Introduction:



Dear Devs



I was thinking along time if post this thread or not.

Infact i was scared by a possible shitstorm on me or something like that and people just saying *oh look another cry thread*

I know this from other games very well thousands of buff these...nerf that Threads.



But i cant be silent anymore and i have to stand up and say what is going on.

I have now a decent MP experience with almost 700 Hours MP only Games.



There were many of them...the once OP Sowers before they got Nerfed to Death...

The Hissho 20% FIDS OP

The ridic Combination of Merchants, Diplomats, and Blockade runners for a a little bunch of Race Trait Points.

The stack of militarists with Masters of Illusion/Destruction



...some of u might remember and are thinking oh yeah bad times,but now everything is better.



After Action Report:

WELL

as bad this times of Overpowerdness were...at least there was more variation in Multiplayer as it is now just out of the fact cause u were able to choose between different overpowered options.



And what is the situation now...

Pls do not try to tell me everything else...iam watching and observating the Multiplayer now for a very long time and why should i lie to you?

What i have seen was that not rarely 3 out of 4 People are playing a custom race with the Sophon race affinity when i get lucky i only got 50% Sophons.



There are only a few Players who can be counted on ten fingers which are playing other races and are on the Top and be a might factor. But i know many of this guys cause i saw them playing since the Beta.



So it is no secret that obviously an avarage player only can be competitive with and 0815 Sophon Race affinity keeping their fast colonised systems avoiding war (in many 6 man games in which i didnt play a warmonger...there will be no war at all -.-) and waiting for the Desync Error (ehh Science Victory *cough*).



SO!?

Is this the realy intended...that One race is so obviously dominating(easier to play with) the MP and only a handfull of skilled people are even trying the other races.

Where is the spirit of Multiplayer?

Many different people with different playstyles...many intresting combinations and possibilties ...but no...one after one got the same boring Build...(Sophon,Science 3/3...and so on you know that anyway...)

Is it realy intended that the majority of Races are considered as useless?



(Man...if i play MP...and i see for example somone with an UE Affinity or Pilgrims and so on i dont even care about this players anymore...cause i know they will be a easy prey anyways or no threat to me....but yeah most of the times i only see sophons anyway.)



To bring variety back into Multiplayer there is no Choice only Duty. The Duty of a Rebalance this Affinity

The Devs showed us that they can do it. They done it very well with the Race Trait Points in the 3rd Addon.(only the Tolerant Trait is still very*meh*)





Examples/Buff/Nerf Suggestion:



There are only two options to fix this buffing and nerfing.



a possible suggestion: to make the other Races more competitive...there are so many threads in which people were begging for a slightly buff for the UE and they are absolutely right.

Same thing with Pilgrims.

Sowers and Amoeba deserves also 65 Trait Points like the other Races since the Blackthumb *exploit* isent possible anymore and the Marchants,Blockade runners combo is dam expensive.





Additionaly cause iam thinking thats wouldnt be enough to bring balance and also a easier way is to nerf the Sophons affinity.



An UE Empire Player will always never before fare late game always can set his tax rate in 100%.

But for a Sophon...no Problem at all to set it to 0% at the beginning of early-midgame/midgame.

And a low tax rate gives u even more benefits in terms of Food,Industrie and again Science!



Why should they so much better, thats just ridicoulus.

(In fact the UE affinity is completely useless at all without Optimistics and Naiv Trait (35 Race Trait Points...)





This Bonus is to easy to get and to high.



Remove the -50% cost on Help (Seeds!) Modules...

Cause this Bonus for its own is verypowerfull and its combination with the Science Bonus make the whole thing imbalanced.



Its a matter of game mechanics.

In Endless Space Expansion is all with low penalties and low restictions compared to every other famous 4X Game which is sad cause it restricts the number of strategies

and needs maybe a fix too but for now it is another reason for the OP of the Sophon Race Affinity.



If u wanna read more about the imbalance and importance about expansion speed in SP and MP pls consider this Thread:



https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/9988-endless-expansionism-a-balance-problem



It explains it very well and for me it just make my faith stronger that there has something to be done!





Also in this Thread some likely Points of my view were stated here by some people (for example Waylanders states about Sophons)

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11403-faction-traits-balancing





Somehting similar also here again it is stated that Sophons got an major adavantage

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/34-faq/thread/14709-power-colonizing





PS:



-I know u might play Sophon by your own and i dont want to consider you as a noob no! In fact you are just playing the logical choice.

-Maybe some of u think the Sophon is just the popularest gamestyle...well i can tell you...its just the easiest...how can somone find *his playstyle* when he sees that the majority of players with high points are playing sophons.



-Pls think about and ask yourself if u have played often in the MP down your heart u know that iam right.

If u are a loving Sophon player and wanna argue against my point of view pls think on the Balance of Game first and not the possible nerf u could maybe get.



-Maybe some of u of course didnt play sophons in MP but honestly you are a minority.

and besides,

come on guys u are on the Endless Space forum reading such a thread...dont tell me your not exppierenced...u just didnt play Sophons cause its no challenge for u.







I post this from and objectiv view of that what iam watching since months in the Multiplayer

and iam very sad to see in a game with thousands of combination possibiltys in aspects of Custom Races such an monotony.



Thank you for you attention.

Greetz Sovereign

PPS: English isent my mother tongue so pls be tolerant.

Well, this is a wall of text, but (although I don't play MP) I must tell you: ES has one of the best communities - it's unlikey to create a "shitstorm"



Now I'll leave this thread to the MP gamers

Hmm, this is too huge a text for me to fully read, but I believe I read the most parts... my custom faction uses the sophon affinity only because it corresponds to the lore of my race, but I do guess that their affinity should be made less appealing?

Well, I haven't logged 700 hours of game time, but yeah there are a lot of sophons. And with good reason, you get to keep your tax rate low, have happy little monkeys, and expand out the wazzo. And they have 2 affinities!!! wtf why do they get two?? either of them could be good enough to take the race by itself, that's stupid.



So I will certainly agree sophons are overplayed and way too easy to do too much with.



However, don't discount other races. Played well, cravers, hissho, even UE and pilgrims, can make sophons very sad. Sowers, amoeba and automatons I have never seen used well, so they could definitely use some love.

I feel like there are 3 tiers of factions....

T1: Sophons, cravers

T2: Hissho, UE, Pilgrims, Horatio, Sowers

T3: amoeba, automatons

I think any changes that even out these tiers into a single level would benefit MP variety.



I'm trying not to repeat what you have already said, so I will end by saying to also consider faction techs. I think it would be possible to even out the races by altering the faction tech. For example Pilgrims and especially cravers have very strong faction techs, sophons is pretty good too with that extra +20% sci. Take away the 20% sci tech, and take away the +4CP for cravers(which comes waaaaay too early) and these factions would instantly be more in line with the others.



Amoeba's only faction tech comes way too late in the game. Sowers tech tree is decent, but isn't enough to make it on par with anything. Automatons have no special tech until 4000 science, and can't actually terraform to terran without quadrinix, and their affinity is hardly relevant until they get the extra 15% interest.

u just didnt play Sophons cause its no challange for u.

haha, yup, pretty much



EDIT: alright, with careful planning and utilization sowers are alright. After playing a few extended games with them, their tech can be very competitive if you use it right. My opinion of them has gone up. Still don't think automatons or amoeba affinities are competitive in MP.

I haven't spent much time with Horatio...but they seem very hit or miss based on getting an admin at the start.

The science bonus for Sophons is good and appropriate, the issue however is that with custom races able to acquire rapid expansion traits the massive industry bonus that sophons get for colonizing puts them well over the top.



Sophons Colony ships cost 88 industry before other traits. Non-Sophons colony ships cost 150. Any race that wants to rapidly expand can do it better as Sophons all other things being equal, their Terran homeworld even supports this rapid expansion with the highest base food production.



This is contrary to the story line of other races(Craver, Horatio) and I believe designer intent for the way Sophons should be played.

Kareal wrote:


Non-Sophons colony ships cost 150. Any race that wants to rapidly expand can do it better as Sophons all other things being equal, their Terran homeworld even supports this rapid expansion with the highest base food production.

.

didnt u wanted to say CANT do it better as Sophons?

i cant imagine how other races can do it better.

Automatons are fairly powerful due to the fact they can push industry fairly hard however they are hard to play because of the micromanagement coming with stacked industry. They do play to my style as well; unfortunately i can see how they can get a little hurt in wars... im still trying to get stronger with the race and play it better; but if you are pushing all the right buttons for Automatons they seem to perform very well, but they do play fairly differently from other races just because of the stacked industry alone. In response to Sophons... yes, they need a little nerf, I think our dedicated players can come up with a viable number change, their affinity is a bit too good at the moment.

Affinity wrote:
Well, I haven't logged 700 hours of game time, but yeah there are a lot of sophons. And with good reason, you get to keep your tax rate low, have happy little monkeys, and expand out the wazzo. And they have 2 affinities!!! wtf why do they get two?? either of them could be good enough to take the race by itself, that's stupid.



So I will certainly agree sophons are overplayed and way too easy to do too much with.



However, don't discount other races. Played well, cravers, hissho, even UE and pilgrims, can make sophons very sad. Sowers, amoeba and automatons I have never seen used well, so they could definitely use some love.

I feel like there are 3 tiers of factions....

T1: Sophons, cravers

T2: Hissho, UE, Pilgrims, Horatio

T3: Sowers, amoeba, automatons

I think any changes that even out these tiers into a single level would benefit MP variety.



I'm trying not to repeat what you have already said, so I will end by saying to also consider faction techs. I think it would be possible to even out the races by altering the faction tech. For example Pilgrims and especially cravers have very strong faction techs, sophons is pretty good too with that extra +20% sci. Take away the 20% sci tech, and take away the +4CP for cravers(which comes waaaaay too early) and these factions would instantly be more in line with the others.



Amoeba's only faction tech comes way too late in the game. Sowers tech tree is decent, but isn't enough to make it on par with anything. Automatons have no special tech until 4000 science, and can't actually terraform to terran without quadrinix, and their affinity is hardly relevant until they get the extra 15% interest.



haha, yup, pretty much

I think for now it is simpler to try and balance the factions based on their traits and affinities, which is already plenty complex! Most faction tech comes later and personally I haven't seen it take as big of a role in a game as the affinities/traits (which affect you from the very start to the very end).

Have you ever seen a 23 CP craver fleet loaded with missles arrive at your door while you only have 13CP? Or hissho faction military tech utilized well? Pilgrims get missionary factories, which is the main reason I consider them competitive at all. Sophons extra 20% science, on top of their other advantages is definately worth noting in long game. Or for UE, that earlier improved faction armor can make for some really beefy dreadnaughts.



The way i see it, faction tech is just as important as the affinity.



@DigitalHawk

I would love to be proved wrong with the automatons, but i really don't see them as anywhere near as good as other factions. Even if you micromanage it well, its still a pretty small benefit until you get the +15% interest tech.

Automatons are late game powerhouses, far above everyone else except Sophons. Max stacked you're looking at close to +80% production(and its multiplicative) plus once they do unlock Terran Terraforming(and associated resource) along with their other supporting racial techs(Low temp hydration) they easily have the highest production output in the game.



The problem is Sophons get to that point sooner AND have massive early game benefits as well.

I am a singleplayer man so:



I think the Sophons, Horatio, Hissho, Craver, Automaton (With super micromanagement) and Amoeba are well done, and are more or less the most competitive ones.



Especially the amoeba, my personal Nemesis.



The UE industry bonus could use a serious buff, possibly leading into a late game powerhouse with a bonus of around 100-120% boost to a players industry at 100% tax, with a few buffs at the lower levels to give players more of an incentive to go for higher tax over higher approval bonuses.



The Sowers just seem to choke and die without a players guidance, and even when played well they don't seem to have any advantages before the late game. I am not sure what to suggest.



The pilgrims suffer from a lot of problems revolving around players really not playing into their affinity's advantage, super colonisers, with a admin hero the pilgrims can pump out colony ships with 1-2 population and the first industry improvement just as fast as other races can pump out normal colonizers, giving them a great early game boost when managed well, but even with their supposed great special improvements (Never really looked into it) they really suffer without a admin hero and no advantage to the mid and late game, even the extremely early warp tech is kinda sidelined.

I play mostly single player so I can not say much about MP.



When (or if) the Sophon's affinity is fix or rebalanced, what will be the next OP affinity, trait, or strategy? The same affinities that already see seldom use will still be overshadowed. Instead of trying to pull affinities down (and their respective factions) for doing their intended goal well, perhaps pulling up the lacking affinities would allow players to execute different strategies.



The - 50% Support Modules Cost on Empire does need to be addressed. The bonus is fine but its effect on the seed module is too potent. Perhaps excluding its effect from the seed module would solve the entire issue. The Sophons would no longer be the most effective at colonizing and endless expansion starting out, but they would still retain their early benefit that they need before their science kicks in.



I would like to see some other affinities (and subsequent unique technologies) become more viable in both MP and single player.



The UE have a good affinity but their unique tech don't play into it. High-Consumption Society (Advanced Biologics) doesn't directly play toward the UE's goal of a higher tax rate, and directly competes with optimized logistics that does allow for the UE to get the higher tax rate. Picking between the two is a no contest



The Sower have been mentioned numerous times... they have their own issues discussed in length else where.



The Pilgrim's affinity has a much too large opportunity cost to use effectively at the start of the game. Moving improvements is one thing, but relocating the majority a system's population to another incurs too much loss to fids during transect to use in the beginning (when it is intended to be used). Instead has become a niche and used to deny resources (structures and population) to a warmonger.



I love the idea of moving improvements from one system to another allowing the population to remain. I feel this would make the pilgrams much more viable and play sort of like Rome in Civ5



I feel that the most effective affinities have an early unique technology (under 1k science) which backs up their affinity. Thus allowing them an edge developmentally over the competition.

Amoeba: None

Automation: None

Cravers: Accelerated Yields: lengthen the time before negatives from locusts takes effect.

Hissho: LMI Systems: Greater benefit from Bushido

Horatio: Futuristic Game Theory: Additional cap in academy for clones (+% to influence if using standard faction)

Pilgrims: Consensus Systems+Maximized Exploitation: Drastically Increase hero leveling speed. Atmospheric Filtration: Gives warp-drive and colonization on gas giants.

Sophons: Self-Organizing Data: 20% on system science

Sowers: Planetary Landscaping: Only effective with moons unlike the Craver's unique in the same spot. Its worth is largely dependent on the system.

UE: None



-Tainted

I agree with your post to 100%



And yes excluding the seed module from the -50% Support Modules could (maybe) solve the issue at least this should done by the Devs if they fear to do an Overnerf.



I also would like to see to upgrade the other Factions (especially Sowers and Pilgrims) but yeah i think somewhere we have to start at least and the devs shows us that they are working on it.