I agree with the initial post. The difficulty of the game is harder in the first couple levels but once you've progressed enough to beat the middle levels the final ones don't even matter due to being so prepared at that point. I also agree with the turrets being really strong. While I did learn some support turret tech I never found the need to ever build them.



I had an overabundance of industry/food/science when I managed to complete the last level. I initially thought, oh I better save all of this just in case. Building turrets in an odd consistency that I thought would prove to be the best strategy for managing my resources. But in the end I should have just built all claymoar modules just for its sheer brute strength. Maybe the AOE damage of the claymoar just needs to be tuned a bit. They seem pretty strong right now. Maybe slow their attack speed to still make tesla modules a viable option to have with claymoars. As well as a support or two.



Overall. Love the science update. Just needs some tweaking. But that's what we're here to give feedback for afterall!



(misrated the thread, sorry!)

I have been trying to to reach level 3, silll my hands are not set on it

ipsum wrote:
Erm... I don't see how this is any different from shutting down all the rooms and buying everything just before picking up the crystal. So no, this isn't really an exploit at all. In fact, your method sounds more difficult than what I've described. You'd have to protect the merchant with just one hero and run the crystal at the same time.

Thanks for your reply, my additional comment because I was not clear enough: it is different IF the merchant position is very close to the exit room and on the 'lighted line'... As a matter of fact, and that's the only situation where I considered it could be an exploit because you don't have to defend the merchant. But I am not sure how probable it is (one game out of five?).

adn wrote:




One personal comment: I know the merchant behaviour will be improved. But there is a funny thing: when beginning the 'happy hour' -- meaning: when the crystal is evnetually picked up!-- I managed to send a secondary character to a merchant; then I waited my main crystal-bearer to be in the last room before the exit to start chatting with the merchant with my 2nd character: therefore I could buy A LOT of items since all of my dust was unused. Next levels, I could resell all. It both required skills, and a bit of luck because of the merchant position.



So my question: is this happy hour merchant trick a feature or an exploit ?

Erm... I don't see how this is any different from shutting down all the rooms and buying everything just before picking up the crystal. So no, this isn't really an exploit at all. In fact, your method sounds more difficult than what I've described. You'd have to protect the merchant with just one hero and run the crystal at the same time.

Pallanza wrote:
On my side when I finished a level I lose all the stuff I can't /don't have equipped so ... It's weird for me ... XD



(PS: I play on the 0.2.1, so that update could be your answer, I suggest to try your trick after update your game ^_^

This is currently normal behavior, though I don't know if it's by design. Doesn't really make sense to have your bags suddenly emptied when you move to the next floor.

adn wrote:
One personal comment: I know the merchant behaviour will be improved. But there is a funny thing: when beginning the 'happy hour' -- meaning: when the crystal is evnetually picked up!-- I managed to send a secondary character to a merchant; then I waited my main crystal-bearer to be in the last room before the exit to start chatting with the merchant with my 2nd character: therefore I could buy A LOT of items since all of my dust was unused. Next levels, I could resell all. It both required skills, and a bit of luck because of the merchant position.

On my side when I finished a level I lose all the stuff I can't /don't have equipped so ... It's weird for me ... XD



(PS: I play on the 0.2.1, so that update could be your answer, I suggest to try your trick after update your game ^_^

Yet another review of 0.2.1 by a newcomer. First, many thanks to Amplitude Studio and to the Community for having made real this novel game!



I played 12hours with a minimal amount of spoil and I successfully finished in 2h10min with 5500pts. Remaining resources: 100 FIS and 200 D.



I read many posts in this forum. I will not repeat most of the suggestions. I share most of the comments on the unbalanced difficulty with tough lvl2/3 and easier 4/5.



One personal comment: I know the merchant behaviour will be improved. But there is a funny thing: when beginning the 'happy hour' -- meaning: when the crystal is evnetually picked up!-- I managed to send a secondary character to a merchant; then I waited my main crystal-bearer to be in the last room before the exit to start chatting with the merchant with my 2nd character: therefore I could buy A LOT of items since all of my dust was unused. Next levels, I could resell all. It both required skills, and a bit of luck because of the merchant position.



So my question: is this happy hour merchant trick a feature or an exploit ?

I am clearly playing this game wrong. I was able to beat 0.2.1, but with about half the score of the screenshots being posted.



I love this latest patch, but my biggest complaint is with merchants and those big ol' Science crystals. I may just be unlucky, but I never have enough dust to power the necessary rooms to properly defend either of these, and leaving a hero to try and defend them is usually suicide or just ends up drawing enemies into the room anyway. Also, I don't really understanding the pathing of some of the mobs. More often than not, I definitely watched as mobs turn away from the clear path to the crystal to go punch a Merchant all by his lonesome or a Science crystal that's actively researching something. They won't go after an idle Science crystal, though, so I suppose that's part of the strategy. But merchants? Sometimes I feel like there's nothing I can do to keep them alive, especially when enemies spawn in the same room as the merchant.



EDIT: Another thing! I know that the way the exit room is created was changed recently, but on just about every single floor, from first floor to last, without fail, finding the exit room was accompanied with the message that I've opened all the doors on that floor. Is this by design? I find it unlikely that, with this level of consistency, it's entirely lucked based. It changes the game to be more "surviving until you've opened X amount of doors" instead of risk vs reward (hoping you find the exit room and then deciding whether to proceed to the next floor with limited resources or try and earn more resources and risk being overrun).

I just finished this version of the game

What I can say:

The sience is very good and I love brings to construct a "build" depending on what I want to do.

However I find that the level 4 and 5 lack of challenge.

I have exactly the same opinion enz3224.

I think it would increase the price of modules according to their lvl (bcp more expensive a place for a lvl Module 4 for example) and make lvl 5 more difficult (but I do not really have to idea)



Anyway I love this game continue !

I think, that two balance problems: extreme effectivness of attack modules and hight amount of unused industry on last levels - can be solved by changing minor modules properties, so they wouldn't upgrade automatically, after you research their next version.

I think this update makes the start a bit rough given how unreliable it is getting the right rooms and the dust you need for them. I also heard the base output of the modules was lowered because of upgrades you can get, but isn't having a third module essential lower your output already?

Thanks for your feedback!



Some remarks / answers:



@Ail: yes, it’s probably a good solution to differentiate the turrets, thanks!



@Kido: it’s actually planned for a passive skill



@Mailanka: good remark for the wit, it currently plays no role in the analysis. But we’re working on that! Ad yes, we have to nerf the Claymoars…



@Tiphereth: sorry to hear that

With this Science system, we try to mix the total random with a tech tree, and the result is these 4 random choices at each research. I don’t really understand why you think have "lost the control" ? With the previous system, the discovery of blueprints was completely random. Now you have sometimes some interesting choices and you can pick one according to the state of the game, but the randomness also creates some new situations.



And if you are a 4X fan, you know that is very common to have links between the resources (lie science for food and industry)



The global Science system will not change (no real tech tree planned) but obviously, we will iterate to improve and balance it!



@CharlieWoo: Yes, and the overabundance of industry makes the price of Claymoar ridiculous… All is linked!

Playing with new contents is always a nice experience. Science is really fun part, I'm looking forward to see more balanced version.

Those new arts for modules, they are beautiful!



Difficulty

First level is just great. Now I don't have to watch my two heroes dying in first level.

However, need for science made second and third level harder. Personally, second level was really hard. Less resource, weaker heroes, smaller defenses, so on.

From fourth to fifth, module upgrades slowly start to take it's place, making game easier than before.



Science

Much better than random blueprints. Easier to get tower I need. Managing resources is now harder(in a good way), as science modules take 1 major module.

Upgrades are currently too strong, especially on major module upgrades. I was able to reach 580 industry before entering level 5. Compared to 200(300?) on version 0.1.21, well..

Smaller modules are also powerful. 4 fully upgraded claymore can wipe out monsters with extreme AOE damage. On level 5, Turrets took care of all waves, and heroes had nothing to do except opening doors.

Maybe upgrading cost should be more expensive.



Industry & Food

In early levels, there are a lot of places to spend Industry and Food like leveling up, healing, building majors, rebuilding destroyed majors.

However in later games, there aren't enough ways to spend them. You don't have to level heroes up, you barely need healing or rebuilding majors. Building minors isn't enough, they are no match to major's cost. There are not even a single majors in level 5. Thus, they just stack. A lot.



There should be a way to make players to spend Industry and Food, or even force them, like gradually increasing minor module cost, make repairing cost small amount of Industry, maintenance cost for heroes(food) and minors(Industry). Making defense minors weaker and support minors stronger with implementation of 7th level for heroes might be able to help this too. Or abilities that cost Food? Just like hero ability card in ES.



TL;DR

Science is great, but yet overpowered.



Please, keep up the good work. I'm always looking forward to see upcoming features. Constantly checking dev blog!

Mysterarts wrote:


Remark: we want to keep the feeling of relatively weak heroes, they are essential in the game but the main defense are the modules.

But yes, the module need to be less ignored by the mobs.

Yes, I just realized that this game is like TD in rogue-like... but if so, turrets should be more important in low levels I guess?

Tiphereth wrote:
I suppose I'm the only one who is disappointed by the science system. : (

I was hoping something like in 4X games, with technologies to pick up in a tree.

I was expecting this, too. But anyway I like this way of science...for now.

I'd prefer the "techtree" version if there is any, but simply there isn't enough doors. Maybe like 7th level might enough?

I suppose I'm the only one who is disappointed by the science system. : (

I was hoping something like in 4X games, with technologies to pick up in a tree.



I don't like how the major modules are now relative to science. Until now, these modules were one of the few things which were not totally random. And from now on, I lost the control of that too. I can't focus myself on food, industry, or science, or it will be limited by the upgrades, and I can't control that. Well, it's a rogue-like after all, but I was hoping something different.



I'm glad we finally have more informations with the tooltip. Now I really wonder if it really makes sens to have so much minor modules (like 20 power for a 1 delay is pretty much the same than a 10 power for 0.5 delay).



The difficulty is good to me. I had some trouble first, but for now I would say it's somewhere between the 1.16 (pretty hard ^^) and the 1.20 (soft ^^).

I just beat the fifth level with the Scientist patch. I couldn't beat the fifth before. My perspective:



I found level 1 too difficult. You need to manage lots of resources very early on, and you're getting even fewer than before. But like with most games of DotE, if you get traction early, you can power through very well all the way to the end. I got lucky enough to get a Relic pretty near my zone of control and I was able to get upgrade after upgrade. Largely, though, I find Science as a resource rather underwhelming. More to the point, I'll routinely have two or even three of the food or industry modules running, often with an operator, and upgraded as swiftly as I can, because having a couple hundred of those is damn handy, especially by the 5th level. Science, on the other hand, is only ever useful if you happen to find a relic, and then only if you can protect it, and then you're only spending "science" once every three turns.



(It's also not clear to me what role Wit plays when "analyzing" a relic. You just pick something from it, and it takes three turns. Period. There's nothing for an operator to do).



So I never ran more than one science module and I never bothered to upgrade it, and it was more than powerful enough.



I don't agree that the heroes felt underpowered, though I hit level 6 in all the heroes somewhere on the 4th level, and like usual I made sure to max out as many items as I could. But I found a choke point with three to four heroes loaded up with dust field generator and suppression fire bots were absolutely destructive, especially if I had some turrets leading up to them. I did find I used turrets much more, and much better, than before, but I think that has more to do with an increased awareness of how the game is meant to be played ("Hey! I can power/depower rooms AFTER I've opened a door! The ZoC is fluid!") I do find the Claymoars are pretty OP, especially if you can get monsters to bunch up and you have a level 4 neural stunner, like I did.



But I have to say, this was a very satisfying experience. I would just make science more of a thing. Currently, while Food and Industry need to be balanced, you can lean in one direction or the other, more pro-hero or more pro-construction. You can't really lean "pro-science." It's just something that happens or it doesn't, based on what you can find. I'm not sure that's really ideal for a strategy here. I can't see how or why you'd load up on lots of science, how that would be advantageous for you. And in quite a few stages, I didn't even bother with it, because I had saved up nearly 200 science and I could coast on it for a stage.

I haven't gotten much time to play with new implemented update, I plan on playing a full session today! I do not fully understand the concept of science yet other than that it helps you build a variety of buildings without having to use Industry and/or Dust, which I think could be might helpful, assuming that the door you opened doesn't lead to a dead-end room that you never plan on using again, which recently happened to me, which then deemed no use to me. I do hope that the implementation of Science will lead to other things that advantage the player. This game is a gem in the making and is destined for greatness.

Small idea for improving the value of heroes but keeping themself weak:

Have turrets fight with only a percentage of their strength if the room has no major module. Having a hero in the same room could also buff the damage.



For example:

Room without hero and major modue: Turret damage at 50%

Room without hero but with major module: Turret damage at 75%

Room with hero and major module: Turret damage at 100%



You'd have to split your heroes on multiple rooms if the enemy is attacking from multiple sides, which forces the player on higher levels to explore more carefully and think more strategicly. Also, the major modules are at a higher risk because the main fighting would happen in their very room.



To explain it with story/fluff/lore: Turrets alone are fighting with a weak AI which isn't effective on it own. A hero with the right knowledge can manually improve the aiming of the turrets via a small device. Image a laser pointer on the pistol the hero is using and the turrets shoot whereever he is pointing himself.



Further thoughts: It could be a passive ability a hero own. Something like "Increases the damage of turrets in the room he is standing by 20%"

Mysterarts wrote:


Remark: we want to keep the feeling of relatively weak heroes, they are essential in the game but the main defense are the modules.

Oh, okay, if that is intended I will accept that.

Maybe I got a wrong impression of that from the older versions, were it was too easy to defend with very little actual defense-modules because of the nearly invincible heros due to the old defense-formula.



Here's some ideas for turret-distinction:



Part of that probably is already true right now:



The 3-Ind-Turret:

Should have the best Damage per Industry ratio.

Use as cheap filler for long halways.

CD: 0.5

Damage: 6+3*Level

DPS: 12+6*Level



The 7-Ind-Turret:

Should have the best Damage per slot-ratio against single-targets.

Maybe a relatively long cooldown but a massive amount of damage that can knock most opponents out in one hit.

Use against strong and boss-monsters.

CD: 2

Damage: 50+25*Level

DPS: 25+12.5*Level



The 11-Ind-Turret:

Should have the best damage per slot ratio from 3 monsters or more.

Use against tons of weaker monsters.

CD: 1

Damage(Splash only): 10+5*Level

DPS vs. 1 target: 10+5*Level

DPS vs. 3 targets: 30+15*Level

DPS vs. 10 targets: 100+50*Level

Agree totally, I like the new science addition instead of random blueprints as it gives you more control over progression. Heroes are too weak too early in my opinion but maybe that might be me not levelling them up as fast as we now have another resource to manage. Difficulty in level 2 is a massive jump for me, level 1 is too easy and doesnt prepare you for whats to come

Hello enz3224, Thanks for the feedback

I agree with you on the power of the upgraded modules, especially the resource production modules.

Good idea, Ail, about the turrets being more distinct!

Remark: we want to keep the feeling of relatively weak heroes, they are essential in the game but the main defense are the modules.

But yes, the module need to be less ignored by the mobs.

I agree about that there is a mismatch in the strength of heros vs. turrets.

Heros feel really week in comparison and most damage is done by the turrets.

This is especially true of you don't find any decent armour or weaponry, at which you have less impact as a player than on what modules you research.



I think a big role in that is that most monsters simply ignore the turrets.

Also the addition of splash-damage is huge. I feel a thing that could be done here is to make the turrets more distinct.



Make Turrets that only do splash damage but no additional single-target-damage at all and make turrets that have high single-target-damage but no splash-damage.

This would make the choice which tower to get much harder, as you'd want to adapt depending on the monster types you have to deal with.

Right now getting Claymores is a total no-brainer and feels like almost a necessity compared to most of the other stuff.