Meedoc (game designer on Endless Space and Legend) came to me during the meal with the following idea: remove the module levels (2-4) and suggest instead specific upgrades to customise the modules. For example, the Claymoar would have these upgrades: more damage, more health/defense, bigger radius, faster cooldown. We would keep the system of 4 random choices (maybe a little more? Maybe 2 upgrades by module in each category?) but the idea is mainly to offer more customization and more combinations to test. What do you think of that?

It's a lot more interesting than just flat bonuses. If you want people to diversify their ways to play the game, they need different "tools" to be able to reach each level.

But at th emomen there's just one thing we can do to win the game : survive long enough, so the only interesting thing is to kill things as you HAVE to do that.

Why not modules that would render you heroes invisible in the sam eroom they are ? Or a module that would change the target priorities of the enemies ? Or a module that would teleport enemies in a non-opened room ? So we could try to "sneak" in the game. Or a module that would turn the allegeance of enemies : they would fight for you and you could use them to scout rooms without opening them.

The game really needs effect other than do damage/prevent damage/raise speed/lessens speed. We need more "gameplay" modules.

VieuxChat wrote:
O_o

Sorry. I didn't intend to hurt you.

It was also only suggestions from me

It's just that the game doesn't propose anything from "be better at killing/surviving".

No problem

muhku wrote:
This could actually have a use if it was a major module which increases the strength of minor modules in the same room. Mostly in bottleneck rooms in the really hard final levels which will be added later on.

Totally, maybe a 1.1x defense, attack, speed,radius.... major module or something like that.

amaterasu wrote:
EDIT: how about a module that can boost other modules in the same room?

This could actually have a use if it was a major module which increases the strength of minor modules in the same room. Mostly in bottleneck rooms in the really hard final levels which will be added later on.

amaterasu wrote:
hum, i can create some kind of blockade in strategic places.



It was only a suggestion

O_o

Sorry. I didn't intend to hurt you.

It was also only suggestions from me

It's just that the game doesn't propose anything from "be better at killing/surviving".

hum, i can create some kind of blockade in strategic places.



It was only a suggestion

amaterasu wrote:
EDIT: how about a module that can boost other modules in the same room?

Such module won't change the gameplay. The others will only be better at what they're doing.

New module sneed to add new ways to win a level : like for instance break a wall where there wasn't one.

Or a module that change the direction of mobs : it would be very usefull in the crystal phase.

Or a scout module.

Or a module that would transform the crystal : it becomes unbreakable, but each module that is destroyed will lower the Dust. Once you find the exit, you automatically win.

Or a module that let you scramble some rooms (unlit for instance).

Or a module that let you indicate the direction of exit.

Or a module that would let you earn more FIS per turn for each non-lit room and that charges : every 4 or 5 door opened, the crystal is moved one room closer to the exit.

That is pretty interesting considering we do have the LAN Major Module that increases the defense of ALL modules. Maybe have on that increases the attack power or lower the Attack Cooldown. The LAN Module is really interesting.

Mysterarts wrote:




Meedoc (game designer on Endless Space and Legend) came to me during the meal with the following idea: remove the module levels (2-4) and suggest instead specific upgrades to customise the modules. For example, the Claymoar would have these upgrades: more damage, more health/defense, bigger radius, faster cooldown. We would keep the system of 4 random choices (maybe a little more? Maybe 2 upgrades by module in each category?) but the idea is mainly to offer more customization and more combinations to test. What do you think of that?

I'm Amaterasu and i approve this idea . When you find a upgrade crystal, it's not even funny or interesting, you take the XXX upgrade and that's all. But if you can customise the modules, it would be great, and make the player think about his situation and what will be useful for his future.



EDIT: how about a module that can boost other modules in the same room?

VieuxChat wrote:
It's a lot more interesting than just flat bonuses. If you want people to diversify their ways to play the game, they need different "tools" to be able to reach each level.

But at th emomen there's just one thing we can do to win the game : survive long enough, so the only interesting thing is to kill things as you HAVE to do that.

Why not modules that would render you heroes invisible in the sam eroom they are ? Or a module that would change the target priorities of the enemies ? Or a module that would teleport enemies in a non-opened room ? So we could try to "sneak" in the game. Or a module that would turn the allegeance of enemies : they would fight for you and you could use them to scout rooms without opening them.

The game really needs effect other than do damage/prevent damage/raise speed/lessens speed. We need more "gameplay" modules.

I agree that more variety = more good. I think more variety also means more random but less reliance on specific random instances - that is you can't plan ahead too much, but it is also less likely that you will be screwed if something you were hoping for doesn't happen. So you sort of need to know or guess what's the best course of action of the ones you are currently given.



But I actually like the teleport idea better if you could teleport heroes between two teleport modules.

I forgot modules that would let you spawn your crystal somewhere else to "juggle" the enemies.

Or modules that would let you create an exit if you have enough of those modules (they would be non combat modules, be very fragile, and autmatically call aggro ?)

Mysterarts wrote:
There is a very interesting discussion here

Glad that you think so!

Mysterarts wrote:
I understand your point of view. But for me, the problem is more the “uselessness” of some modules. Even if a player has her/his own play style, one of the goals of this game is to (attempt to) force her/him to try different strategies. So yes, if there is a winning strategy (and this is currently the case), this is frustrating. But if we succeed to create a game with different ways to play, we don’t want to give the possibility to the player to choose always the same researches. However…

Actually this is exactly what I meant. Every upgrade should be important somehow.

Chthon wrote:
My ideas for rerolling for a cost. Give the player 2 options:

1: Spend 5-10 research points on an immediate roll (make it random within the range.)

2: Hack the console for free, however it takes 1 through 3 turns to reboot with new options.

I like the console hacking idea also! But wouldn't you need a hero to actually "hack" the stone for a couple of doors, similar to operate? Which brings to mind that hacking mechanic could be applied to other artifacts as well? You would have less reliance on IND and able to produce more sci

Mysterarts wrote:
Meedoc (game designer on Endless Space and Legend) came to me during the meal with the following idea: remove the module levels (2-4) and suggest instead specific upgrades to customise the modules. For example, the Claymoar would have these upgrades: more damage, more health/defense, bigger radius, faster cooldown. We would keep the system of 4 random choices (maybe a little more? Maybe 2 upgrades by module in each category?) but the idea is mainly to offer more customization and more combinations to test. What do you think of that?

I think this works with ability to reroll. Would also make it more difficult to just try to get them all any time you can. You obviously get more probability with tear gas research options if you leave the "basic" version of other minors away. [edit:althoughIthinkthesesortofresearchesshouldprobablybelesscostlyandmaybetakeonly2doors,especiallyifthere'smanyofthem]



What do you think about researches which would affect heroes? For example gimp some stats to scale less when leveling up and make a research for drastic improvement in these stats. Or do it some other way than through stats, or do it through items (item power +50% etc)... the point of this kind of mechanic would be to eliminate the ability to progress in the game by only building food replicators, but heroes would still be able to become powerful. So if you start with or find strong fighter heroes then you would want to upgrade their fighting abilities and rely less on turrets, and vice versa, so you would also get a bit of variety and options.

Hello!



I've played through this game quite a few times now, and decided to post my input.



So far I have beat the game twice. Once a few weeks ago and once after the recent patch - a game I just finished (Easy difficulty). In most playthroughs I was terribly overwhelmed by monsters already in the second or third level. If I lose a hero early on I usually just restart, because the early game seems to just be that important. On both occasions that I beat the game it seemed that the only reason for this was that I managed to get a good freak circus going early enough. If you manage well in the beginning, and gain enough survivability quickly, the game doesn't really seem to give you much challenge later on. I'm sure this will be assessed later on by the devs, though. Yeah I know it's supposed to be "easy"



In my latest playthrough I thought I was doing really bad in the beginning, since I hadn't got a good chance to upgrade my modules. Also, level after level, I got bad luck with either major module slot placing or dust gain and just couldn't fit more than 3-4 major modules in defendable positions. Those were food or ind depending on which I needed more. I hoarded my +2 per turn science in hopes that I would find an artifact (research stone) in a good position. I didn't but managed to get a couple of researches done. I sat three operating heroes around my FI generators and defeated the waves of monsters nagging at me by building corridors filled with claymores with some doors left closed in a smart way with the spare IND that I had, until I had opened all doors with the huge cannon guy who couldn't operate that well. The operating heroes were Opbot (the name is sorta fitting btw), the spider girl and the green nurse lady.



I kept doing that same thing on each level, and I just finished the last level easily with all heroes level 8 and 300+ FIS in the bank. I was sort of stunned by the fact that it actually was the last level and I finished. I hadn't built a single science module during the game. My only researches were food replicator III and one level of claymores. That's it. Rest of the upgrades didn't work out because the research stones were too far away and too easily destroyed by things which I had no way of fighting during each spawn, because I could only defend them with 2 or 3 heroes, and those would be needed for base defense anyway - even though I only had a couple of major modules. This setup basically makes research useless unless you manage to find a research facility in a pocket or (almost) right next to your crystal, and then leave the doors next to it unopened until you have exhausted your science on upgrades.



By all means I felt like I should have lost that game long before reaching the last level, I just got so much bad luck compared to many other playthroughs. Then I realised what had gone wrong in the past. I had been doing two things:



- using some IND and precious module slots to build science factories for researching upgrades, and then failing miserably in trying to save the research stones from imminent destruction, which is very probable in dungeon levels past 2 => huge loads of resources & level progression lost

- constructing too many major modules (more than 3-4) and sometimes reconstructing them for a hefty price after they have been easily destroyed by the large sturdy crystalline gorillas => huge loads of resources lost



After a certain point I noticed that I didn't really need or even want most of the upgrades. Why would I? Upgrading FIS production only makes strategic sense if you have a lot of production plants, otherwise you gain very little from it. I don't see why you would want to have a lot of modules; they're easy to lose and the more you have the more you are penalized for losing them. LAN module, which seems to be intended for countering this, also requires research. I haven't yet managed to research it in a game, but since it takes away a precious major module slot I would probably use it only if I had "excess" slots - which is unlikely. Same goes for the hero attack module. For minor modules I would rather just use claymores everywhere, since 1 level of those chews up mobs in higher levels just fine... Possibly a couple of healing modules in a room closer to the crystal.



TL;DR



- currently it seems to be more worthwhile to produce ind / food, and not produce sci at all, because upgrades are usually hard to get and are not really worth risking anything, plus you get enough science anyway when you are waiting for a good stone to spawn

- the game feels a bit focused on early game

- it's not worth it to make your major module cost exceed 20 IND by too much*

- Opbot is overpowered (woot!)

- I'd still rather build claymores than the other small modules for defense (they were nerfed in the latest patch?)



* this, of course, excludes the rare coincidence where RNG gives you a good pocket with many major slots and enough dust to go around



I humbly suggest a few things (some) of which could be considered:



- monsters should scale up more on later levels, or something should start happening in order to increase difficulty there

- bosses anyone? some could auto-target heroes, some major modules, etc... (edit: apparently this is to be implemented already =)

- make operate less useful or provide some other similar passive skill that could be used instead - perhaps eliminate SCI and IND dependency and make passive heroes generate SCI? currently it seems to be hard to justify building a science module.

- make major modules cheaper/sturdier (or both)

- make research stones indestructible during research, but in return make research take way longer AND cost more AND limit the times you can perform research on each stone, after which it blows up or something

- if research is supposed to be hard to get, then the bonus should be somewhat substantial

- put a cap on the amount of minor modules of the same type that can be constructed per room (encourage usefulness of researching other modules besides claymores) OR make their IND cost scale up by the amount there is in one single room

- remove ability to randomly upgrade FIS straight from research stones. Instead give player ability to upgrade or not upgrade EACH generator with science; level I -> Level II -> III etc.

- perhaps retain ability to research the global level cap for all major modules; e.g. at first you couldn't upgrade them at all, until you take a "generators level II" upgrade from the stone, after which you could upgrade each generator to said level

- shuffle research options between each door opened





All that said, I think the game is pretty enjoyable even in the state it currently is in. I also really like the R&D part of the game, sadly it just doesn't really seem to work too well yet. Keep developing!



cheers,



muhku

Sounds good to me. But the hard thing should once again be to balance it properly. As long as there's modules that are fairly useless overall, it should probably be focussed on first.



But please keep considering to include some drawbacks for stacking same-type-modules in a room. Reduced efficiency/increased price are both good ideas here.

Hi,

There is a very interesting discussion here



Indeed, the Science is a young feature and we need to iterate on it with you! Some remarks and answers to your posts:

muhku wrote:
- monsters should scale up more on later levels, or something should start happening in order to increase difficulty there

- bosses anyone? some could auto-target heroes, some major modules, etc... (edit: apparently this is to be implemented already =)

Yes, absolutely, we planned some really interesting and game changing mobs!

muhku wrote:
Remove ability to randomly upgrade FIS straight from research stones. Instead give player ability to upgrade or not upgrade EACH generator with science;

We are trying to not add micromanagement on this feature.

muhku wrote:
- make research stones indestructible during research […]

It’s sometimes hard to defend them but I think it’s really interesting to create new temporary point of defence in dungeon. To improve the situation, I prefer to find a solution that will give more possibility to defend them.

muhku wrote:
- put a cap on the amount of minor modules of the same type that can be constructed per room (encourage usefulness of researching other modules besides claymores) OR make their IND cost scale up by the amount there is in one single room

Interesting idea! I don’t like the cap because it’s too restrictive but the cost scale may be useful. There is also another solution: reduced the effect of modules of the same type in a room.

muhku wrote:
-shuffle research options between each door opened

muhku wrote:
I also think that it's a bad idea to force you to research "things that you don't really want", because those things are useless things that don't really have a value in the game. Rather make all researchable things have some critical use that's actually needed in a certain play style.

I understand your point of view. But for me, the problem is more the “uselessness” of some modules. Even if a player has her/his own play style, one of the goals of this game is to (attempt to) force her/him to try different strategies. So yes, if there is a winning strategy (and this is currently the case), this is frustrating. But if we succeed to create a game with different ways to play, we don’t want to give the possibility to the player to choose always the same researches. However…

Chthon wrote:
My ideas for rerolling for a cost. Give the player 2 options:

1: Spend 5-10 research points on an immediate roll (make it random within the range.)

2: Hack the console for free, however it takes 1 through 3 turns to reboot with new options.

…Giving the possibility to reroll the choices is interesting, if it’s not free And disabling the option of getting a double upgrade is a good idea 3

Chthon wrote:
4 Give us a way to lock one topic in so that when we research another topic, this one is guaranteed to be here when we're done.

I’m less convinced about this. I really like the “you have 4 choices. Take one. You don’t know if the others will be available again”. It’s important for the “rogue-like” part of the game

Chthon wrote:
1 Increase the number of research items and categories. Right now there should be 2 major categories for the two kind of major structures: resource and combat

We want to keep the same categories for the build menu…

mattel wrote:
And yes the claymores are weaker rank 4 in patch 2.1 91 damage and something 50-60 AE damage now patch 3.6 rank 4 41 damage and 41 AE damage weaker but still to strong than the other choices because of the AE damage i would say make the AE damage weaker[…]

Yes, there is still a problem with the Claymoar, it should only affect a damage area.

muhku wrote:
I actually think the game should get incrementally harder and really kill you if you get left behind in the tech for too long.

I totally agree on that!

Chthon wrote:
Frankly, other than not having an option to get a new set of choices at a cost, I think the system is fine. We just need more categories and options.

Meedoc (game designer on Endless Space and Legend) came to me during the meal with the following idea: remove the module levels (2-4) and suggest instead specific upgrades to customise the modules. For example, the Claymoar would have these upgrades: more damage, more health/defense, bigger radius, faster cooldown. We would keep the system of 4 random choices (maybe a little more? Maybe 2 upgrades by module in each category?) but the idea is mainly to offer more customization and more combinations to test. What do you think of that?

My ideas for rerolling for a cost. Give the player 2 options:

1: Spend 5-10 research points on an immediate roll (make it random within the range.)

2: Hack the console for free, however it takes 1 through 3 turns to reboot with new options.



The idea here is in neither case has the player gotten anything, nor guaranteed that he will get the options he wants. There is no reason to charge him full price as a result. However I do think that a reroll should disallow the option of getting a double upgrade. E.g. from 1 to 3, or from 2 to 4. If you're doing this, you're pretty much saying that none of the choices available will benefit you, but you risk missing out on a really good option that would have come if you just took one.



Option 1 would encourage players to gather more science more often. It would act as a sort of science sink. Option 2 would be there for players who don't have the science to spend, due to bad luck perhaps, allowing them to save up for a tech they know will cost more in the mean time.

Chthon wrote:
Actually if you look at the .xml level files you will see that mob stats start at a certain strength level each floor and increase at certain points when you've opened X amounts of doors. Numbers of mobs and waves also increase as well at similar points. So yes, they do get more powerful the further you go on. This feature is implemented, and while it doesn't go on forever, each floor also does not go on forever.



On the next floor after all, they can't start off throwing 10k boss monsters at you when you open the first door. It takes a little time for the player to get set up, so the game ramps up when it thinks you should be ready, or a little before. It's up to you the player to stay ahead of the curve.



As for the Majors getting smacked down, if you haven't noticed, the higher level ones have more hp and armor. This too can be found in the .xmls I've found. This is also why LAN modules can be so valuable later on. They greatly increase the survivability of your modules. If you don't have LANs, don't put majors in rooms you fight in. Even a level 1 LAN increases defense of modules by 120% (that's 2.2x their defense value) Put someone to operate it (if you have a weak operator) and it goes even further up, though I'm not sure by how much as it's not visible in game.

Yeah, I noticed that the mob scaling happens to some extent, but my opinion is that it should happen more and in larger increments, so that you would actually need the tech. The module HP buff I didn't notice, but I thought I said that I take back my word on the module health issue anyway

Chthon wrote:
As far as just picking any tech you want all the time, this would break the game and make it far too easy. If anything, there needs to be an opportunity cost to shuffle the selection. If you don't like your options and don't want to spend time researching something you don't want, you should be forced to spend some research. Likewise if you have limited research and don't want to spend it, you should be allowed to spend some time units to shuffle it. In no way should you have to spend neither to get a new selection, otherwise you might as well just pick what you want when you want all the time.

I also think the reroll for a cost idea is good.

muhku wrote:
Glad to see I raised discussion



Please keep in mind though that majority of the suggestions I mentioned were based on the assumption that mobs (and the whole game, in general) should somehow get incrementally much tougher once the game progresses. This is just my assumption but I feel this is what the devs are going for? At least eventually... Somehow I get the feeling that farming should be made very difficult in this game. Perhaps I'm on the wrong track in some points there, but I was just stunned that I finished the game without a lot of effort when I didn't (or couldn't) care about the tech tree. I just played a game where I DID get a research stone in a pocket in the very beginning of level 3. This sort of setup makes the game a cakewalk.



If mobs would get a lot stronger, however, it would be very likely that every turn 1 or 2 of your majors will get smacked on the later levels with their current HP. Same goes for the research thingies. One thing I just realized, though, is that you can prevent destruction of majors by using items/skills, which make heros a target for all mobs. I think this is a good balance for fragile majors so I'll take back my word on that, although I still think the LAN and hero attack modules are a bad idea. Better would be if we could upgrade more HP or armor or perhaps some sort of repulsion/camouflage mechanic to the modules (mobs only attack them if no defenses or hero is present). Upgrades which affect heroes (without the use of modules) could possibly also be nice to consider.

Actually if you look at the .xml level files you will see that mob stats start at a certain strength level each floor and increase at certain points when you've opened X amounts of doors. Numbers of mobs and waves also increase as well at similar points. So yes, they do get more powerful the further you go on. This feature is implemented, and while it doesn't go on forever, each floor also does not go on forever.



On the next floor after all, they can't start off throwing 10k boss monsters at you when you open the first door. It takes a little time for the player to get set up, so the game ramps up when it thinks you should be ready, or a little before. It's up to you the player to stay ahead of the curve.



As for the Majors getting smacked down, if you haven't noticed, the higher level ones have more hp and armor. This too can be found in the .xmls I've found. This is also why LAN modules can be so valuable later on. They greatly increase the survivability of your modules. If you don't have LANs, don't put majors in rooms you fight in. Even a level 1 LAN increases defense of modules by 120% (that's 2.2x their defense value) Put someone to operate it (if you have a weak operator) and it goes even further up, though I'm not sure by how much as it's not visible in game.



After all if you are replacing a module every 4 or less turns, and it costs 25 to replace, it takes 2 level 4 industry modules 2 turns to replace it, so you really are only getting the industry from one in the end. The other might as well be what you are replacing or a LAN if you wish. The LAN would be better if there are even 2 vulnerable modules.



The lesson here: modules don't need more health. Either don't put majors where they can break, or get a LAN to protect them.

muhku wrote:
I also find it sort of strange, that mobs otherwise ignore the research artifacts, but if you have a research going on it suddenly becomes a big bad thing that needs to be eliminated. They're not that smart are they? So it must give off something. Does it start humming (all monsters hate humming right), smelling really bad, making bad jokes etc.? And why doesn't it have to be powered?







If it goes with minors too this would be a good way. A global level cap for major modules. For the minors they should be separate IMO, because there is more of them. There could be an upgrade tool, similar to the destroy tool, with which you could upgrade any module for a small ind+sci cost, once you have a basic version up and running and the level cap researched. Price for upgrading could be shown when hovering above a module.







But I do think of it that exactly the way. I actually think the game should get incrementally harder and really kill you if you get left behind in the tech for too long. That sort of thing is usually the point of a tech tree.



I also think that it's a bad idea to force you to research "things that you don't really want", because those things are useless things that don't really have a value in the game. Rather make all researchable things have some critical use that's actually needed in a certain play style. Less "mass everything you can and win" and more "think smart and maybe win". In my opinion researches should be quite expensive, but really useful in return.



I've never had so many levels in claymoars I found that level 1 of them seemed to be more than enough on the last level so why bother going even that far in the chain.



I think the claymoar should be only an area effect weapon to counter masses of weaker mobs, and the tesla weapons should be more of a one-target high-damage anti-boss weapon with auto-targeting adjusted accordingly.

As far as just picking any tech you want all the time, this would break the game and make it far too easy. If anything, there needs to be an opportunity cost to shuffle the selection. If you don't like your options and don't want to spend time researching something you don't want, you should be forced to spend some research. Likewise if you have limited research and don't want to spend it, you should be allowed to spend some time units to shuffle it. In no way should you have to spend neither to get a new selection, otherwise you might as well just pick what you want when you want all the time.



Frankly, other than not having an option to get a new set of choices at a cost, I think the system is fine. We just need more categories and options. Certain options like the prisoner prods need a minor buff to overcome late game enemy defenses (The mark 4 barely do anything at all without tear gas) And if you feel any of them are completely useless, you really aren't looking for a use. Personally I think excessive food strats should be nerfed slightly so more people are forced to try something new. After all, right now that seems to be the only strategy which can be done without any thinking on the player's part.

Glad to see I raised discussion



Please keep in mind though that majority of the suggestions I mentioned were based on the assumption that mobs, and the whole game in general, should somehow get incrementally much tougher once the game progresses. This is just my assumption but I feel (and hope) that this is what the devs are going for? At least eventually... Somehow I get the feeling that farming should be made very difficult in this game. Perhaps I'm on the wrong track in some points there, but I was just stunned that I finished the game without a lot of effort when I didn't (or couldn't) care about the tech tree. I just played a game where I DID get a research stone in a pocket in the very beginning of level 3. This sort of setup makes the game a cakewalk.



If mobs would get a lot stronger, however, it would be very likely that every turn 1 or 2 of your majors will get smacked on the later levels with their current HP. Same goes for the research thingies. One thing I just realized, though, is that you can prevent destruction of majors by using items/skills, which make heros a target for all mobs. I think this is a good balance for fragile majors so I'll take back my word on that, although I still think the LAN and hero attack modules are a bad idea. Better would be if we could upgrade more HP or armor or perhaps some sort of repulsion/camouflage mechanic to the modules so that mobs only attack them if no defenses or hero is present. Upgrades which affect heroes without the use of modules could possibly also be nice to consider.



I also find it sort of strange, that mobs otherwise ignore the research artifacts, but if you have a research going on it suddenly becomes a big bad thing that needs to be eliminated. They're not that smart are they? So it must give off something. Does it start humming (all monsters hate humming right), smelling really bad, making bad jokes etc.? And why doesn't it have to be powered?

Ail wrote:
I prettymuch agree with your initial assessment.

I also like the idea of researching a global level-cap but then having to put a little extra science-points to upgrade each individual module. Not much, just a little so you need to have some science for this. I also wouldn't necessarily limit this to major-modules. So maybe 2 Science per Level for Majors and 1 for Minors.

You might be right in not limiting it to majors. Although I think it should be something like this: A global level cap for all major modules. For the minors they should be separate IMO, because there is more of them - you would have to pick to get the researches that best suit your play style and the chances which RNG currently gives you. There could be an upgrade tool, similar to the destroy tool, with which you could upgrade any module for a small ind+sci cost, once you have a basic version up and running and the level cap researched. Price for upgrading could be shown when hovering above a module, and it should probably increase per level.



The basic versions of the modules could be made cheaper and weaker by adjusting upgrade costs and make the "IND tax" less painful. Upgraded modules would still be a pain to lose so you couldn't make them everywhere, but it would still be sensible to utilize the not-so-easily defended major slots without a huge penalty for losing them.

mattel wrote:


no way that would make it to easy to let you get what you want with out spending SCI on stuff you don't really want to shuffle the research module



and yes the claymores are weaker rank 4 in patch 2.1 91 damage and something 50-60 AE damage now patch 3.6 rank 4 41 damage and 41 AE damage weaker but still to strong than the other choices because of the AE damage i would say make the AE damage weaker or give the tesla tower a chain damage so that it hits up to 3-4 enemy with maybe a 0.2 sec stun and the laser towers reduce the armor of the enemy and the tear gas let them miss some hits so it would maybe make more sense to combine the stuff in one room than just spam claymore towers (just came up with that stuff didn't really think trough it but maybe it makes sense xD)

But I do think of it that exactly the way. I actually think the game should get incrementally harder and really kill you if you get left behind in the tech for too long. That sort of thing is usually the point of a tech tree.



I also think that it's a bad idea to force you to research "things that you don't really want", because those things are useless things that don't really have a value in the game. Rather make all researchable things have some critical use that's actually needed in a certain play style. Less "mass everything you can and win" and more "think smart and maybe win". In my opinion researches should be quite expensive, but really useful in return.



I've never had so many levels in claymoars I found that level 1 of them seemed to be more than enough on the last level so why bother going even that far in the chain.



I think the claymoar should be only an area effect weapon to counter masses of weaker mobs, and the tesla weapons should be more of a one-target high-damage anti-boss weapon with auto-targeting adjusted accordingly.

well i like some of your ideas and some i disagree greatly

muhku wrote:




I humbly suggest a few things (some) of which could be considered:



- monsters should scale up more on later levels, or something should start happening in order to increase difficulty there

- bosses anyone? some could auto-target heroes, some major modules, etc...muhku

this i agree it isn't so easy like patch 2.1 anymore (where you could keep opening doors with out stopping and you still could not lose when you had claymore towers at least level 5) but still if you just wait till the waves are over every time you should have no trouble gets boring over the time if you think about that you have to open 36 doors on level 6

muhku wrote:


- make operate less useful or provide some other similar passive skill that could be used instead - perhaps eliminate SCI and IND dependency and make passive heroes generate SCI? currently it seems to be hard to justify building a science module.muhku

well i agree with the part that IND is right now by far the best choice to get a high amount first, the stuff you can build and get from it are just to good but i don't see any reason why to take away the SCI module and let heros let getting SCI for free that will just take away one decision you HAVE to make in the earlier levels

muhku wrote:


- make major modules cheaper/sturdier (or both)muhku

why they are cheap already first 1: 9 IND, 2: 12 IND, 3: 16 IND, 4: 19 IND, 5: 22 IND, 6: 25 IND, 7: 28 IND that is cheap at least till 4 at 5 you may have already to decide that this will be worth it to build (worth=at least getting the IND back (in IND, FOOD OR SCI) till the end of the level which you needed to build it, sturdier hell no why if you build a 5th module in a choke point for 22 IND and it gets destroyed before it give you the costs back it is your fault there are already chances to keep moduls in choke points alive LAN

module (never builded them) or a item with "me first" buff (if you find one)

muhku wrote:


- make research stones indestructible during research, but in return make research take way longer AND cost more AND limit the times you can perform research on each stone, after which it blows up or something muhku

make them indestructible would say no that just would let you research every thing you want dosn't matter where you find the research modul, way longer research maybe good but that also means you have longer time to get more SCI for the next research which would make up for it again so why not just increase the the SCI needed greatly, limited times you can use it sound actually kinda good but till now there are not enough good choices for me the only really good choice is claymore tower all the time, second deff buff, than heal buff but only till rank 1 after that i don't think it is worth the SCI, main moduls is nice to get 1 more FIS each rank but it isn't really needed in my opinion. and if nothing good shows up i just research the cheapest think to shuffle the choices maybe i'm lucky and a claymore tower shows up

muhku wrote:


- if research is supposed to be hard to get, then the bonus should be somewhat substantial muhku

isn't research making the game easier substantial enough ;D

muhku wrote:


- put a cap on the amount of minor modules of the same type that can be constructed per room (encourage usefulness of researching other modules besides claymores) OR make their IND cost scale up by the amount there is in one single room muhku

think is pretty good idea but also maybe increase the IND needed for a claymore over all 11 IND for that amount of damage ? ♥♥♥♥ing cheap i would say

muhku wrote:


- remove ability to randomly upgrade FIS straight from research stones. Instead give player ability to upgrade or not upgrade EACH generator with science; level I -> Level II -> III etc. muhku

hard to say it that is good or not at least it is a way to spend some SCI finally and maybe it lead to that,that you finally have to build some more SCI module which will make the game more interesting

muhku wrote:


- perhaps retain ability to research the global level cap for all major modules; e.g. at first you couldn't upgrade them at all, until you take a "generators level II" upgrade from the stone, after which you could upgrade each generator to said level muhku

in combination with the idea before i totally agree makes SCI even more worth it

muhku wrote:


- shuffle research options between each door opened muhku

no way that would make it to easy to let you get what you want with out spending SCI on stuff you don't really want to shuffle the research module



always think about it the game is meant to be lost not to be won if you just walk trough it with out struggle it get boring like hell and you wasted your money on it



and yes the claymores are weaker rank 4 in patch 2.1 91 damage and something 50-60 AE damage now patch 3.6 rank 4 41 damage and 41 AE damage weaker but still to strong than the other choices because of the AE damage i would say make the AE damage weaker or give the tesla tower a chain damage so that it hits up to 3-4 enemy with maybe a 0.2 sec stun and the laser towers reduce the armor of the enemy and the tear gas let them miss some hits so it would maybe make more sense to combine the stuff in one room than just spam claymore towers (just came up with that stuff didn't really think trough it but maybe it makes sense xD)



LOVE the game is my most played game right now can't wait for the next patch and maybe a normal mode

I think there are many different good play styles in this game. I used to think food and industry were all that really mattered until I started my quest to beat it on Easy.



During my refinement of my technique I started to really discover how good science really is in the game and many of the uses of the other modules. While I still don't ever build more than two science makers, I will now rejoice when I have 2 easily defended artifacts as it allows me to tech up and stay ahead of the curve. Forgoing one level worth of extra food can actually pay off in the long run when you have bigger modules to bring along.



One thing to make sure to do though is look for the double upgrades. 1 to 3 or 2 to 4 is always a lot cheaper than doing each step.



The only things I would do to the research system as it stands is:

1 Increase the number of research items and categories. Right now there should be 2 major categories for the two kind of major structures: resource and combat

2 Fix the bug where if you research something to level 4, and it picks that as a research item again you get no option for that category. This can actually lock you out of any future research if you research one item from each category to 4 and get unlucky. It's happened to me.

3 Give us a way to spend 5-10 knowledge to instantly reroll what research topics are available to use.

4 Give us a way to lock one topic in so that when we research another topic, this one is guaranteed to be here when we're done.



If you do this it would greatly improve the current system giving the player a little bit of added flexibility at some cost.

I prettymuch agree with your initial assessment.

If you can grab better Food-Modules and the Claymore-Mine you are mostly set to do it.



While I don't quite agree with some of you suggestions, One of them is so good, that I'd really like to see it being considered by the Devs:



That is the cost-scaling of one minor-modules if you want to use more than one of a type per room. I'd say that is a brilliant solution to:

a) increase the usefullness of science

b) make it less relevant that there are severe balance issues among them

c) increase overall variety



I also like the idea of researching a global level-cap but then having to put a little extra science-points to upgrade each individual module. Not much, just a little so you need to have some science for this. I also wouldn't necessarily limit this to major-modules. So maybe 2 Science per Level for Majors and 1 for Minors.