles? Come on man, these are rail guns, it's what they were made for! But yea, mass slugs in this game doesn't look too good XD. They should just buff the damage honestly, missiles have highest accuracy and highest damage? (Lasers having highest DPS) That leaves kinetics with nothing, lowest range, moderate damage, but a high rate of fire, which makes the accuracy even worse. No benefits from kinetics other than early game before you get lasers or the titanium used in missiles.



Thread: The buff Kinetics need



The hero the UE needs beautiful

I'm currently testing my suggestion in my own mod and so far Kinetics works much better the way i made them. They still do shit at long range but at medium and short range they tear other ships appart (assuming they invested little in defense / used no defensive cards). Anyway, lets hope the devs take notice of this.

Foraven wrote:
I'm currently testing my suggestion in my own mod and so far Kinetics works much better the way i made them. They still do shit at long range but at medium and short range they tear other ships appart (assuming they invested little in defense / used no defensive cards). Anyway, lets hope the devs take notice of this.

At medium and short range they tear other ships apart if they invested little in defense? Isn't that how it was without any mods? thats how it is when I play the game...



I thought this was supposed to have kinetics scale better vs defense, i.e. a level 5 ship will still do good damage vs a level 5 ship with adequate defenses. If the only test was against ships with low deflect to begin with, I'm not sure the devs should or would take notice.



I'll try to do some testing with this of my own this weekend.

Affinity wrote:
At medium and short range they tear other ships apart if they invested little in defense? Isn't that how it was without any mods? thats how it is when I play the game...

Well, in my test i haven't met any heavily armored tank ship yet, so i don't know how Kinetics would fare then. Of course, i don't want kinetics to become an OP weapon that tear ships appart even when the opponents use lots of deflectors. But so far my changes seem to have fixed them, at least they don't become useless against AI fleets that have only token defenses. Still, more testing is needed...