Allow units to retreat after battle start

Romani0

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Romani0

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6 400g2g pts

2 years ago

Jan 20, 2023, 2:01:32 PM

The game doesn't have the concept of Tactical Retreat or even normal "Run for your lives!" concept (was not much needed with how the game was being played so far). but after the latest updates to the game and specifically to reinforcements and stealth systems, there are now more late reinforcements into battles and more surprise stealth armies appear out of nowhere.

So, I think we need to allow units to retreat during battle.

This could be optional for those who don't want it if an option was added to the game setup menu to toggle it.

Which units can retreat:
Any unit that belongs to an army that was normally eligible for a retreat before the battle started (not already retreating or being ambushed, etc...).

How I imagine it would be working:

A unit of player (A) trying to retreat would run (manually controlled) to outside the battle borders using it's available movement points (so high speed units would retreat easier). When the unit successfully passes the battle borders, it will be put back to it's original army that is currently engaged in the war and give the unit a battle status (X) that prevents it from re-entering the battle and which will be removed when the battle is finished.

If player A wins the battle, the unit acts as a normal victor (it stays with it's army in their tiles and keep it's movement points if it should and so on).

If player A loses the battle, we keep the current behavior, all the losing armies run away and get the "Retreating" status.

If the battle ends with a draw, which I think is only possible if the last two units of opposite sides kill each other in one action, In that case any army (basically it's remaining alive units) who had retreated early would retreat as they do now with the "Retreating" status.

Possible Exploits that may need testing to prove (I will add more if I think of any):
EX1. Units with attack and move (specially the Hun's EU and other's who are ranged) may use this to do damage and retreat preventing the other side from attacking them, but I imagine they would still lose the war and thus lose more WS even if they kill 1 or 2 units and they would retreat far away preventing them from attacking or reinforcing again for a while.. but in manpower they may still be considered winners as they lose no units.

Updated 8 days ago.

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Nice to have

The NICE TO HAVE status is given by the dev team to ideas they would like to have in the game.

DEV benblond

status updated 2 years ago

Hey there!

Just to let you know that this idea is under investigation. We would like to add such a feature for the near future, but as you've said in the thread, it rises a lot of questions and balancing issues. Nevertheless we are trying to come up with a nice solution both for naval ad land battles. So we might deliver some part of such a feature in the next update (no promises here), but more likely after if we come out with something suitable

Thanks a lot for the suggestions and the interesting discussion, it definitly helps us targeting your needs

Have a very nice day

Ben

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Doc_98

Wannabe Kind

Best regards, Doc

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Doc_98

Wannabe Kind

17 100g2g pts

2 years ago

Jan 25, 2023, 6:53:57 PM

I am a bit conflicted with this proposal.

1. It makes horses more viable to run down enemies

2. Would an enemy unit need to be at least x amount of tiles from any enemy unit?

3. Can the attacking force also retreat?

4. Your EX1. I think there would be a lot more.

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Romani0

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Romani0

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6 400g2g pts

2 years ago

Jan 25, 2023, 7:46:09 PM

Doc_98 wrote:
I am a bit conflicted with this proposal.
1. It makes horses more viable to run down enemies
2. Would an enemy unit need to be at least x amount of tiles from any enemy unit?
3. Can the attacking force also retreat?
4. Your EX1. I think there would be a lot more.

1. Yes. rebalances may be needed. and since horses are already less useful in sieges, this could show more of their value in open terrain battles in a more realistic way.

2. No, My assumption is that the unit would need to use movement points to run outside the battle borders, just being away as you ask shouldn't be enough and would be a problem since the enemy could have hidden units nearby and you wouldn't really know when you are away enough.

3. Yes, any army who was eligible to retreat before the battle start would be allowed to retreat mid-battle.

4. Probably yes. But it is actually realistic, ranged cavalry are usually superior for that "hit and run" tactic. This is only considered an exploit because retreating mechanic sends armies far away you wouldn't be able to catch up and attack them while they are retreating especially for cavalry armies (the retreating distance may need to be rebalanced). but if you could catch a normal army after retreating, it would still give you the upper hand in the rest of the situation (You would be the attacker so you take the first move in each battle round, you would still be able to retreat if you want and since they are already retreating, they won't be able to run from you again). Even If you choose not to attack them, they would still be losing a battle for their retreat and they would still be retreating so they won't be useful to the enemy for a while. Currently, only combat strength matters in most situations, this change will give movement points more importance in the game to be able to counter combat strength.

I am only showing the problem and offering the idea, It will have to be tested and rebalanced accordingly.

Updated 2 years ago.

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Shadowhal

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Shadowhal

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13 300g2g pts

2 years ago

Jan 25, 2023, 9:59:27 PM

I agree with the principle that there should be a retreat option once a battle has started. Battles don't always go the way you imagine. Maybe the enemy brings in unexpected reinforcements or pulls off some clever tactical maneuvre. It just seems silly and pretty unhistorical to always have to fight to the last man.

The solution I had in mind would be a lot simpler: drastically reduce the number of strategic turns a battle lasts (but maybe slightly increase battle rounds?). For early skirmishes, it's just one strategic turn. If there are still survivors after that, either side can decide whether they want to continue fighting or whether they want to retreat. Standard retreat rules apply i.e. it's not an option for an army that just retreated.

I think this should still allow a stronger army to deal significant damage to a weaker opponent. And with some scouting and persistance, one should be able to track down and eliminate the survivors. But it would give a chance for the loser to regroup and make wars less of a tipping point. It also should not be a much bigger issue with units constantly retreating as that wouldn't be an option anway for a unit that had previously retreated.

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Romani0

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Romani0

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6 400g2g pts

2 years ago

Jan 26, 2023, 9:10:45 PM

Shadowhal wrote:
The solution I had in mind would be a lot simpler: drastically reduce the number of strategic turns a battle lasts (but maybe slightly increase battle rounds?). For early skirmishes, it's just one strategic turn. If there are still survivors after that, either side can decide whether they want to continue fighting or whether they want to retreat. Standard retreat rules apply i.e. it's not an option for an army that just retreated.

That would be easier to implement. but, the change to number of rounds per turn - which is necessary for it to be acceptable - will still require rebalancing as it will change the pace of the game.

One of the reasons I imagined it the way I did is that it would allow retreating specific units while keeping others in the fight, a more selective retreat rather than whole armies retreating and ending the battle.. I would even propose a possible update to the idea that maybe retreating units could heal outside the battle and once enough game turns have passed for their "retreating" status - that I called X in the main post - to end, they could re-enter the battle as a normal unit reinforcing.