Heya,



I haven't played too much into the game, but what I already realized, especially after playing GalCiv2 for a while, that the feeling to explore space is actually quite...unexciting in Endless Space.



Reasons behind that:

-You are limited to fixed paths between systems

-What you discover is a whole system, and the worth of it is the sum of the different planets inside which

-Someone will colonize sooner or later anyways



So when you remember your exploration in GalCiv2 or in MOO2 it were the moments in which you discovered a Gaia Planet which were really awesome. But that feeling simply doesn't come up that well here, because the planet itself does not have the same value as in these games. The Value of a planet is more of a plot in Civilization with a good ressource. But even if you got a hill with iron, you won't be exited if it's surrounded by ice.



So what cannot be done is:

-Free exploration

-Change the colonization system



As these things would require completely different game concepts.



But I think what could be done is to "emulate" a system, by increasing the number of options. In detail:

-Allow even more systems in the universe (so that there is even more to explore)

-Add an option for even fewer and smaller planets per system



So that way, it will be more awesome if you discover a great planet, because the planet might define the system more than before. And while you are not flying through empty space but systems, they will act as empty space (well almost) as they mostly have small asteroid fields in them.



So I guess it doesn't really take a big change. Just a few more options with Number of planets and such. But the impact on gameplay could be quite big.

This would not change the game as it is now, but would add additional ways to experience it.

Hi Kordor, this will probably get moved to Design Discussions.



You are right though, more effort in variety is needed and the scarcity of those "Gaia" strategically precious worlds, despite how many settings there, would help liven things up in the Explore department.



The anomolies are a part measure but rather poor way of breaking out the variety, there should be a ton of very imaginative worlds available to encounter.



You can catch yourself getting used to them too easily to make summarily clynical analysis on the spot of whats early, mid and late game colonial possibilities. Making it something alot less Explore than it could be where curve balls should be thrown.



Our Solar System has plenty to offer as inspiration for example. The number of moons on offer too, their type and how many orbit a particular planet is also another example of variety to look at including.



However its all down to Dev time and what is practical/possible no doubt there are a limited amount of skins created with no time to create more linked into any chance of expanding the classifications of what they have as the Tech is tied so intimitely with them too.



Either this gets resolved in modding or ends up as expansion material for the future, either or I think this is the more likely scenario.

Kordor, as another GalCiv2 vet, I agree that the current design of ES is a bit thin in the eXploration part of the 4X idea. A big part of that, of course, is the lack of free travel across the galaxy. No more running across derelict spacecraft or resource points for bonuses in the space between star systems, or running across natural wonders like exploring in a Civ game.



But I've come to terms with that, as being just a more realistic sci-fi design. There really isn't much going on in the space between real star systems. It's just a few molecules and specks of dust in an otherwise boring and empty volume of space. It's the star systems and gas/dust clouds of protostar systems where all the action is likely to be. A system of strings that made it easier for straight-line travel would be naturally preferable to slogging across all that vast emptiness between stars, and would funnel travel the way it's shown in ES.



I suppose the game might be modded to include a few interesting finds along the star lanes as you're out exploring, but it's still likely to be a very star system-focused design.



Regarding the lack of thrill for discovering Gaia Planets, I think that's down to how ridiculously easy it is (or was) to colonize every planet in a system. It's not that we don't find enough Gaias, it's that they don't mean anything when you can colonize so easily. As we've been discussing on another thread (somewhere... I think they moved it), there is a new game mechanic in the Beta that imposes a heavier economic penalty on planets with negative modifiers for happiness.



That's a step in the right direction, I think. It means planets without those penalties are suddenly much more attractive, and this could help restore the thrill in exploration and discovering the premium star systems vs. the dud systems.

I completely agree, I have voiced this concern in other threads as well. To me the main problem is lack of planet diversity. And on top of that the diversities having a larger impact on the game. It is too easy to get research more planet types, and general improvements that totally nullifies the difference between tiny and large planets.

I agree. There should at least be valuable shipwrecks between planets!



But, maybe to increase the finding of 'Gaia' planets' excitement, make the good planets rarer? Seems to me like most planets should be hard to colonize anyway, and it should be rare to find a planet suitable for life.

I have made this suggestion:

/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11747-suggestion-reverse-the-movement-mechanics

I agree that diversity is always a good thing, and adds a lot to the feeling of exploration, but I strongly disagree with the idea of free travel.



Not only is space (as mentioned) a vast & mostly empty place, but I also prefer the actual borders and strategical choke points created by the node system over the crazy zerg that was GalCiv2 (as much as I liked it otherwise) or the tiresome whack a mole that was Sword of the Stars.



As for diversity, I would very much like to see nebulae and pulsars introduced, that create travel & sensor restrictions, and can't be colonised

They could act as neutral zones, hideouts, battlefields, you name it, and would add some more flavor to the tactical aspect of the game.

I am amazed that in this entire thread no one mentions Moon exploration.



I mean it isn't super exciting but it does do some of what you ask for and can give amazing benefits.



That said I think what they could do there maybe is to have each system potentially have a bonus or malus to whoever first sends ships there to explore it (like the anomalies of GalCiv 2) so you could get good stuff from exploration still.



At the moment I only explore until I find the stuff I need to find in my games then I focus on other things, if you got potential bonuses for being first to explore though I might focus more on it.

I agree with the OP that the eXploration aspect of Endless Space is by far the weakest of the 4X's, which seems like a shame because it is a part of the genre I really enjoy.



I had a look around and couldn't find an explanation for why the navigation is limited to direct paths between stars, I am guessing this has been decided upon and will not be changing, which is fair enough but I am curious about the justification. With everything being on a 2D plane and limited to 'roads' between systems it feels more like you are playing a strategy game of conquering cities on a map but skinned to look like it's in space. The strategic potential of outflanking opponents, surprise attacking etc... is lost as well. Basically you lose a lot which seems like a shame, and there must be a good reason...

Skurkanas wrote:


As for diversity, I would very much like to see nebulae and pulsars introduced, that create travel & sensor restrictions, and can't be colonised

They could act as neutral zones, hideouts, battlefields, you name it, and would add some more flavor to the tactical aspect of the game.

Yeah, this is what I would love to see also. Nebulaes, asteroid fields, neutron stars, abandoned Endless space stations etc. etc. All with possible unique bonuses and maluses. For example, certain nebulae would force fleets and ships to halt their movement for couple of turns. Asteroid fields could contain rare minerals, ancient space ships and stations you could salvage for techs.



Also, you could possibly build deep space stations to these neutral systems. Military, trade, diplomacy and science stations with some unique improvements specific to them.



This is somewhat similar to "empty" systems of SoaSE. I think it would add more variety to galaxy map, and slow the pace a little as not every single system would help your empire.

Just my two units of dust.

NATIK wrote:
I am amazed that in this entire thread no one mentions Moon exploration.



I mean it isn't super exciting but it does do some of what you ask for and can give amazing benefits.



That said I think what they could do there maybe is to have each system potentially have a bonus or malus to whoever first sends ships there to explore it (like the anomalies of GalCiv 2) so you could get good stuff from exploration still.



At the moment I only explore until I find the stuff I need to find in my games then I focus on other things, if you got potential bonuses for being first to explore though I might focus more on it.

Moon exploration usually ends up being 30 empty moons and 1 temple with +10 defense on system for me.

Moved to the design proposals since the thread is going in that direction.

Thanks for all the responses and it's great to see that I am not the only one thinking like that.



@Skurkanas: Free Travel might be a nice option, but as I wrote it's not an option anymore. I am pretty sure that this would be impossible to change in that state, completely independent on whether it is actually good or not. So it's really not an option.



@Zenicetus: I completely agree that this is the right step. To colonize alien planets being the very first technologies you can discover also feels weird and unrewarding. In this regards I much more liked what GalCiv2 did. You really had to make a big investment if you wanted to colonize alien planets. And be fast with that in boarder regions so that other races don't take them first.



However not everything can be copied" from GalCiv2 (and of course nobody wants that, because otherwise be could just play galciv2), the biggest difference between the free travel system is that in GalCiv2 your Planets are your "Cities" while in Endless Space it's the Systems which really count as "Cities".



And of course I would like to see even more suggestions about how exploration can be improved. The ones I mentioned in the beginning were just the ones which seem to be obvious. Because it's basically just changing some numbers and adding options without intervening with any game-mechanics at all (without considering possible balancing issues)

Hm, sounds good.



Although i'm a big fan of the ES approach to space (as mentioned before, the action is where the stars and planets are) i would not mind some more "wonder" in the galaxy.



How about some kind of anomalies between stars that are gradually made visible through research and could not be explored before warp drive.

These could contain random things like dust caches, one time research boosts or bizarre creatures that give XP when defeated (and maybe some factions could mind control and enlist them in their fleets^^?).



But that sounds more like expansion or a DLC material to me.

I like a lot of the ideas here.

Putting lane travel deeper into the tech tree than warp sounds like something a mod could do in the end. All the mechanics are there after all. So, maybe we see it over a mod some day.



As for more exploration.... Anomalies between systems sound like a great thing. I like anomalies altogether, they spice up the universe a lot.

I proposed it in another thread, but it seems fitting here.

Adding system anomalies would mix things up some more. I think about systems being able to have an anomaly that effects all planets at once. Yet again, with good ones and bad ones and possible terraforming options deep in the tech tree.



You can put a lot of ideas in there, like finding a system with three stars or whatever. It's up to imagination to find interesting ones.