They could be sentient machines, or even if they are not their happiness could be based on their slightly religious mission to prepare planets for the Endless's return (eg, expansion disapproval - expanding too quickly so planets not prepared to quality, or overpopulation disapproval - staying too long in one space, or tax disapproval - taking too much dust away slows down their work, so they get "unhappy")

I post this in another thread.



The Sower movement penalty is only a problem in the early game. Once you research the first +fleet speed technologies they begin to normalize.



I would recommend if they do additional speed penalties on the Sowers' that they think about giving a racial + 5-10 happiness to offset their ability to colonize any planet. Possibly a Racial Technology that adds additional happiness. It's doesn't help to be able to colonize a Gas Giant with -20 happiness if you can't offset the instant unhappy state of your population. Even though you get any planet early you still have to wait to research the supporting technologies to gain real benefits other than an Asset or Special Resource. (-25% growth/production and Unhappy state, so I reduce taxes and get less money and less production...until I research the planet type and a +happiness technology...then I can go back to normal)



As it is now I colonize pretty much the same way I do with other races. I still chose the nice planets first for growth and production. I still search systems far and wide for those choice planets. I may get lucky and get 2-3 Heroes with Administrator and then I can talent out some Happiness...but I've had a couple games with no Administrators.



[+HappinessTraitorTechnology]

This would fit in their history. They are programmed to make the galaxy ready for the Endless's return. Why would they be unhappy at working on a Desert planet? I can see a Lava planet, etc. being a bit annoying and making them a little unhappy but second and third tier planets (up to -10 happiness) should be standard operations for the Sowers. If you don't want to give a global + happiness you could reduce the happiness penalties for the planets via a racial trait. That way they wouldn't get a bonus happiness on top tier planets, the ones without negative modifiers.



EDIT: You could add a variable to the Racial Technology(orange) of Each Colonization type that gives + happiness in addition to removing the penalty. +5 happiness for Arid/Tundra, +10 for the rest.



Overall I like the idea of being a slow spreading race densely populating each system rather than spreading out as fast as possible but as it is now they are limited by the same things that limit the other races.

Renamed the thread title.

Why are people so certain that machines would be emotionless? That doesn't make much sense to me. Different metrics, yes. Completely emotionless? How can they have a Calling and sapience if they have no way to measure 'good' or 'bad'? Even if they were just nigh-mindlessly grinding towards the Calling, there'd still be a sense that Progress is happy, while Slow Struggles are unhappy. Emotions are situational heuristics that can be efficient solutions to complex environmental problems. 'Alien emotion' and 'emotionless' aren't the same. It's harder to think up alien emotional structures... but the effort is more rewarding, too, and leads to richer lore.



If efficiency were truly all that made them happy, FIDS structures would make them happy. Given that they have Happiness-focused structures instead, it seems obvious that they're more complicated than that. I don't understand why infinite supermarkets make Sowers happy. Maybe this means the infinite supermarkets need to be reflavored for the Sowers. Maybe it means I need to reflavor my interpretation of the Sowers. It could be both.



Consider also the possibility that two factions in a map can both be Sowers. That right there should set off the 'these things are capable of diverse opinions' alarm. All Sower factions believe in the Calling, but obviously they have some kind of severe disagreements preventing interfactional consensus. At best, they can agree that the other faction is 'close enough', and so the two Sower factions become allied.

FinalStrigon wrote:
Hah, awesome. And here I thought I was being original...Your Sowers and better than mine, I concede.

Thanks.

Yours were good too.

closer76 wrote:
It's not that I can't see the machines having emotions, I just think emotionless machines (with intelligence) are far more intriguing than one's with emotions. Why is Spock so interesting? Because he is this cold, calculating, emotionless person, and that strikes us as very odd, and very unhumanlike. That's what I want from the Sowers: cold, emotionless, tasked with a duty, doing the duty almost mindlessly. They kill other races simply because they need to terraform their planets. This is what makes them so fascinating to me. So grant it, we don't have the lore yet, and that is a good point, but to me, emotionless, task-oriented machines are far more fascinating. Other races kill because they want power, wealth, conquest...The Sowers conquer because you're in their way.

And you can still have that, even with a "happiness" mechanic. You just have to interpret the meaning of it differently.

It's not that I can't see the machines having emotions, I just think emotionless machines (with intelligence) are far more intriguing than one's with emotions. Why is Spock so interesting? Because he is this cold, calculating, emotionless person, and that strikes us as very odd, and very unhumanlike. That's what I want from the Sowers: cold, emotionless, tasked with a duty, doing the duty almost mindlessly. They kill other races simply because they need to terraform their planets. This is what makes them so fascinating to me. So grant it, we don't have the lore yet, and that is a good point, but to me, emotionless, task-oriented machines are far more fascinating. Other races kill because they want power, wealth, conquest...The Sowers conquer because you're in their way.

Draco18s wrote:
To quote myself from some other thread that I have no idea which one it was, as I dug this up from another posting of it:

Hah, awesome. And here I thought I was being original...Your Sowers and better than mine, I concede.

FinalStrigon wrote:
Well, I thought happiness made sense. They are AI, so they have intelligence, and probably enough to go:



Sower A: "You know what, we have this Calling and all, but I hate being on this planet getting poured on by acid rain!"

Sower B: "I know, right? Still, it's better than the teams that just got melted by lava the next planet over."



Or some such thing.

To quote myself from some other thread that I have no idea which one it was, as I dug this up from another posting of it:

Draco18s wrote:
machines can measure happiness. Afterall, if the terrain is a b*tch to stay functioning in, you'd complain to your higher ups too, even if, technically, you'd survive anyway.



Sower #12937201: "the lava pits are really quite annoying. Fall in one and you spend an hour trying to extricate yourself. Not to mention the cost of replacing melted rubber-seals."

sower #38402849: "oh i know! the acid rain doesn't help much either. I've had to replace my leg joints three times this month already!"

sower #8293739-b: "you think that's tough, try living where they pave the streets with ice-10. I had to go get this super-low melting point lubricant, or i'd just freeze right up! Gets really lonely and boring with only your thoughts to accompany you while you wait for the spring thaw, such that it is."

Goontrooper wrote:
Honestly, the lore isn't developed enough to really justify this one way or another. We don't know what 'kind' of AI the Sowers really are. Are they emotionless? Are they all independent sentients, or is there one sentient intelligence with lots of lesser intelligences as workers? Do they take interest in anything beyond the requirements of the Calling?



You can apply this logic to other areas too. How does trade work? Do the Sowers trade with each other and engage in other economic activity? Why? They would have to have a degree of individuality and desires, otherwise why would they have anything other than a command based economy, where they simply build what they need to build. So this obviously calls the standard Dust mechanics into question.



Unless we have answers to these questions in the lore, we can't really know. So I would like to see more Lore! I like what we have so far, but it could use some fleshing out.



If the Sowers do have any kind of emotions or individuality, happiness could be an issue. For example, some of them might disagree with the manner in which the Calling is being carried out. Maybe they get upset at being stuck on an underdeveloped planet that is far from ready to turn over to the Endless. As the planet becomes closer to the vision of the Calling, the population becomes more content as their ambition is achieved.



On the other hand, if the Sowers are emotionless and/or lack individual sentience, then yeah, happiness makes no sense as a limiting mechanic. If that is the case, they should either get something like what you suggest or simply have an ability that locks their happiness at 'Content' so they don't get any penalties or bonuses, and remove their ability to build happiness structures.

You have a very good point. What I posed was just how I've imagined things with my own interpretation of the limited lore. I'm all for more lore. Which I'm sure is in the work. I looked on Endless Space's progress page, and they are working on intros for each faction. Chances are we'll get more lore in those.

The dynamic for happiness makes no sense with them. They're machines. What does it even mean that they are 'unhappy'? Why would it matter to them if they are on a lava planet or a terran planet? Therefore, I have two ideas to solve this:



Simple solution: Simply rename the happiness mechanic to an efficiency mechanic. Here, the tax slider bar would be renamed "Production Effienciency". This means if you put the bar to the far left, you are 'spending money' on effieciency (ie happiness) while if you put it to the far right you are putting the Dust into your coffers instead, sacrificing efficiency. This changes nothing, but helps them feel more like they should.



More involved solution: Basically as above, but adjust the efficiency on planets. My suggestions would be to make them basically a flat amount, like -10 (even for terran), while maybe Ocean and Gas giants would be -15. This would give the effect that, since they are machines, it doesn't really matter to them what planet they are on, so both terran and lava have the same penalty. You could fix this by having some buildings, such as the Supermarket one, be renamed to be 'Efficiency Matrix', or something like that. I feel this is almost purely cosmetic, but would add alot to the feel of the Sowers.



Thoughts?

Honestly, the lore isn't developed enough to really justify this one way or another. We don't know what 'kind' of AI the Sowers really are. Are they emotionless? Are they all independent sentients, or is there one sentient intelligence with lots of lesser intelligences as workers? Do they take interest in anything beyond the requirements of the Calling?



You can apply this logic to other areas too. How does trade work? Do the Sowers trade with each other and engage in other economic activity? Why? They would have to have a degree of individuality and desires, otherwise why would they have anything other than a command based economy, where they simply build what they need to build. So this obviously calls the standard Dust mechanics into question.



Unless we have answers to these questions in the lore, we can't really know. So I would like to see more Lore! I like what we have so far, but it could use some fleshing out.



If the Sowers do have any kind of emotions or individuality, happiness could be an issue. For example, some of them might disagree with the manner in which the Calling is being carried out. Maybe they get upset at being stuck on an underdeveloped planet that is far from ready to turn over to the Endless. As the planet becomes closer to the vision of the Calling, the population becomes more content as their ambition is achieved.



On the other hand, if the Sowers are emotionless and/or lack individual sentience, then yeah, happiness makes no sense as a limiting mechanic. If that is the case, they should either get something like what you suggest or simply have an ability that locks their happiness at 'Content' so they don't get any penalties or bonuses, and remove their ability to build happiness structures.

Well, I thought happiness made sense. They are AI, so they have intelligence, and probably enough to go:



Sower A: "You know what, we have this Calling and all, but I hate being on this planet getting poured on by acid rain!"

Sower B: "I know, right? Still, it's better than the teams that just got melted by lava the next planet over."



Or some such thing.

+1 seems like a nice touch, that could be easily implemented.

Just my thougts ! I totaly agree with this !

Good idea, not much hassle for the devs, cause it would merely be a renaming job.



But personally i don't think the happiness system (or rather efficiency then) would need to be changed mechanically for the Sowers.

I'd just imagine that more hostile climate would make their tasks more laborous and ressource demanding, which would come pretty close to approval for other races (Efficient work for Sowers = Easy life for organic species).

On top of that, if the main drive behind the Sowers is terraforming planets, a nice diverse Ocean, Terran or Jungle should make them "glad" in an emotionless kind of way: "Nothing to do here, we can move on".

So the happiness bonus on them could stay.

Agreed, +1. Make it happen, Amplitude! ^_^

I totally agree! It would be a more immersive experience when playing Sowers and more in keeping with the ES lore. Well, I'll see you all later - I have to run to the Efficiency Matrix and pickup some milk.

+1 on that suggestion.