Xeroeth wrote:
I just started my first game... and I was butchered in the first 15min. I like it, it's the first game in a loong time that's genuine hard and have some kind of challenge. I hope this will end up with huge amount of levels to clear, something that could give us more that 40-50hrs of play

Better to realize your doing poorly 15min in, than to wait until you've played for 2 hours only to discover that your build isn't all it's cracked up to be. I relish a game with higher difficulty in the early stages. Dark Souls does this the best, forces you to get better, by not walking you through the first levels. I too have lost on Floor 1 before. I fixed my mistakes and start over, it's what rogue-likes are all about

I didn't get a chance to play any of the previous versions. I started on 0.7.10, but the game seems pretty fair and totally do-able. If anyone's having trouble since the new update, I've created a guide on my winning strategy on Steam. Check it out and let me know what you think



DotE Alpha 0.7.10 "Max O' Kane Winning Strategy" Official Steam Guide

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
On very Easy, it is basically impossible to keep opening doors after you find the exit. Even after the 0.7.10 hotfix.



Overall the game difficulty is much higher and opening doors after the exit is found is basically being avalanched by huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge mobs.



Right now, we have less choice. Before, we could seriously think about opening more doors after finding the exit. Right now, there is no choice, because it's certain death. So the player is forced to go up the next level with less resources & tech then it could.



Mob difficulty after finding the exit should be toned down hard.

Personally, I haven't had the huge mob problem after finding the exit. On every floor, I would explore all the rooms and then leave. Towards Floors 8 and 9 though, I did bail due to all the doors opening and the continuous mob spawning. Don't know if that's a bug or if it's supposed to happen. It was quite a rush. Like some warden releasing all the prisoners

Dust is key to winning this game. As far as I can tell, the Dev Team is doing 2 things. Making it a risk to continue after finding the exit, this is because opening all the doors is so profitable & rewarding. And 2, making dust harder to get naturally, thus making you think twice about going all DPS with your heroes. SOme good dust collecting heroes are Max, amazing with "Pilfer", Golgy is great with "Pickpocket", and I'm sure there is some way to use the Wardens +Dust Skill effectively. Adding more depth to the game is good, I think you guys need to adjust your strategies.

I read your guide, and while i agree on most you've written I disagree about your research priorities. In my opinion it's much stronger to rush generator upgrades, especially if you have Max, because you can put generators into any rooms that are not connected to unlit rooms and can easily defend them, since there are no mob spawns coming through

Zigeye wrote:
Dust is key to winning this game. As far as I can tell, the Dev Team is doing 2 things. Making it a risk to continue after finding the exit, this is because opening all the doors is so profitable & rewarding. And 2, making dust harder to get naturally, thus making you think twice about going all DPS with your heroes. SOme good dust collecting heroes are Max, amazing with "Pilfer", Golgy is great with "Pickpocket", and I'm sure there is some way to use the Wardens +Dust Skill effectively. Adding more depth to the game is good, I think you guys need to adjust your strategies.

But when the player is in the firt levels, it shouldn't be so impossible as it is now. It basically goes from manageable to uber-impossible. Even on very easy.

I just started my first game... and I was butchered in the first 15min. I like it, it's the first game in a loong time that's genuine hard and have some kind of challenge. I hope this will end up with huge amount of levels to clear, something that could give us more that 40-50hrs of play

I think the game difficulty is too inconsistent. It's easy if you're lucky in the first few levels, especially in terms of research (shop, generator upgrades), but very hard if you're unlucky and only get weak research options. I would like a general nerf on passive dust generation strategies, because they are just boring. I already beat the game on easy multiple times, and with Max O'Kane it the was easiest, but also the most boring run, because i at times had no unlit rooms anywhere on the floor, since his pilfer passive combined with a shop created enough dust to light every new room. The run i had the most fun with was when I started with Hikensha and Rakya Pulmoni (the smoker). The only source of additional dust I had was a shop. I think dust generating heroes do not inrease the depth of the game, but rather decrease it, because you can't survive on the upper floors without at least one source of dust, so you're basically forced to take those heroes if you want to take the best possible strategy. You can argue that since this is a single-player game it's up to the player whether or not to pick easy or hard heroes, but there's already a manual selection of difficulty beforehand, and personally I have a strong urge to optimize. To clarify my point of view, I'd like to compare DotE to The Binding of Isaac and Faster Than Light.



In The Binding of Isaac the randomness is even stronger than in DotE, and the items are extremely unbalanced, but it has gameplay that relies on movement and reaction, and even if you get only the worst items imaginable, you can still in theory beat the game.

FTL and DotE on the other hand have gameplay that relies on strategy, and there is a limit to the influence of the player's strategy. Even if you do everything right, if you get no research going till floor 5 because you had bad luck, you're done for. Similiary in FTL you basically have to get a crew teleporter and a stealth device to beat the final boss, otherwise the fight gets ridiculously hard. While I do think that randomness is a crucial part of rogue-likes, I think that in a game based on strategy too much randomness causes frustration.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
But when the player is in the firt levels, it shouldn't be so impossible as it is now. It basically goes from manageable to uber-impossible. Even on very easy.

I just don't find this to be true, maybe you're not pairing your heroes correctly. The first 2 heroes need to match well together or you will simply have not chance. I have a strategy guide with a how to for beating this version of the alpha here, it might be just what you need to be successful more consistently.

Noxeus wrote:
I think the game difficulty is too inconsistent. It's easy if you're lucky in the first few levels, especially in terms of research (shop, generator upgrades), but very hard if you're unlucky and only get weak research options. I would like a general nerf on passive dust generation strategies, because they are just boring. I already beat the game on easy multiple times, and with Max O'Kane it the was easiest, but also the most boring run, because i at times had no unlit rooms anywhere on the floor, since his pilfer passive combined with a shop created enough dust to light every new room. The run i had the most fun with was when I started with Hikensha and Rakya Pulmoni (the smoker). The only source of additional dust I had was a shop. I think dust generating heroes do not inrease the depth of the game, but rather decrease it, because you can't survive on the upper floors without at least one source of dust, so you're basically forced to take those heroes if you want to take the best possible strategy. You can argue that since this is a single-player game it's up to the player whether or not to pick easy or hard heroes, but there's already a manual selection of difficulty beforehand, and personally I have a strong urge to optimize. To clarify my point of view, I'd like to compare DotE to The Binding of Isaac and Faster Than Light.



In The Binding of Isaac the randomness is even stronger than in DotE, and the items are extremely unbalanced, but it has gameplay that relies on movement and reaction, and even if you get only the worst items imaginable, you can still in theory beat the game.

FTL and DotE on the other hand have gameplay that relies on strategy, and there is a limit to the influence of the player's strategy. Even if you do everything right, if you get no research going till floor 5 because you had bad luck, you're done for. Similiary in FTL you basically have to get a crew teleporter and a stealth device to beat the final boss, otherwise the fight gets ridiculously hard. While I do think that randomness is a crucial part of rogue-likes, I think that in a game based on strategy too much randomness causes frustration.

I disagree. Both with FTL and DotE you can choose to take different paths, so to speak, that allow you to be successful in multiple ways. You need choose a build that has many paths to the finish, not just relying on the one path that has worked for you. The game IS a gamble, it's your job to increase your odds of success. That's what makes rogue-likes so challenging and fun, IMO. The best builds, are not the most powerful, but the ones that have the best odds of success.

I'm new to the game, but I did try "Easy" today after getting to Floor 10 on "Too Easy"...



I really think the difficulties should be renamed to "Easy" and "Hard" (respectively). Variables? Hardcore, Nightmare, Survivor, etc.



I do agree that "Easy" is very difficult. I'm assuming that the mobs have higher HP and DPS? It is especially difficult when enemy waves come in, spawning quite a bit of major module destroyers. Here I am trying to defend a choke, and my major modules in another area are getting wrecked despite the attack modules in the room. Then I have to spend all the Industry resource to rebuild that module, lest I continue on starving. Not to mention the lack of dust to even make a decent attempt at the crystal run.



I don't mean to cry and complain, but I would like to see the difficulties renamed. Maybe a bit of balancing on the harder difficulty. I've put in 1-2 hours worth on "Easy", coming out to a few games worth where I get wrecked on Floor 2. I usually end up quitting due to major modules being destroyed and no hope in progressing.



Meh. Still and enjoyable challenge. Somewhat.

Noxeus wrote:
I read your guide, and while i agree on most you've written I disagree about your research priorities. In my opinion it's much stronger to rush generator upgrades, especially if you have Max, because you can put generators into any rooms that are not connected to unlit rooms and can easily defend them, since there are no mob spawns coming through

The cost of generators goes up 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, etc. It creates a diminishing return over time. How many generators do you build per floor before floor… 8, let’s say? Getting your minor offensive modules asap allows you to build less for a bigger bang, so to speak, thus costing less industry over time. I always have too much science by end game and more than enough industry to survive, with the amount of dust I receive from Max. I would consider building more than 1 food module if that's what you’re saying.



If you only mean that you upgrade them asap, I could agree, but I find that waiting for them to get a bonus upgrade, like, I to III, or II to IV, is the best time to jump to upgrading a major module. Or of course if your only choice, is to upgrade a Major, simply because all your Minor Modules options are sucky, is the other time I upgrade Major Modules. Since the odds of a Major Module being something I would want to upgrade by end game are higher, than the Minor Modules choices, I tend to wait on the Majors for these times as more of a better gamble so to speak.



You do have a point and I'm sure there is a better way to prioritize which upgrades come first, but I've never lost with this strategy yet, and not relying on any 1 item to drop, or rushing a certain module first, or any other kind of luck requirement, is the key to this strategies success. I have won with 3 consecutive playthroughs, and with the last one, I only got Food Module to IV by end game and the rest were at I or II, still with little trouble. Feel free to watch my run on YouTube, if you’re interested in seeing it work. Thanks for the comments, I always appreciate new ideas.

NoirMongoose wrote:
Personally, I haven't had the huge mob problem after finding the exit. On every floor, I would explore all the rooms and then leave. Towards Floors 8 and 9 though, I did bail due to all the doors opening and the continuous mob spawning. Don't know if that's a bug or if it's supposed to happen. It was quite a rush. Like some warden releasing all the prisoners

YES! The game gets exciting when you focus and play it right Maybe it was the Rhino Riders that were opening doors? I had this happen to me.

My first easy playthrough just ended, wasn't so hard once I grasped the basics. After this one game I can tell this game have potential, it sucks you up, but if your not careful ... something will eat you

Dust problem don't exists if I have that handy bonus from main hero, use one shop and leave 2 spawn points to create monster waves that generate additional income.

Zigeye wrote:
I disagree. Both with FTL and DotE you can choose to take different paths, so to speak, that allow you to be successful in multiple ways. You need choose a build that has many paths to the finish, not just relying on the one path that has worked for you. The game IS a gamble, it's your job to increase your odds of success. That's what makes rogue-likes so challenging and fun, IMO. The best builds, are not the most powerful, but the ones that have the best odds of success.

Well the problem is that there is no viable alternative to passive dust generation on the higher floors. Without pilfer or a shop you will just get overrun by mobs, or they'll at least cause insustainable costs in industry and food. I'm not saying that dust is the only thing that matters, but in my opinion the current FIDS-Strength goes dust>>food>industry>science, with dust being by far the strongest, because you need to invest less food and industry if you can lower the amount of mobs that spawn. This imbalance is in my opinion just not healthy for the game. In Endless Space all four recources felt equally strong and I would like DotE to have equally good balance.

My basic strategy tip: by the end of level 3 - 10 to 15 minutes of the game - you know if you'll have troubles ahead or no. If you feel so, start again.

Noxeus wrote:
Well the problem is that there is no viable alternative to passive dust generation on the higher floors. Without pilfer or a shop you will just get overrun by mobs, or they'll at least cause insustainable costs in industry and food. I'm not saying that dust is the only thing that matters, but in my opinion the current FIDS-Strength goes dust>>food>industry>science, with dust being by far the strongest, because you need to invest less food and industry if you can lower the amount of mobs that spawn. This imbalance is in my opinion just not healthy for the game. In Endless Space all four recources felt equally strong and I would like DotE to have equally good balance.

Good point, dust is really important, but has few effective options to obtain it, as of now. Golgy's skill "Pick Pocket" seems weak at only 10% increase in mob dust drops overall. And Warden Mormish's Skill "War Profiteer" only works in rooms where mobs are killed near him and every 3 turns at that. Making it pretty pointless with how squishy he is. The item "Third Eye" is very important if you're not going to use Max to get that all important Pilfer skill. Which makes a successful game kind of a one trick pony. I agree with a tune up of the Dust skills or items being an important next step for future updates.

I think that the current build is "relatively" easy compared to some other builds.

The dust-drop-chance is really high and allows you to prevent having to fight against monsters from several directions quite well.

The increased spawn-rate of major-slots also helps a lot.

Door-openers, however, can mess up everthing.

I was relatively lucky that I had them in combination with the mobs that stay in their rooms and grow bigger. Those are really pointless imho. They should start moving once they are grown up since otherwise, you can just heal up at a healing-node and do them 1 by 1 even when at full strength.

Noxeus wrote:
Well the problem is that there is no viable alternative to passive dust generation on the higher floors. Without pilfer or a shop you will just get overrun by mobs, or they'll at least cause insustainable costs in industry and food. I'm not saying that dust is the only thing that matters, but in my opinion the current FIDS-Strength goes dust>>food>industry>science, with dust being by far the strongest, because you need to invest less food and industry if you can lower the amount of mobs that spawn. This imbalance is in my opinion just not healthy for the game. In Endless Space all four recources felt equally strong and I would like DotE to have equally good balance.

Zigeye wrote:
Good point, dust is really important, but has few effective options to obtain it, as of now. Golgy's skill "Pick Pocket" seems weak at only 10% increase in mob dust drops overall. And Warden Mormish's Skill "War Profiteer" only works in rooms where mobs are killed near him and every 3 turns at that. Making it pretty pointless with how squishy he is. The item "Third Eye" is very important if you're not going to use Max to get that all important Pilfer skill. Which makes a successful game kind of a one trick pony. I agree with a tune up of the Dust skills or items being an important next step for future updates.

I'd agree with these points. I don't think the current version is too hard, but I do worry about what will happen when more difficulties are added. If you're not getting dust then each door you open just keeps adding more pressure to you defenses till they finally collapse. Given the few options for generating dust viable strategies are limited. I'm not arguing for more dust but there should be a greater range of options when it comes to gathering dust or functioning without it.

It's my same worry. I have proposed some ideas to diversify gameplay, in terms of making dust less of a 'breaking the camel's back' issue. Right now, if you don't produce enough dust, you eventually get into a point of no return where you will be overrun for sure. You could take a look into them, I have posted in specific threads. If they are bad, please say so, and maybe suggest on improvements.

"biggest problem - not enough dust for illuminating rooms" + 1



i can't use the special major module (buff attack for heroes, buff defense for module etc) because it's already difficult to build each resources major module.

There was a bug in some of the previous versions that switched the difficulty to "Too Easy" when loading a save.

Maybe that's why the game feels harder to you.

I didn't experience major difficulty changes in the first 6 floors. But the new floors 7 and 8 are incredibly tough. Even with everything going really well, at floor 8 I'm definitely unable to handle it, to a degree where I don't even see any chance to be successfull even if I did things differently or had even more luck than I already had.

Even if things go really well (maxed heroes, good items, lots of stockpiled resources, good tech), the amount of mobs, combined with them punching through 400+ defence and dealing damage to everything in the room including modules, makes for a quick death no matter what you bring. I switched to the Dust Field Generator stacking after noticing the damage issue in late floor 7, but even then they punched through with ease.

If anyone has some pro tips for floor 8, I'm listening. If I go Dust field generator, red crystal crab kill the modules, then my heroes. If I don't go DFG, maxed out heroes die within seconds.



I'm all for difficult games, but there has to be a chance to beat it as long as I don't get too unlucky with the random generator. Up to floor 7, when I died I always had the feeling that I lost because I screwed up. Floor 8 simply roflstomps me without giving even the slightest chance.

Guess I have to try again aswell. Haven't really finished a game since quite a while.

And considering your descriptions even trying won't be bringing me much closer to doing so.

I found the 8th floor easier than 7 is lucky>. <

After the last update, i find less dust in the room and on my 20 games, i have always multiples dead-end:



I open 6 doors, no dust, dead-end, try another way from the cristal, and an another dead-end after 8 rooms without dust (or +3 max on a room)



I have the game since the begining and, yes, it was hard but i always finish the last level.



But with this update, i can't pass the 4th level (or the 5 max).



Did i just miss something?

i think yes its geting harder in the new version i lost heros all the time 2-3 in 1 playthru

Easy mode now very hard. Can't pass level 2 Oo

Agreed with severed...before patch I have hard time with Easy, but could actually at least get to level 3-5...now level 2 is already killing most of my guys out...

now i have permanent death on level 3(easy mode). biggest problem - not enough dust for illuminating rooms and monsters start to press insane hard.

So, I seem to be noticing that since I've been playing the .6 update DOTE seems to be significantly harder than it was before.



I'm noticing that on "Too Easy" I'm actually losing heroes if I'm not really careful, especially in levels 6/7/8. Before, I feel like I could breeze through "Too Easy" and only be in a bad situation very rarely. "Too Easy" was definitely well named before; now, I'm not so sure.



"Easy" seems to be much harder as well. Before I could beat it in perhaps 40-60% of games that I made it out of level 2 in (I tend to restart games if they don't give a pretty good start). In 10+ games in .6, I have yet to even make it out of level 4 successfully, much less make it to the end of the game. This difficulty has never been "Easy" for me, but it was doable. Now it seems almost impossible for me.



I'm wondering if this is just a string of bad luck and a quirk of my perception, or if other people are noticing this. Is this a problem, or is this what we want? Has the game changed to the point that I'm playing it wrong now? None of my existing strategies seems to be working well, where before they worked pretty consistently.



Thoughts?

glad to hear its not just me...about one in 5 games on easy I can get to level 4 and then get badly beaten.

So, did the dev team balance the easy mode and dust ?



I don't play the game after the last maj because i can't win or pass the level 3/4.



Should i give up the game? :/

Stop relying so heavily on RNG. Research the shop, find a merchant, and load it down with operators.

you haven't merchant on every level, and when i have juste two or three room lighted i don't have place for this module (especially if the first three room you discovered haven't major module slot. It happens frequently)

True, but it does make a big difference when you can manage it. Don't be afraid to demolish a generator to make room for the shop though. Having that shop up and running - particularly early in a level - can mean you will be able to stockpile enough resources to last several levels.

Was finally able to win on easy. focused most on Food and a bit on Labor. Put my research into tear gas and claymores along with the defense generator. This seemed to let me dominate most groups of mobs. I also got lucky and ended with a nice assortment of heroes (all different weapons and 2 were combat focused and 2 were more operators). I was able to get one of the operators up to over 100DPS with ranged attack which was very helpful and had all of my guys with high defense by late in the game.

Just got wiped on a Level 2 Easy. Had no trouble until a few door opens after finding the level exit. Then this incredible pile of tough damaging mobs spawned and I had no chance. Hadn't gotten even one thing researched by that point.



Think I read a dev saying that now harder mobs will start spawning after you find the level exit. This gives you the choice between exiting early and not maxing as much as possible on that level, or seeing if you can cope.

On very Easy, it is basically impossible to keep opening doors after you find the exit. Even after the 0.7.10 hotfix.



Overall the game difficulty is much higher and opening doors after the exit is found is basically being avalanched by huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge mobs.



Right now, we have less choice. Before, we could seriously think about opening more doors after finding the exit. Right now, there is no choice, because it's certain death. So the player is forced to go up the next level with less resources & tech then it could.



Mob difficulty after finding the exit should be toned down hard.