Dear Amplitude,



I’m not sure if anyone will read this, I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t. But… Fuggit. I’ll write it anyway.



In the last few years there has been a reemergence of Emergent Game Play (EGP) all across the gaming industry through triple AAA, open world games to nostalgic indie titles. I’m a big fan of EGP. I’m sure you can imagine all the reasons why people love it, but for me it’s the stories that exist at the margins of the interface I like to fill in with ma big brain.



Some games like the Sims and Civ never lost track of EGP (not necessarily my favorite games), but a lot of game developers are rediscovering, rejuvenating and fundamentally re-imagining emergent game play. The rampaging of 4X strategy games across Steam is proof of this. Your Endless Space and Legend are a particular highlight of this phenomenon for me.



Since I actually want someone to read this, I mustn’t descend too deeply into the why’s and wherefore’s of EGP and what’s so compelling about it. I will simply gesture towards some ideas and hope you can imagine what I mean.



Ok. Why am I writing?



Though Endless Space is perhaps my favorite 4X strategy game ever, I want to point out some things in Endless Legend that I find fascinating. Endless Legend is blurring the lines between old school RPGs and Strategy games. And I think this is a very interesting.



In some ways none of it is really that novel. It’s been happening forever. But in some ways, I find it ground breaking. My very dense analysis is this, Endless Legend uses “heroes” ala Warcraft, Heroes, Age of Wonders to stand in as avatars for yourself, while keeping the strategy map as your “motivation”. Though the Intro of Endless Legend told me the planet is self aware and the rise of warlike peeps on the planet is going to… I can’t even remember, because I made up my own story and motivations while I played. I tell myself stories about why I’m exploring over here, or building this thingy there, or why I need to build a dude to go stab that dude in the face.



I know it’s obvious but I'll repeat myself. In 4X Strategy the map is the motivation. In RPG’s we’re doing many of the same things as 4X Games. We’re exploring, opening regions, fighting beasties, but ostensibly the story I’m being fed, is the motivation. The story is usually something about Evil Dude in Castle Terror who is collecting puppies for Puppysoup. He’s kidnapped some hot girl forcing her to learn the pleasures of Puppysoup. And you, dear friend, must free the puppies and hot girl. And, well, especially hot girl.



Having listened to and read interviews with Amplitude, also having fiddled with the game, I know you guys are wrestling with and lots of RPG elements. But, I’m talking about something more than just quests popping up now and then, which is old hat in strategy games at this point. It’s in Civ 5, and seems like it will be the driving narrative in Civ Outerspaceville.



No. What has me really excited is Endless Legend sometimes captures the feeling that your hero isn’t just some Uber-Unit in an endless stream of Ordinary Units ala World of Wonders. Somehow you’ve made the inverse feel true. It feels like you’ve got an avatar for yourself and you’ve got some bad asses that travel with you while you’re questing. In essence, resources fuel your cities. Cities feed your dynasty. Your dynasty provides bad ass companions to accompany your hero. So, when you enhance your city, to enhance your hero. This city engine directly fuels your abilities as an Adventurer.



Now I realize, that’s a pretty liberal interpretation, and that’s not really what Endless Legend is about. But I was able to have that experience for a little while. For me, that is the gold standard of emergent game play. That’s where the rubber hits the road, and the tools of emergent 4X game play can become personal stories about a hero rather than a society.



To put a finer point on it, in Civ 1,2,3,4 and 5 and Endless Space and any good 4X Game you tell yourself this story about who your people are, how your people adopt technology and transform themselves and the universe around them, and then stab everyone in the face and win. In Endless Legend there is a moment before you start making carbon copies of your heroes (at which point they just become Uber Units) that makes Endless Legend really feel like a new kind of adventure game. Not like a new 4X Strategy Game.



This is a very exciting sandbox experience. You keep the map as a motivation, but capture your personal connection to your Hero Self (which never lasts more than a turn of Civ). It’s almost like a procedural RPG, which sounds horrible. I wish I didn’t say that because that would suck. So I’m sorry I said that. But, yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.



Ok. Let’s bring this letter to its crescendo. Can you make a game where I play a Chihuahua with a machine gun and I hunt down man-splainers for their ball scalps? Just joshing. Well, not really. For about a decade or two I’ve been dreaming about another game from my distant past. Darklands.



Darklands was for me the greatest game ever made (as great as any game that is two decades old and is also unplayable can be). It is the one piece of old school nostalgia that I’ve carried around with me as a reference for great gaming for all these years. I have assumed it was just lost to the mists of time, though I continue to think about it. No matter if I’m playing a AAA 3D open world titles such as Far Cry, Skyrim and Watch Dogs or whether I’m playing in nostalgic open world 4X sandboxes or this new wave of (very nostalgic) RPGs like Divinity.



In this age of crowd funding, steam access, procedural games with tight art budgets I’ve begun to wonder. Could someone make/remake/re-imagine Darklands.



Now, the obvious question is what am I smoking, and where can YOU get some. The complete ridiculousness of some deranged stranger writing Amplitude about a 20 year old Microprose game is on its face, completely insane. And I agree. Which is why I assume this letter is going to be burned in effigy amongst a circle of programmers giggling about how crazy the internet has become. I’m good with that, I concur.



But I can’t shake the feeling that this collision of Strategy & RPG is right in your wheel house after seeing Endless Legend. So for that reason, I’m going to pretend someone read this far into my insane letter. And is actually interested in what I’m ranting about. Why? Because it makes me feel good to pretend.



What is Darklands?



If you’ve played it, it’s hard to say exactly what it is. If you haven’t let me tell you what it means to me and how I’ve used it as I’ve designed and contemplated game design over the years.



Darklands is Historical Map of Germany in about the 1300’s. It’s a richly researched and deeply detailed historical setting evoking the art, architecture and richness of realistic medieval life with very few art assets. You create a party of 4 characters (oh god, this is starting to sound bad) which has a very interesting character generation system. You basically choose character’s past occupations in 5 year chunks. Such as Scribe or Soldier for 5 years. Each 5 year choice ages your character and opens up skills you can allocate points to, such as Illuminating Text or stabbing stuff in the face. You can choose 5 more years as many of times as you like. You can make him 75 years old if you so desire, though he will be very skilled, he may have a flagging heart and a giant goiter named Frank.



The problem with Darklands, I think, is it wishes that it was Balder’s Gate. But, in fact, it occupies a fascinating hybrid place somewhere between open world sandbox and Party RPG (Neverwinter Nights). It certainly doesn’t feel like the typical party RPG, though it has some of those elements. It’s not about having a thief, magic dude, fighter guy and charismatic party leader. You explore the world from the world, map (a map of Germany), like you would a strategy game, not through the stone corridors of an RPG. For me it’s a big world you adventure through. You make your own stories in, then “something” happens and then you win. Along the way are many fascinating cultural, magical and otherwise dramatic encounters you can stumble across and in most cases murder. Then you load it up and make some more characters and start over.



Its party based, but it’s also not a Tactical Squad game such as, X Com, Shadow Run or the upcoming Wasteland. To be honest, Tactical ¾ squad combat is pretty tired at this point. Darklands feels more like a strategy game. You’re bopping along this cool Map of Medieval Europe and occasionally drop into small combat maps ala Age of Wonders. Strangely, I often associate Darklands with Fall Out 1 and 2, which is odd, because Fallout is the one and only “Tactical Squad” game I’ve ever played with 1 character.



Mustn’t digress into emergent game play or squad combat… Punching self in my Frank.



I guess it’s time to circle back around to Endless Legend. It captures some of that feeling. Not all the time. And not perfectly, but there are moments when I feel like I’m playing me, conquering a map, with a couple of buddies to round out the whoop ass I’m dishing out.



I bet you’re asking yourself, “How can I use these gems, absolute diamonds, being dropping at my feet? Clearly we have a genius on our hands, but what’s Amplitude to do with this insight bazooka pointed at us?”



Well, I’m not totally sure, except to say if any of you know the game Darklands its worth some thought. If you don’t, it’s worth acquainting yourself with. And I think there are a LOT of incremental steps between the emergent game play of strategy games and the RPG genre that NO one is considering. And you guys, whether you know it or not, are rubbing your naughty bits all over it.



I could probably write 30 pages on the subject but will quit while it’s just my letter being burned in effigy. Let me just say, I think there is a rich untapped single player, emergent, strategy-RPG hybrid out there that no one is thinking about.



All the best.



Great work with Endless Space and Legends

THORIN







PS: I can’t not write it. I tried not to, but I seem compelled to type, and alienate any good will the Google machine might have for me.



Ok. Darklands is not a strategy game. How on earth do these things really work together? Outside of this vague feeling and my nostalgic memories of glue huffing + video games = FUN! That I have from the early 90s. It’s a big jump between the two. How do you bridge the gap?



Well change all the rules of course.



Strategy games are all about the edges of the map that you control. And the game is expanding them outwards. Darklands allows you to run all over the map as a hero and visit interesting, scary, exotic locales, and while you’re there, stab people in the face.



I’m imagining a game that has both depth and breadth. Maybe the mechanic for expanding your sphere of influence is not settlers pooping out new cities. Instead maybe your hero is liberating land (in Darkland parlance) from draconian robber barons, thus gaining the loyalty in that region. Maybe a city sprouts up once its liberated or once you’ve gained enough influence over a region. Maybe you have robber Barons in your own region who are NOT totally under your control, and hamper how well you can operate your own duchy, region, kingdom whatever. Maybe they are even barbarian like, ala Civ. Maybe you have to kill them to properly collect taxes or have trade routes. Maybe some of these Robber Barons are really tough, and perhaps you can’t even consider cleaning up your own region fully until late in the game, when you've acquired a truly bad ass band of buddies to help you stab people in the face.



What I’m describing is something where the map is broad, and your kingdom stretches out your seat of power, but the highest level content can only be conquered by bearing down on the map, rather than spreading out. Maybe you must free your own “resources” or your neighbors “Resources”. And you cannot unify the entire world under your banner until you’ve cleared the goblins from gold mines, made the waterways safe from myrmidons, helped the Dwarven kingdom and gotten them to occupy your iron mines.



Or maybe like Skyrim you’ve got different level zones. (Not literally levels but some measure of your power) For conversations sake, maybe level 1-15 zones are near roads and civilizations. 15-30 zones are the brutal backwaters of the hinterlands. And level 30-45 zones are Robber Barons right next to your castle, and they have the best end game resources needed to be truly triumphant.



I know this is all fantasy genre stuff but it could apply to historical or space in the same way.



I also know this leaves all the hard questions unanswered. Are other kingdoms competing with you? Or are you just using a kingdom to compete against a static (yet adversarial) adventure map? If they are competing, how much and how are they competing? Are they fielding endless units like 4X Sims? Are they doing the same thing you are and bearing down on their own resources? Are there elements of straight conquest between kingdoms? How RPG or how Strategy should the balance be?



I’m not sure of all the answers but these questions, I think, have interesting implications that I never see in games, which is why I hope someone considers them. Because I’d love to see these mechanics used in new and innovative ways. I’ll leave that to you to think it over.



I will say, these questions are the reason Darklands, has haunted my imagination for 20 years. Maybe there is a ghost in there that can haunt your imagination as well.



Ok, Good Bye for Realz

T

I love this thread. You sir have won the internet, I'm torn between moving this to the EL section or leaving it in OT.



There is one thing I am certain of, I'm getting Darklands A.S.A.P.

Thank you sir. I wasn't sure what the GIF meant to you, but it perfectly reflected my own sense of horror posting this thread.

[QUOTEI’mnotsureifanyonewillreadthis,I’mprettysurethatIwouldn’t./QUOTE]



Well, dear Sir, we are reading. Thank you for this.

Actually, I don't know know if this is really "Off Topic" Or not. It seems like EL is into late beta testing so this high concept stuff maybe useless. But it may not be completely off topic either. As I implied I don't use forums. So not sure of the rules.

Totally read this

Didn't know about Darklands, I will have a closer look at it!

It occurred to me I should tell people how to find this game, but realized I'd need to warn everyone, The game is 20 YEARS OLD!!! WATCHOUT!!! It may be great, but if you don't recognize the company Microprose, this game is probably not for you!



I figured I'd have to direct people to Abandonmedia or some other game graveyard, and need to explain DosBOX so people could run it. But I'm surprised to learn, its on GoG dot com. And getting great reviews by modern players... Which seems absolutely bonkers to me. But there you have it. Everything old is new again. If you wait 20 years. Or if you huff lots of glue. Who knows, maybe chewing Skol while smoking Menthals and drinking mountain dew will be back soon.



http://www.gog.com/game/darklands

skamaks wrote:


Didn't know about Darklands, I will have a closer look at it!

NOOOOOO faith in dev team lost! You need to know all the old Microprose classics! jk



But on the topic of darklands, Firaxis remade UFO defender so I still hold out hope that one day they will remake DL.



Anyways, I too read the entire thing, and honestly this needs to be in the EL forum. It captures everything I feel about what immersion in EL should be. You did a terrific job writing this thread.



While I don't think EL should be a 50/50 hybrid between RPG and 4X, enough RPG in EL would send immersion to a whole new level. Like the OP said, I want to feel like I know my armies personally. I want to feel like every city has character and could recognize it's streets. I want to feel inseparably connected to my people. It would be beyond awesome in my opinion.



I agree with DotBeta. You won the internet.

Thank you for the kind words. It’s really nice that people are at least giving the ideas a once over.



Shamaks Wrote:

While I don't think EL should be a 50/50 hybrid between RPG and 4X, enough RPG in EL would send immersion to a whole new level.



To be honest, I’m not really trying to change what Endless Legend is. I love 4X strategy, and Endless Legend is defiantly trying to make its own mark on the Genre. I love it. My letter is more aimed at the Amplitude, because of Endless Legend.



The technical term for the Age we live in is Gamer Nirvana. Game makers can feed a studio while targeting 100k to a Million people, without the boom and bust cycle of AAA games. With that, the target audience is by definition hardcore gamers. Presumably you and me.



We also live in The PC Age. Game genres abandoned in the 90’s, because they didn't work on Consoles, are being reincarnated. Developers are picking up the mantle of fallen heroes and marching these great PC games into the future.



But there is a LOT of game nostalgia on Steam that is defiantly not the future of games. I myself have a hard time playing some games that are just reliving the glory years. Steam is the wild west. To really make a title shine, it needs new ideas. And Darklands has a lot to offer anyone who seriously thinks about these sorts of games, Ideas that were never repeated after Darklands.



For these reasons I’m not begging anyone to remake Darklands. I’m asking that they give it some thought. Because there are a LOT of things that make that game amazing, that have just been left on the side of the road. I believe it’s because it occupies this space between RPG and Strategy that no one even understands let alone thinks about it. Perhaps it’s too hard to market. Is it an RPG? Strategy? We don’t know! BUY A COPY!!!



But seeing Endless Legend made me think, the developers might tackle some of these ideas, some day from the strategy side. Maybe someone else will tackle them from the RPG side. I do know if Steam developers don’t innovate past all the Kickstarter Nostalgia games, Gamer Nirvana is going to start feeling like its 1999. And the party will be over.

Interesting post. If we are buying old IP's, Bard's Tale was an excellent game, as was Star Control (but I think that Stardock owns that one now).