That sounds cool, especially the one general weapon part, that sounds like the Hissho(only kinetics) and would be really nice to implement.

At the least it would break up the usual

god complex

as Stalker0 put it. Which leads me to the (off topic) idea that their could be leaders that give bonuses to the empire and after x amount of time would change.

T41 wrote:
I think that's going to be rebalanced in the new expansion. It also gives me the idea that the more you research in one tree, the lower the costs of the rest of the techs in the tree.

Well, both ideas, increasing and lowering the cost higher in the tree have their benefits - but some random "found" techs could be fun, yeah!

I think that's going to be rebalanced in the new expansion. It also gives me the idea that the more you research in one tree, the lower the costs of the rest of the techs in the tree.

The more techs you research, the higher the cost.

this is interesting. Will encourage players to play in one of the 4 trees

But it could also make the problem with beelineing to the +40 building even worse.

Still I think it's a good idea.

BlueTemplar wrote:
The more techs you research, the higher the cost.

this is interesting. Will encourage players to play in one of the 4 trees

The more techs you research, the higher the cost.

Franksta88 wrote:
love the idea but don't see how it would be implemented.



maybe split each tech into tiers and you click research science tech tier 1 and it randomly discovers one of the first two science techs. Then you can research tier 2 science tech and to research tier 3 science tech you need to have researched 2 tier 2 techs. To research tier 4 you need 3 tier 3 techs and so on. And the same works for the other 3 tech trees.



Sorry if i have confused you i think i confused myself a little.

No, it makes sense (kinda like adders tiers, right).

BlueTemplar wrote:




The best way to do this is probably the one used in Heroes of Might and Magic 5 where the buildings tree starts hidden, but you can reveal it if you desire so by clicking a button.



3.) Now, I have another proposal related to the discussed here randomization of the tech tree : dynamic instead of fixed tech costs.

This is actually used in Alpha Centauri - instead of tech cost always having the same value, it depends on the number of techs you've already researched (anecdotally, IIRC it also makes the cost higher for the leading factions and lower for the stragglers).

In the current state of things, you can't really afford to beeline to a specific tech several tiers higher because the tiers get exponentially more expensive, so the tech progress is quite similar in all games you play. Hopefully changing this would make for a greater variety of strategies and various factions teching quite differently...

(Could this be modded?)

So the more techs you research, the higher the cost? Or the longer turns pass the lower the research cost?



And don't ask me about modding, the biggest accomplishment in modding was adding base FIDS to moons and changing colors.

Indeed, they have hidden the tech tree in SotS1/2, which has resulted in some complaints :

http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32868

http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=45323



The best way to do this is probably the one used in Heroes of Might and Magic 5 where the buildings tree starts hidden, but you can reveal it if you desire so by clicking a button.



3.) Now, I have another proposal related to the discussed here randomization of the tech tree : dynamic instead of fixed tech costs.

This is actually used in Alpha Centauri - instead of tech cost always having the same value, it depends on the number of techs you've already researched (anecdotally, IIRC it also makes the cost higher for the leading factions and lower for the stragglers).

In the current state of things, you can't really afford to beeline to a specific tech several tiers higher because the tiers get exponentially more expensive, so the tech progress is quite similar in all games you play. Hopefully changing this would make for a greater variety of strategies and various factions teching quite differently...

(Could this be modded?)

love the idea but don't see how it could be implemented.



maybe split each tech into tiers and you click research science tech tier 1 and it randomly discovers one of the first two science techs. Then you can research tier 2 science tech and to research tier 3 science tech you need to have researched 2 tier 2 techs. To research tier 4 you need 3 tier 3 techs and so on. And the same works for the other 3 tech trees.



Sorry if i have confused you i think i confused myself a little.

Yeah, I know change won't be immediate, but I hope this will be implemented some time in the future (although maybe not with this game).

Harder to program AI if tech changes. But not impossible. And random.techs would keep the game fresh.

I have no issues with this as an option, but I like the standard tree myself. Call it a god complex, but I like planning out my techs

Hello everyone

Has anyone else noticed how, in most strategy games, all the research dynamics are very... dull. You just see a bunch of technology's to research, whether it is in a tree or a list, you clearly see the farthest tech out there. It is like a cave man saying, "In a 1000 years I will take a long tube of wood and put two pieces of glass at the end to observe far away things" or "In 2000 years I am going to use a Saturn V rocket to reach that big glowy thing in the sky that will be called the moon." Doesn't that sound wrong? Also, I think you should be able to randomly discover technologies because a couple enterperneurers can build and invent the airplane (short but simple reasoning). This is the best game because this is the one game where the makers actively listen to the fans suggestions.

So this is what I suggest

1) that you can only see 1-2 techs above what you have researched



2) you have random discoveries of techs higher than what you have researched



Sorry if this sounds crazy but I had to ask.

Sword of the Stars had this in both versions.



In SotS 1 you had a random chance per game to unlock certain tech trees. To put this into Endless Space terms, instead of automatically getting access to Missilse, Guns, and Lasers, your race would auto get one, and on a game by game basis you have a chance of unlocking the others, so Humans might ALWAYS have guns but would only SOMETIMES have access to Missile or Laser trees.



In SotS 2 all of the 'non-core' technology had instead a prototype or theoretical research component. You researched the 'theory' behind that technology branch and again RNG determined if it unlocked that portion of the tree or not.

Ah, ok that makes sense.

T41 wrote:
That is good, but why randomize all the techs to where they jump beteween trees? Why not just randomize the order the techs can be researched?

If you randomize within the same tech tree according to my "zones" you'll only get ~3/5 different possibilities per tree (depending on the which tree) which I think is to few. So, you think: "well, increase the zones then!" But this will generate an unbalanced tech tree where some player will gain advantage (by luck) over others/the AI

That is good, but why randomize all the techs to where they jump beteween trees? Why not just randomize the order the techs can be researched?

Perhaps something like this would be possible, without generating a extremely unbalanced situation.



The 8 starting techs remain the same (green circle) but afterwards techs are randomized between circles.



Between the green and red circle all techs are randomized, so they can switch from expansion to military tree.

Same between blue and red.



Between blue en white tech are randomized inside the tech tree. (so no jumping from different trees)

Same for white to yellow.



After yellow techs hold the locations the have now, no randomization.



And you only have the 2-techs further view as suggested.

T41 wrote:


Research right now in strategy games seems hardly 'research'. You already know and see what the technology is, you just have to implement it. That is what (slightly) annoys me. I just wanted to know if anybody else felt the same way.

I feel the same way as well, so hopefully games will eventually do away with research trees and use a system similar to Warring Factions instead.

Thanks for all you guys for your input and patience with me . I just do not have the level of experience that you guys have of strategy games or coding (the only thing I can mod in ES is the cost, fids, and operations). But at least I am understood and you guys make this the best community on the Internet.



(Poor option 2, forever alone.)

T41 wrote:


Yes, I agree, it would cause balancing issues, but perhaps all factions get the tech after X amount of turns. Because secrets don't stay secret for long, people/aliens would start trying to copy that and eventually figure that out.

I hope that makes sense (and I don't sound rude I am not trying to).

Don't worry you don't. Yea that is realistic but will cause some problems. Let's say your game has sophons, cravers and automatons in a 3 way war. They are all researching different trees trying to stay alive and develop themselves. As soon as they research that tech the timer will start up. If you're researching in a completely different direction and suddenly get a bunch of techs in other trees, the research tree will quickly become empty even at the 60th turn.

Honestly your first point IS achievable, but it's too late for this game. An example is Sword of the Stars that had a randomized tech tree every game and you can't see what you'll get until you have the proper related techs. So it's a possible feature, but it'll take too long and too much coding to change what we have now.

finaryman wrote:
2) is already true. In one game I got tech I wasn't even researching. Could have been an event, I don't remember that accurately.

The only bad thing about exploration events is that they go away when there are no more completely undiscovered systems (but that is another topic).

If you could only see 2 techs above that would not make that much difference if the tech trees aren't randomly generated, which is not possible with the current type of tech tree. And changing the tree now is way to late. This could be a viable option for a next game, but with a different type of research tree that this one.

Research right now in strategy games seems hardly 'research'. You already know and see what the technology is, you just have to implement it. That is what (slightly) annoys me. I just wanted to know if anybody else felt the same way.

for the second idea, it already happens with exploration awards or random events. but if you make it just happen without a reason it will be unfair to other player and cause serious balancing problems.

Yes, I agree, it would cause balancing issues, but perhaps all factions get the tech after X amount of turns. Because secrets don't stay secret for long, people/aliens would start trying to copy that and eventually figure that out.

I hope that makes sense (and I don't sound rude I am not trying to).

T41 wrote:
1) that you can only see 1-2 techs above what you have researched



2) you have random discoveries of techs higher than what you have researched

This logic makes complete sense but is hard to implement in a game.

If you could only see 2 techs above that would not make that much difference if the tech trees aren't randomly generated, which is not possible with the current type of tech tree. And changing the tree now is way to late. This could be a viable option for a next game, but with a different type of research tree that this one.



for the second idea, it already happens with exploration awards or random events. but if you make it just happen without a reason it will be unfair to other player and cause serious balancing problems.



Basically its this; the ideas are good and refreshing, but not implementable in the game.

2) is already true. In one game I got tech I wasn't even researching. Could have been an event, I don't remember that accurately.