WARNING: INCOMING MATH



The chances of getting an admin with this draft is much higher than it is currently, simply because you get to look at 4 heroes right away instead of 3. yes, it is still possible to not get one, but very slim. Even if you get none in your initial four (unlikely), there is a pretty good chance that you will be passed one. Assuming all 5 heroes classes have equal distributions, then the chance of any random hero of being an admin is already 40%. So as it stands, you have .6^3 = 21.6% chance to NOTget an admin.



If you get to look at four, this chance goes down to .6^4 = 13%. The chance that the person next to you gets 0 or 1 admins is 47.5%. and the chance the other player gets 0, 1, or 2 is 82%.

So, the chance of you never seeing an admin in the draft is .13*.475*.82 ~= 5.1%



So as it is now, you will not get an admin about 1 in 5 games. With the draft, 1 in 20 games you won't get an admin (assuming everyone picks as many admins as they can, which probably isn't the case.)



And, the draft would be fun!



Starting with one of each class is also a decent alternative, but i think it would be very bland, since you know exactly what hero classes you will get every single time. Perhaps have it as an option you can toggle "Balance hero classes" just like you can "balance" systems.

There is one case where you'd rather not start with an admin hero.



Starting a game on a small map, and finding you're trapped on your home system, because your only link is a wormhole. You don't want an administrator then, you want a corporate hero to boost your science as much as possible so you can get the tech to escape. I have actually won a game where that happened.

Again, I feel this would be better

1) on creating your faction, you create your own hero (ie avatar)

2) subsequent heroes are more expensive and in a pool. If you don't hire them, someone else can and probably will depending on need.

3) optional, there can be a modifier based on race and alignment. Evil empires would have to pay more for good heroes, good empires might have some kind of malus for hiring evil heroes. Wars with the faction that is the same as a hero should have some kind of modifier as well.

4) Turning heroes - sway a hero based on faction/alignment, special bonus if the one trying to turn them has the same alignment/faction

I don't think the idea of a draft is good for this game, it only increases the learning curve. If there is more depth to be added it should be to combat and empire building, not heroes. Simpler solutions have been suggested like allowing every class to be represented once in the starting pool of 3 heroes, and once the admin is nerfed it should be okay.

Affinity wrote:




However, here's another idea, why not allow heroes to be traded? you can already trade whole bloody systems, so why not heroes?

I see nothing wrong with this.

i never had a problem with having a mixed hero. like an admin/pilot, you can take it for either an admin, or if you don't need another admin, as a pilot for the war effort. there are more than enough skills to spend points on regardless. ofc a pilot/admin won't be nearly as good as a pilot/adventurer, but not by large margin.



However, here's another idea, why not allow heroes to be traded? you can already trade whole bloody systems, so why not heroes?

I would suggest that heroes only comes from battle(adven, pilot, command) and constructions (admin corp), and its 25% chance of appearance. And it will only stay in academy for 3 turns. So, no one will get heroes in first 3 turns, and even you can't get a hero you want soon, lets say admin, building up more improvements or ships, you may soon get a other hero.

Affinity wrote:
WARNING: INCOMING MATH



The chances of getting an admin with this draft is much higher than it is currently, simply because you get to look at 4 heroes right away instead of 3. yes, it is still possible to not get one, but very slim. Even if you get none in your initial four (unlikely), there is a pretty good chance that you will be passed one. Assuming all 5 heroes classes have equal distributions, then the chance of any random hero of being an admin is already 40%. So as it stands, you have .6^3 = 21.6% chance to NOTget an admin.



If you get to look at four, this chance goes down to .6^4 = 13%. The chance that the person next to you gets 0 or 1 admins is 47.5%. and the chance the other player gets 0, 1, or 2 is 82%.

So, the chance of you never seeing an admin in the draft is .13*.475*.82 ~= 5.1%



So as it is now, you will not get an admin about 1 in 5 games. With the draft, 1 in 20 games you won't get an admin (assuming everyone picks as many admins as they can, which probably isn't the case.)



And, the draft would be fun!



Starting with one of each class is also a decent alternative, but i think it would be very bland, since you know exactly what hero classes you will get every single time. Perhaps have it as an option you can toggle "Balance hero classes" just like you can "balance" systems.

A little more warning before you bombard us with that much mat?!? Jk :P



Good points though.

Indeed. There is much to be learned from the card game industry about probabilities. Drafting is a fairly common card game practise involving each player in a knock-out style tournmanet openning a pack of cards, taking a card then passing the rest onto another player. This usually negates most of the luck involved in drawing cards, whilst still giving a limited amount of cards in which to use. It becomes quite a skill to choose cards for drafts. Do you take the really strong ones? Or do you take the more versatile ones to fit any situation? I would be all for this idea to be implemented as soon as admins get a nerf, since giving everyone access to one does not mean they become balanced. If anything, guaranteed admins only make Horatio stronger

The beginning of Endless Space involves quite a bit of luck, and whether or not one is lucky can greatly affect the outcome of the game. Much of this comes from the random allocation of heroes - there is almost no opening that would not benefit greatly from having an administrative hero at the outset. When you do not get an administrator you end up being substantially behind those who do. Additionally, the trait Legendary Heroes can be virtually useless when you do not start out with an administrative, as the other hero types do not provide much early game benefit even when leveled.



What I would suggest is for there to be a quick drafting phase at the start of each game, in which everyone gets to select the heroes they will start out with with. The way this draft would work is as follows:



1. Everyone sees 4 random heroes in a timed window like the pre-combat screen. Each player picks one of the 4 available to them.

2. The remaining heroes are rotated to a different player (so everyone now sees 3 heroes)

3. From these 3, everyone picks a hero.

4. The remaining heroes are rotated to a different player (so everyone now sees 2 heroes)*

5. From these 2, everyone picks a hero.

6. The remaining hero for each player is discarded.



*It is intended that the same group of heroes never returns to a player that has already seen them.



This way, everyone ends up with 3 heroes that they have chosen. While there is still some element of luck, there is additional strategy and it is less likely that you will be left with no administrative hero (and if you do, you at least get heroes that you picked to benefit you later on in the game).

I completely agree with the need to fix the "players with admins have huge advantage" problem in multiplayer, but I'm not sure your draft really solves the issue. The first round of heroes are either going to have an admin in which case the player immediately takes him, or have no admin, in which case you're just as dead as in the current system (as the chances of getting more than one admin in a draw are rather slim).



The best solutions seem to be "give everyone one of each class" (still risks someone getting 2 admins as their 6th class, and the Horatio still have a massive advantage as they clone the admin as many times as they need and boost several systems at once), "give everyone exactly the same heroes" (guarantees the game will at least be balanced; either everyone gets an admin or no-one does), or "fix the other heroes so they're just as good" (see the hero rebalancing thread for a million suggestions of how that could be achieved). Relying on the random number generator for a solution, even if you tweak the odds slightly, is not going to permanently solve it.

@ stasik



Yes you can adapt sure but that doesn't make it fair. And you can't just "go for science" instead. corporate is the alternative, but it doesn't give anywhere near the advantage as an admin. admins let you build more things, have more people, and quickly develop systems that would otherwise be worthless.



Waiting for the next hero and a chance at an admin is just silly. By that time half the game is over and you are already way behind in development. it's not supposed to be "get admin and win" but it kind of is, since if you get an admin and i don't then i start the game much lower on the totem pole than you do. Since admin is such a pivotal component, having a way to ensure that you can get one would be a much needed balance change. or nerf it, or get rid of it altogether.

I don't know... for a while I didn't understand the bonuses of admins so I mainly went for military heroes (victory through total domination!) but I feel that the rotation might be unbalanced... 4 cards, lets say in all the sets only 2-3 admins are in there. The first person to get the admin chooses them, the rest are faced with weaker heroes. I honestly find it balanced, it's not supposed to be a "get admin and win". This is a game of chance and not getting admin to start produces a challenge. If you're Horatio, you can clone the hero and not even care, but if you only get military heroes, you'll wait for an admin... Let's say you're playing horatio and you want to dominate early game, you're not going to go admin, you'll get a commander and get planets by capturing. You're saying that admins are the strongest hero, everyone getting one isn't exactly balanced. You're not all supposed to be lucky enough for one. You have to adapt. Sigh, I'm not sure how to explain what I'm trying to get at, games like master of orion 2 had random heroes spawning at random times, you weren't as lucky as in this. This is 4X, empire management, not hope for an admin to carry your empire on their shoulders for you. Go for science instead of industry, try to buy every research and/or improvement instead. Adapt.

If there are no ties by race and they are essentially mercenaries. I think there ought to be one pool of heroes and players bid for their services. That would be a game within a game.



Personally, I would like to see each race start the game with a hero of their race as a leader (your avatar) you decide what traits and points in labor, wit, offense ans defense they have.



After that, open season on a pool of heroes. If you don't hire them, someone else can , though with the limit to total number still in effect.

I totally agree that having a poor selection of heros to begin is a major hinderance (ie no administrator).



Its not too hard: There are 3 heros at the beginning of the game, each with 2 archetypes - there are only 5 hero archetypes. Its not brain surgery to have the computer assign you heros that cover each of the 5 archetype at the start of the game.

What I'm trying to say is the game would start with a draft, and I try to describe the particular kind of draft I had in mind here.



The idea is that instead of receiving 3 random heroes in your academy at the start of the game, you get to select the 3 heroes from a larger hero pool. To ensure that you can't just get 3 administrative heroes, this is done in stages. I'll try to describe it again, but using a card game as a metaphor.



Imagine that each hero in the game is a card. All the heroes in the game (I believe there are about 80), form a deck of cards. At the start of a game the computer will distribute a hand of 4 cards (4 heroes) to each player. Each player chooses a card, and puts it in front of them, representing a hero they want to be in their academy hiring area once the game begins. The remaining 3 cards in their hand are passed to the person sitting to their right. From this new hand of three cards, each player chooses a hero and puts it in front of them. Then, the remaining 2 cards in their hand are passed to the player's right (again). The players choose from the 2 cards in their hand the final hero they want, and the last hero is discarded (put back on the deck of cards).



The important concept here is that you need to decide which hero is most important to you as well as which hero is potentially most important to your opponent. This is because the heroes you don't pick will be given to your opponent to choose from.



The current situation is not balanced in any way, shape, or form. Administrator is ALWAYS the best hero to hire first because there is no point in having a military based hero right off the bat. The cost of the second hero is completely achievable within the time frame of a rush, which will only come faster because of the administrator. The +15 production trait is INCREDIBLY strong. Going with a military hero first gives you no benefit since you have no military and no contact with your opponents for the first couple of turns (your scout doesn't count as military).



I am not saying that heroes are the end all - be all of the game, quite the contrary. However, they are a very important aspect and unlike starting system/constellation imbalance they can not be changed by colluding with other players to conquer the luckier players.

I'm completely confused on this rotation, and heroes aren't everything. If you have more military focused champs, try going for a more domination route. And it was made this way to be balanced... but I can't explain until I understand what you're trying to say, what are you saying with those 6 points, they don't make sense to me