ya rifles are powerful but slow to reload it balances it out no need to get crazy and go stealth this is not really the kind of game that involves stealth lol

The4gotNdeath wrote:
well the way i see it science is pretty important anyways, so at least if you don't have any research options you like you could put your science into your gear

If that is the case, then using Industry would make much more sense, since you know, industry is basically metal, gears, and other metal essentials. I could see it being use the same way as Food.

Food already is used for leveling up, and healing, and Industry is used to build modules and generators, and it could be used to upgrade equipment. Science well, as far as I know it only allows the player to upgrade, and unlock modules and generators, so it could also be used to upgrade active skills.

DaveyAlcala@live.com wrote:
I could see that being a good idea, but it would mean that the player would have to collect materials to upgrade equipment, not sure how that would play out.

well the way i see it science is pretty important anyways, so at least if you don't have any research options you like you could put your science into your gear

The4gotNdeath wrote:
how would you guys feel if we had the ability to forge / upgrade our weapons manually instead of relying on random drops / merchants (maybe use science has the building materials?)

I could see that being a good idea, but it would mean that the player would have to collect materials to upgrade equipment, not sure how that would play out.

Mysterarts wrote:
Keep calm gentlemen



There are good ideas here!

When I read the OP, the main issue was the "can shoot enemies in different rooms" because the entire combat system is based on the rooms (technically).

But you find another interesting ideas for a sniper hero!

So if I gave Sniper the following level ups how would you feel about it?



1) Base start, no abilities



2) Extreme Focus (active) - For the next 8 seconds Sniper has a 50% chance to do double damage on attacks. 3 door cool down



3) Recycle (passive) - Defeated monsters have a chance to drop science



4) No new ability



5) Operate



6) I'm Right Behind You (active) - For the next 6 seconds mobs will not focus Sniper as long as there are other heroes in the room. 3 door cool down



7) No new ability



8) Headshot (passive) - Sniper's attacks have a 2.5% chance to instantly kill target. This effect is twice as likely while Extreme Focus is active

DaveyAlcala@live.com wrote:
I never said I didn't like variety and new creative ideas. If you look at previous comments you will see people complaining about the "complicated" need of creating a new weapon type. Personally, I always thought the game could use a new sort of weapon system.

A more specific, ranging from short swords, long swords, spears, blunt weapons, two-handed blunt weapons, one handed guns, and two-handed guns. Sadly this may not happen. But how will making a new weapon type (riffles) change the game? Like I said before, Gork uses two-handed guns, which aren't that different from riffles (While shooting a riffle you have to use 2 hands) so what will this new weapon type offer? I am beginning to think you didn't read all of the comments and just decided to read what you wanted to read.



Personally, a riffle would be balanced in this game if it had low speed for shooting, but to compensate, it would have strong shooting power. Now an automatic riffle would be the opposite, high firing speed, but low fire power. Now, why do we need a new weapon type for this? This stats can be easily changed for a two-handed gun. Also, about your comment on you wanting more weapon types, new active and passive skills and more variety, well, again, I doubt you even read my previous comments on the matter, I discussed on how a possible Sniper character would have NEW lore, NEW passive and active skills, NEW weapon stats, and NEW character stats. I guess I don't want any variety uh?

how would you guys feel if we had the ability to forge / upgrade our weapons manually instead of relying on random drops / merchants (maybe use science has the building materials?)

Mysterarts wrote:
Keep calm gentlemen



There are good ideas here!

When I read the OP, the main issue was the "can shoot enemies in different rooms" because the entire combat system is based on the rooms (technically).

But you find another interesting ideas for a sniper hero!

I have to say, this debate has started out a lot of great ideas, maybe there could be more characters that we can come up with, I might even start making pixel art to represent the characters too

Still like my idea of slapping a near-sighted "sniper" with a shotgun myself. The ludicrous nature of it all would completely fit in this game.

Keep calm gentlemen



There are good ideas here!

When I read the OP, the main issue was the "can shoot enemies in different rooms" because the entire combat system is based on the rooms (technically).

But you find another interesting ideas for a sniper hero!

Chthon wrote:
Why isn't there a need for a new weapon type? Do you like having no variety in a game? Do you like doing the same thing over and over the same way every time? I don't. There needs to be new weapon types, new actives, new passives, more variety in general. Otherwise the game will get very old very fast.

I never said I didn't like variety and new creative ideas. If you look at previous comments you will see people complaining about the "complicated" need of creating a new weapon type. Personally, I always thought the game could use a new sort of weapon system.

A more specific, ranging from short swords, long swords, spears, blunt weapons, two-handed blunt weapons, one handed guns, and two-handed guns. Sadly this may not happen. But how will making a new weapon type (riffles) change the game? Like I said before, Gork uses two-handed guns, which aren't that different from riffles (While shooting a riffle you have to use 2 hands) so what will this new weapon type offer? I am beginning to think you didn't read all of the comments and just decided to read what you wanted to read.



Personally, a riffle would be balanced in this game if it had low speed for shooting, but to compensate, it would have strong shooting power. Now an automatic riffle would be the opposite, high firing speed, but low fire power. Now, why do we need a new weapon type for this? This stats can be easily changed for a two-handed gun. Also, about your comment on you wanting more weapon types, new active and passive skills and more variety, well, again, I doubt you even read my previous comments on the matter, I discussed on how a possible Sniper character would have NEW lore, NEW passive and active skills, NEW weapon stats, and NEW character stats. I guess I don't want any variety uh?

DaveyAlcala@live.com wrote:
There is no need to create a new weapon type, there is no need to add "stealth" to the game, balancing this character out would happen, if needed to, and the character's passive, and active skills can be made to fit into the game's lore. I see no problems, on why this character concept can't be done.

Why isn't there a need for a new weapon type? Do you like having no variety in a game? Do you like doing the same thing over and over the same way every time? I don't. There needs to be new weapon types, new actives, new passives, more variety in general. Otherwise the game will get very old very fast.

There is no need to create a new weapon type, there is no need to add "stealth" to the game, balancing this character out would happen, if needed to, and the character's passive, and active skills can be made to fit into the game's lore. I see no problems, on why this character concept can't be done.

Whats a game with guns in it if we don't have a sniper character right? My thoughts are as follows: 1) Sniper should have highest base damage of current (and maybe future) heroes. 2) To counter balance his damage he should have lowest base Health, Armor, and Slowest base attack speed (bolt action sniper). 3) I think he/she should have a unique ability (passive) where they can shoot enemies in different rooms as long as that room is within Sniper's line of sight (rooms that are directly horizontal/vertical to Sniper's room, are powered, and not blocked by closed doors)



would greatly appreciate thoughts on such a hero, so that this hero could potentially make it in game.

The4gotNdeath wrote:
lol i apologize for not being very artistic, and as for a full set skills i cant say that i worked that out yet because i'm not really sure on what amplitude deems as "balanced" or "fair". But what i do know is that Amplitude actually cares about what their fans want, so I thought it be best to take a number from them and start with an idea that the community can build on instead of flaming me as overpowered or cheesy. I have a few skills in mind and i guess ill make a later post to give a more detailed hero



EDIT: btw i loved your hero lore for the sniper character

I have worked as a pixel artist for years now, so creating characters with their own lore is kinda part of my job haha, now I see people here saying that this "class" would be awful and terrible. Why? Because creating a new weapon type would be hard. Okay, let's review what we have for now okay?

Spears, Swords, Hand Guns, Two-handed guns. Isn't a riffle a two handed gun? I mean, I have shot guns a few times and I have shot plenty of rifles, and I am pretty sure that we can make a Rifle with the Two handed set, and for those that don't know what characters use the Two-handed guns are well, Gork is your best example.

Secondly, balancing this character, this I find it to be tricky, but doable, the devs have already made two characters that are completely unique, Golgy, a female character that uses no weapons, and Skroig, a male necrophage that uses no armor. How hard would it be to create another character that uses two-handed guns, a unique lore (probably what I gave as an example), and with it's own stats that I am sure the devs can balance out. This game is still in alpha, the devs are learning as they are working, so making a new character that just so happens to wield a riffle isn't too hard, and balancing him/her out would take time yes, but it's not impossible, guys, seriously, take the idea of "Balancing would be hard" out of your heads, this game is far from being a beta, so balancing this character out wouldn't be a task that could ruin the game's progress.

And finally, what is so bad about this character? I don't see him/her as a new class, I just see them as a new character that has it's own back story, and unique passive and active skills. Yes, snipers like to hide, and shoot targets from a distance. But who is to say this guy/gal has to? Maybe he/she will only attack hostiles in the same room, but at a slow speed (reloading a riffle does take some time) but once the shot is fired, a large amount of power is generated, that alone sounds pretty unique to me. All of the issues that I have read so far CAN be fixed.

The4gotNdeath wrote:
the concept i had in mind for this hero was one that can shoot monsters down hallways as they walked towards your choke points, and being able to fight monsters in your choke point rooms without actually being in the room to be aggro'd (essentially making him similar to a turret that you would build in hallways to weaken mobs b4 your heros fight them). As Chthon mentioned we already have had heroes who are the only users of their weapons so i wouldnt say that creating a new weapon class would be a bad idea.

Unfortunately I do not think the ability to have a hero able to shoot outside the room he currently resides in with our current game mechanics. I could be wrong about that though. However only the developers know for sure. It certainly would take a lot of balancing if it were possible. Then there is the added problem of does the game even know how to determine if he has line of sight?

Lynx_gnt wrote:
I’m not a big fan of this idea. And I have a few reasons why (everything below is just my opinion):



1) That hero will require creating the whole new weapons type (rifles/sniper rifles). Making it only for one hero, who can wield it? Definitely, not a good decision. So it will lead to creating the new hero class with it unique weapon. That requires a lot of work. Well, I’m not saying that DotE doesn’t need more classes, but all of them must be precisely balanced (not to be overpowered or underpowered).



2) Let’s look at sniper class from other game: Risk of Rain. He has everything that TS said: the highest base damage, low base health and extremely slow attack speed. And where we could see this class in the characters tier list? At the bottom of it. Ok, what’s the problem with this class? High base damage != high “effective” damage. If you shoot at monster, which have ~200 HP, and your weapon deals ~300 damage, you just waste about 30% of your DPS (if game engine doesn’t redirect it to another enemy). Overkilling enemies doesn’t give you anything. +lack of mob control abilities



3) Making this class a “glass cannon” is pretty dangerous, that means he doesn’t have any capabilities to hold a swarm of monsters, even with good minor modules support. Only another hero with “me first” ability. But maybe this is not so bad, if game requires good micro skills.

the concept i had in mind for this hero was one that can shoot monsters down hallways as they walked towards your choke points, and being able to fight monsters in your choke point rooms without actually being in the room to be aggro'd (essentially making him similar to a turret that you would build in hallways to weaken mobs b4 your heros fight them). As Chthon mentioned we already have had heroes who are the only users of their weapons so i wouldnt say that creating a new weapon class would be a bad idea.

Lynx_gnt wrote:
I’m not a big fan of this idea. And I have a few reasons why (everything below is just my opinion):



1) That hero will require creating the whole new weapons type (rifles/sniper rifles). Making it only for one hero, who can wield it? Definitely, not a good decision. So it will lead to creating the new hero class with it unique weapon. That requires a lot of work. Well, I’m not saying that DotE doesn’t need more classes, but all of them must be precisely balanced (not to be overpowered or underpowered).



2) Let’s look at sniper class from other game: Risk of Rain. He has everything that TS said: the highest base damage, low base health and extremely slow attack speed. And where we could see this class in the characters tier list? At the bottom of it. Ok, what’s the problem with this class? High base damage != high “effective” damage. If you shoot at monster, which have ~200 HP, and your weapon deals ~300 damage, you just waste about 30% of your DPS (if game engine doesn’t redirect it to another enemy). Overkilling enemies doesn’t give you anything. +lack of mob control abilities



3) Making this class a “glass cannon” is pretty dangerous, that means he doesn’t have any capabilities to hold a swarm of monsters, even with good minor modules support. Only another hero with “me first” ability. But maybe this is not so bad, if game requires good micro skills.

1) There's nothing saying that this will remain the only character to use this class of weapon. Already we have Gort who is the only one to use machine guns, and until .3.5 Opbot was the only spear user. Hopefully we have lots of time to as more characters. Furthermore I am formulating a request to "karma" balance the items you get, so the more items you can't use, the more likely it is to get one you can use weighted towards slots you haven't filled yet. A system like this already balances good and bad events when you open doors.



2) His attack delay is offset by the fact that he does extra damage to mobs around him. This makes him like a souped up mortar with LOWER attack delay. Remember, they fire every 2 seconds to his 1.3. Furthermore high attack delay does not need to stay there. There are several items that you can equip already that improve attack delay. A combat shotgun style item for example would help, as well as "The thing." All of these things would help with his dps for single targets, and greatly help with his multi target dps.



As far as your fear of overkill, an 80% attack boosted Gort with a 99gig still takes 2-3 shots to kill the enemies that you fight towards the end game. Mind you I'm talking about full attack cycles where he fires 3 rounds and you see the HP drop 3 times. You're fear of overkill at this point is not likely.



3) Risk of Rain, a game I love, is a completely different animal. There it requires player skill to avoid damage and take your shots. Here it simply requires planning. Further more, another example of the frailness I'm envisioning is already in the game. His name is Opbot. If you haven't discovered yet, he dies quite easily, even at high levels. He also has fairly low damage, and mediocre speed. His strength is his high wit and his ability to operate/repair better than anyone else. However if you have a few dust generators and autodocs he can survive quite a bit by himself.



Finally, this is a game currently in alpha. This is the stage when new ideas are introduced, added, and then balanced. Simply denying a new idea because you are afraid of the balance problems is contraindicated at this point. If we encounter overkill situations, or discover he's needs a major buff, we can still do that. Right now it's better to play with the concepts and see what we can come up with. After all, the more variety this game has at the end, the more replay-ability it will have as well.

I’m not a big fan of this idea. And I have a few reasons why (everything below is just my opinion):



1) That hero will require creating the whole new weapons type (rifles/sniper rifles). Making it only for one hero, who can wield it? Definitely, not a good decision. So it will lead to creating the new hero class with it unique weapon. That requires a lot of work. Well, I’m not saying that DotE doesn’t need more classes, but all of them must be precisely balanced (not to be overpowered or underpowered).



2) Let’s look at sniper class from other game: Risk of Rain. He has everything that TS said: the highest base damage, low base health and extremely slow attack speed. And where we could see this class in the characters tier list? At the bottom of it. Ok, what’s the problem with this class? High base damage != high “effective” damage. If you shoot at monster, which have ~200 HP, and your weapon deals ~300 damage, you just waste about 30% of your DPS (if game engine doesn’t redirect it to another enemy). Overkilling enemies doesn’t give you anything. +lack of mob control abilities



3) Making this class a “glass cannon” is pretty dangerous, that means he doesn’t have any capabilities to hold a swarm of monsters, even with good minor modules support. Only another hero with “me first” ability. But maybe this is not so bad, if game requires good micro skills.

Ugh, ok, well fine. If we're actually going to call him a sniper in a game where you only fight inside rooms and can't actually hide, particularly one where absurdity is the rule, lets take his rifle, and replace it with a shotgun, due to his "poor eyesight." I'm thinking move this more towards "Incredibly Myopic" for the luls.



His base damage will be well above average but high fire delay (1.3), with about 20% damage splash on nearby targets. He will have low base HP and defense making him a glass cannon. His movement speed will be slightly above average.



His abilities: (Due to poor eyesight, cannot operate complex machinery. However he can repair as apparently he's mastered the art of kicking things back to working order)

Level 1 Necrophilia

Level 2 "Critical Eye...Problems"- He will start picking random targets and firing, friendly fire enabled on splash only, -.5 fire delay +10 attack damage Splash Damage multiplied by 1.5, 6 seconds 3 door CD

"A good sniper must have great vision, but for (Sniper's name) having no glasses means a random shooting"

Alternate: "Everyone knows a sniper must look cool, calm, and collected, even if you can't see what's on the other end of your gun."

Note: I have removed the targeting friends from this, instead if he has a shotgun with splash, now he can accidentally hit them with the improved splash.

Note2: Splash doesn't just hit friendly heroes but friendly modules as well.

Level 4 "Non Descript" which makes it so that he can not have more enemies attacking him than any other hero in the room.

Level 5 Repair

Level 6 "Right Between The Eyes" - Sniper will pick the highest health target in the room and instantly kill it dealing normal splash damage to targets around it. 3 door CD

"You can't call yourself a good sniper if you can't get a good head shot... even if you can't actually make out their eyes."

Having any active skill that requires there to be only one target, and the hero being alone severely hampers it's effectiveness. This makes it feel very weak, and active abilities need to feel strong. I removed it, and now he'll target the strongest enemy he can find.

Level 7 "Them jukes" - There is a 10% chance that any enemy attack directed at this hero will instead hit a nearby module chosen at random. If there are no modules in this room, this ability fails.

"Some call it dodging, some call it quick feet, some even call it drunk fu. He will always hope they never realize it's just plain clumsiness and dumb luck."

DaveyAlcala@live.com wrote:
Okay, I can dig this idea, though I have to say, when, I saw this post I expected a lot more, maybe some artwork, an actual back story, some skills and passive skills that match with this character's lore and more details like that.



Personally, I could see a slender, tall man with a riffle on it's back, the man wears glasses with a ridiculous hair style. This Sniper is cut above the others, but as any other sniper, he has one weakness, being spotted, now that isn't too hard to do is it? Well it is for this fellow, for he is allergic to Dust, just the smallest amount of it will cause a strong allergic reaction forcing the Sniper to sneeze uncontrollably, allowing for his enemies and targets to spot him.



Active Skills

Critical Eye..Problems- "A good sniper must have great vision, but for (Sniper's name) having no glasses means a random shooting"

This skill allows for the Sniper to take of his glasses and shoot at anything that moves in the room, each shot will cause extra damage, the one problem? He may shoot allies.

Right Between The Eyes- "You can't call yourself a good sniper if you can't get a good head shot"

This is a one-one-one skill (Meaning that this will only work if the Sniper is alone in the room with just one enemy with him) causing a critical damage shot that will lead tho a 1 hit kill, the downside is that this skill takes 5 doors to be opened so it can be reused.



This are just mere examples for a Sniper character

lol i apologize for not being very artistic, and as for a full set skills i cant say that i worked that out yet because i'm not really sure on what amplitude deems as "balanced" or "fair". But what i do know is that Amplitude actually cares about what their fans want, so I thought it be best to take a number from them and start with an idea that the community can build on instead of flaming me as overpowered or cheesy. I have a few skills in mind and i guess ill make a later post to give a more detailed hero



EDIT: btw i loved your hero lore for the sniper character

Okay, I can dig this idea, though I have to say, when, I saw this post I expected a lot more, maybe some artwork, an actual back story, some skills and passive skills that match with this character's lore and more details like that.



Personally, I could see a slender, tall man with a riffle on it's back, the man wears glasses with a ridiculous hair style. This Sniper is cut above the others, but as any other sniper, he has one weakness, being spotted, now that isn't too hard to do is it? Well it is for this fellow, for he is allergic to Dust, just the smallest amount of it will cause a strong allergic reaction forcing the Sniper to sneeze uncontrollably, allowing for his enemies and targets to spot him.



Active Skills

Critical Eye..Problems- "A good sniper must have great vision, but for (Sniper's name) having no glasses means a random shooting"

This skill allows for the Sniper to take of his glasses and shoot at anything that moves in the room, each shot will cause extra damage, the one problem? He may shoot allies.

Right Between The Eyes- "You can't call yourself a good sniper if you can't get a good head shot"

This is a one-one-one skill (Meaning that this will only work if the Sniper is alone in the room with just one enemy with him) causing a critical damage shot that will lead tho a 1 hit kill, the downside is that this skill takes 5 doors to be opened so it can be reused.



This are just mere examples for a Sniper character

The4gotNdeath wrote:
in dungeon of the endless enemies know exactly where you are at all times anyway, so even if the sniper had ways to get in cover or stealth it would be pointless. And if you are looking for accurate realism i think games like arma 3 would be more your style.

Even there, not really. The actual life and actions of a sniper are very boring 98% of the time, with only 2% of the time having any action at all. We're talking hours or days getting in position, learning routes into and out of an area, and waiting for the right moment to take a shot. We're talking about missions like, "We know that there will be enemy movement in this area in the near future. You need to prevent them from passing through for the next 5 days." Then the first 3 days there is no one to fight. I'm just over snipers in video games at all. Sniping is really a very meticulous and boring job. It's not fun.



Also snipers aren't squad troops. They really have no place in them. This is something that disgusted me about XCom: Enemy Unknown. A squad advertises the presence of soldiers in the area, which is a detriment to the sniper. No, snipers are loners, or at best, work in pairs with one spotting for the other. When they go into a mission, they have the knowledge that if they are caught, they probably aren't coming home.



Not trying to belittle you either, but I just don't like the fact that games glorify snipers like they do. Most of the time these snipers actually only exist because they severely nerf the range of other weapons to compensate for the closer boundries. In the end, it just feels artificial to me. Plus, like I said, in this game, where you can only attack what's in the same room as you, sniping really doesn't make sense. I don't want them nerfing other character types any further just to make snipers have a role. It already doesn't feel like range weapons have any range at all as it is, since most combats are in melee range regardless.



Edit: That being said, I'm all for a glass cannon hero, but only once some of the other game play mechanics have all the wrinkles ironed out. They would need some sort of ability which reduces the likelihood of enemies to target them.



Edit 2: Just thought about how the ability could work. Once they have this passive, they cannot be the target of more enemies than any other hero. They aren't invulnerable when other heroes are present, but he will always have fewer monsters attacking him than anyone else. However it'd be nice if a certain new enemy type could ignore this mechanic as well as the "Me First" mechanic just to change things up from time to time

in dungeon of the endless enemies know exactly where you are at all times anyway, so even if the sniper had ways to get in cover or stealth it would be pointless. And if you are looking for accurate realism i think games like arma 3 would be more your style.

I'm somewhat against the ideas of snipers in video games. Games lack the range necessary to make snipers worth while, and belittle the skill or stealth involved in taking out your target without being seen.



In Dungeon of the Endless in particular, they are a poor fit. You only at most fire across a single room. There is no cover to conceal them so every enemy knows exactly where the shot came from and can go for him.



A typical special forces sniper has to move into position to take a single shot with out being seen, or anyone around their target knowing where the shot came from. This prevents retaliation from the enemy. It is also a process that could take days, and usually is a position close to or over a mile away from the target. Considering that modern G.I. rifle effective ranges are about half a kilometer or about 1/3 a mile, there really isn't a reason for a sniper in most games. The distances involved are still within rifle range.