I still stand by my idea (while the Response Team concept is neat, I feel it kinda gets too far off from the point of DotE)... Here's a simpler (more comprehensible) version of my idea (stated on page 2).

Co-Op

1.) Two to Four players. If two players; each starts with one random hero and can recruit one more additional hero per person. If four players; Each gets one random hero.

2.) The amount of players = The bigger and more difficult the dungeon becomes. (With two players being a decent-sized, mid-difficulty dungeon and four being much more vast and difficult)

3.) Shared resources EXCEPT for food.

4.) If a player finds a blue-print, it is shared with everyone. If a player finds an item, however, only they receive it.

5.) It should be the exact same gameplay as it is in single player.

6.) Should a player's hero die in four player, they should just have to wait until the other players recruit another hero found in a dungeon. (this is especially punishing in later floors, since they will have to level quick or die)

7.) More mobs of monsters.

8.) With four people exploring the dungeon, more doors can be opened at a much faster rate, which can lead to frantic situations when two (or even all four) heroes open doors with swarms of creatures awaiting them.

9.) Food should not be shared, since if it is shared there will always be the player who uses it on himself/herself when an ally needs it more. Plus this would allow for heroes to balance more and level equally.

10.) Big boss creatures spawning in along with randomized events will certainly add twists to every play-through.



I believe this game can become a prime example of Co-Op with friends done right. Dungeon-crawling and defending your crystal with a group of buddies in a beautiful, deadly, and never-ending dungeon will definitely be something to brag about on the store page!

I'm digging the co-op Response Team, meet in the middle idea though I agree there'd need to be some interactive mechanics along the way.



I do feel like there ought to be a final end-game run after the two teams meet - either back through the area cleared by the RT (but with some twists like room cave-ins & re-routing) or through a boss dungeon or something. I envision the scene in LotR where they knock the bucket down the well in Moria. Up until the teams meet up, they were only fighting the local sentries. After they meet up, the alarm goes out and the danger level / horde gets dialed up or becomes a continuous wave.



Or... once everyone gets the power crystal back to the RT's ship, it needs to be installed while a few real-time waves of enemies attack?

The only issue I have with the Response Team co-op is that how would defenses be implemented? What are you really defending? Unless the RT lands their ship and needs the power crystal of the wrecked team to escape, THAT would make plenty of sense, but at the same time, RT wouldn't really need to defend anything until the end when they try to get the crystal to the ship.. Or am I just over-thinking things? I just think making a four player version of what exists (one person controls one hero, you can read the whole idea up above) would suffice and make for a great co-op experience. What group of friends doesn't want to endlessly dungeon crawl, level up, get loot, place defenses and fight swarms of foes, while trying to escape with the crystal? I think that's the way to go..

I would suggest that, on the way down, the response team is simply defending themselves. They don't have the ability to power rooms and, as such, they are getting constant large monster waves with no automated defenses. Their strategy will be about laying traps and flares to create chokepoints and cover their rear/flanks.



On the way back out, after they meet in the middle, they could be required to take a different route due to a cave in or some other catastrophe (as an excuse to generate new levels).



Monster numbers, speed, and damage could be increased at this point, since the teams can now work together.

Anosognos wrote:
I would suggest that, on the way down, the response team is simply defending themselves. They don't have the ability to power rooms and, as such, they are getting constant large monster waves with no automated defenses. Their strategy will be about laying traps and flares to create chokepoints and cover their rear/flanks.



On the way back out, after they meet in the middle, they could be required to take a different route due to a cave in or some other catastrophe (as an excuse to generate new levels).



Monster numbers, speed, and damage could be increased at this point, since the teams can now work together.

I like the alternative route. So you got this response team gunning their way down and attracting bunches of mob attention. When they meet the survivors, and see that they have valuable cargo (the Crystal) that's also attracting monsters, what would they do? Go back through the areas they just ran through, knowing the mobs were swarming after them that way? Or would they try for an alternate route to get back to the surface?

It's be pretty cool if coop featured two (or more) players that each start at different spots on a large map, control their own crystal, heroes and dust separately.



Spawns and door openings could be done on a timer, where you'd have to pick a door to open, but it will only open and spawn mobs when the timer ticks down to zero (every 5 minutes or whatever). This would keep all the players in sync. You eventually link up with the other player, but each person lights their own rooms with their own dust (colour coded to the different players to make it clear), with the ability to leapfrog over the other player's lit rooms and extend your reach.

My expectations before buying DotE were that the game would feature directly controlable Heroes through wasd keys with active abilities.

Multiplayer in that case would have been pretty easy doable - each player controls a hero and probably both can build defenses

with shared Resources and tradable loot. Since this is not the case and the game is centered around less micromanagement and

more "casual"-friendly mechanics I spent the last days thinking about how multiplayer could be implementet in a way that would

mean the most fun to me. Since I´m not a guy that loves to compete against his friends I will try to focus on my expectations/ideas for a

Coop-Mode and I will do this in a "stream of conscious" manner that reflect my thoughts on the matter and allows discussion rather than

giving just a fixed opinion.



Let me start with the first and biggest decision: seperate bases vs. a single base.

Seperate bases would involve a sort of competition because each player would try to open more doors than another player

to eventually get more loot - a concept that wouldn´t feel like coop, more like a versus-mode, even if the players would

eventually try to help each other defending their individual bases and getting the chrystal to the exit. Each dungeon also has

to be significantly larger in order to "hold" a certain number of player bases. In addition the lore of the game would feel akward

with an increasing number of ships that are simultaneously crashing on the planet.



Therefore in my opinion their should only be one base that is shared among a maximum number of two to four players.

Firstly I tried to imagine how multiplayer would look like if each player could build defenses and control a certain number

of heroes depending on the maximum number of players. In this scenario in a two player game the host and the client would

control two heroes each, where in a game with three players the host would control two heroes and the other players only one.

This would tie certain heros to the players and would increase the immersion for each player because everyone has "their" avatar

whilst playing. Their own center of attention that has to be taken care of. But this would mean that for a three player game

there must be a group of three starting heroes and therefore each monster wave that would spawn after opening a door must

be significantly larger depending on the number of players. If the Devs want to hold onto the concept of only two starting heroes

therefore the concept of a coop multiplayer like I am imagining here must involve that each player can control every hero

and each player can control building and researching.



But wheres the fun in such a case? Planning, building and commanding heros would involve more communication between

players but also the relatively "simple" gameplay would be shared. In a single player game I have to command my heros

and build my defense lines which actually don´t involve much "work". Pacing of the game is pretty relaxing where only

bad planning and certain rng elements (whats behind the door?) determine the outcome of a game session. This wouldn´t

change with more players involved, so there is nothing that would be added to the game while playing coop.

The relatively few actions you can make are even split amongst the players and the only good argument for coop

would be the communication aspect. Coop would basically mean that someone is "looking over my shoulder" (through a

seperate monitor) and also can make a mouse click or two. Pretty lame in my opinion. This could be changed a bit if

one player has the exclusive right to control food production, one energy production, one research and one defenses

while control of heroes is shared. But still in this case the mechanics are shared and therefore limited. Coop would feel "cut"

in comparison to the single player experience.



This basically brings me back to the first point: It seems that proper Multiplayer must be centered around differend starting bases.

I could imagine that there is a "Versus mode" where each player has their own resources, loot, enemies and chrystals where

at the end of a dungeon points determine which player has "won" that level. In a real coop experience this has to be altered.



In my opinion there should be seperate chrystals but in order to advance into a new dungeon each player´s chrystal has to

be brought to the exit. In order to achieve this every player has to help other players with tradable resources, loot and

also with their heroes. Trading loot can only be done if Heroes share a room together, where energy and food can only be

traded if the bases of players are connected through energised rooms. I would also suggest that when a player

opens a door that players base is attacked with a larger enemy wave but still the other players are also being attacked.

This would force players to plan their actions together and also would put pressure on the whole group without the need

for clear "rounds". If players can handle it, they can open multiple doors which results in more loot.

At some point of the game each seperate base will be connected with the base of another player which allows for choke

points that can be defended together. Still some already mentioned problems would exist, but at least this a basic idea

I can imagine for a fun multiplayer experience that would really add something to the game.

I think a coop mode will be better. Each player has his own hero (random choosen) and the ressources are shared beetween all the heroes. Every opened door, ressources are increased, but monsters are a little stronger because this is a coop.

Coop mode - two teams, split resources, turn-based - each turn each player chooses which door should be opened.

Basic ship layout is known. One team has to go "up", the other "down". The main crystal (on the engineering bay) is broken and needs to be replaced (although works like the usual one). Here is where one team starts. The other starts in the cockpit, with spare crystal is. Obviously, spare crystal needs to be delivered to the engeneering bay.

Once that it is done, a crewmember needs to get back into cockpit (as the crystal is not there, none could have stayed there alone due to swarm of enemies, it is time, when whole crew of both teams need to go together at all times).

Now where tactics come into mind - opening doors leading straight to the objective will not give you much dust or sciece or food. You get the point. But opening side doors will provide you with those things, slots, items and stuff. So both teams will need to find ballance between opening side doors and main ones, to maintains survivability and still be able to connect before waves of enemies will become too big.



This is the idea. There is variability in strategies, requires both to work together and make decisions together and yet both teams have slightly different roles.

I think multiplayer can function in a manner similar to the Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War II series. Each player controls up to 2 units. Multiplayer has to be limited to two players in my opinion for DotE. Here's why:



1) The game consists of too many resource mechanics to have four players with a character limit of 4. Some of the players would be stuck standing at industry or food generators and wouldn't actively be playing.

2) Allowing two characters per player allows for a higher level of strategy and cooperation. Player 1 could focus his stationary Wit based unit on the chokepoint where the majority of defensive turrets are, while exploring to the west with their mobile unit. The player 2 could focus their stationary unit on industry so that the capacity to recover from a big wave is always available, whilst exploring east with their mobile unit. Using whatever form of communication, they can call for help or reconvene at the choke point to team up for defense.

3) Expanding the number of characters allowed in a match would mean completely rebalancing the mechanics of the game.

4) This is the big one since the game is based on "endless" ideology, it seems a little rough to play a match and then quit when a buddy has to go and not play until they come back. You can do a join and drop system where the host can invite someone to join their currently running match at any given point.



Those reasons make the most sense to me.

CO-OP



Love the idea of just playing with a friend.

I'd say. each starts with one random starting from the same ship. play as normal. Honestly it'll be enjoyable just to go deeper into the dungeon with a friend. (and if there are only 8 levels planned. I hope there's a difficulty setting so that there is more replay value or even a horde mode)



How to handle getting the 3rd and 4th hero

When one guy finds a hero. they can decide who hires him based on which player interacts with the found hero and makes the transaction of 25-30 food. Then that player has his 2nd hero slot used. then when they come across another hero the other player with a free hero slot can pick him up.



I'd say keep it simple so that anyone will get it!



Versus!



Race to the finish

Dungeon starts, both players start at bottom left and right corners, Exit is in the center top(revealed). Dungeons are random but mirrored so that both players cant say they were at any kind of advantage/disadvantage. Race to the finish



2v2 Tug o War

Rooms can be found with beacons captured rooms produce 10 points per round controlled.

Rooms take 1 round to be considered controlled.

Rooms can be deactivated and turned into a capture point for the other team by successfully staying in the room or building a device for some tech/science for 2 rounds.

To make this work.

Both teams start with a limited supply of tech/science to disable enemy points

There are no monsters and it takes 1 turn to move from room to room.

Each room lights up as your player enters and dims when you exit.

You can only see your location and your partners location

Each player can make 1 move per round.

First team to 100 points wins

Now. What if 2 players come into the same room at once?!

Engagement Time!! Its more like a who gets a knock out punch first. engage and both players roll a d20 until one player has a higher number.

Winning player gets to leave the room.

Losing player gets KOd for 1 round (room goes dim so you cannot see where the other player went)

all heroes have even stats in this mode.



These game modes are just what I think could be a really fun addition to DOTE.

Thanks for reading

I'd love to see a sort of horde mode, where you stay on one floor with one or two other players in separate rooms with separate heroes, and waves of gradually increasing strength attack every 4 or 5 minutes.

I would really really like to see a head to head capture the flag (crystal?) mode. I think that would make the MP far more stellar than only a co-op mode. leveling up that carries over would be cool too. I think capturing the other teams crystal would be the funnest and easiest to implement pvp mode there could be. Each team starts with an exit directly behind their crystal and they need to get the other teams crystal and make it back to their own exit. Death is permanent and teams start even and people get to pick their characters beforehand.

Darkbrady wrote:


I figure it'd be a 2 player co-op only, as 4 players may very well end in too many "waiting around doing nothing" sessions.

Well, this could easily be avoided if (as I stated above in my post) the dungeon's difficulty and size varied based on how many players are in the game, two players being the lower of the spectrum and four players being the more difficult and most expansive... The bigger the dungeon, the more defenses to set, enemies to fight, and most importantly, doors to open. I see where you're coming from, but if done right, it will be awesome.

Got to say I would be deeply unimpressed with any sort of versus mode, but if that's all I was offered, then I'd just play Single Player. This is exactly what happened with X-COM: Enemy Unknown, I found there was no co-op, only versus mode and so I happily played the SP over and over.



Sure it'd be a bit easier in a turn-based game, but really co-op in this game would not be hard. Just have no pause feature at all, or a 1/2 majority pause system, where if 2 or more people hit 'Space' the game pauses. Or anyone can pause any time. Yes, very open to trolling were it online match-up but show me a game you can't troll in! Good luck creating a troll-free Co-op, team or versus game. Just don't play with dick-heads and have a happy life.



Co-op. I will gladly buy a 4-pack of the game and gift my tightest buddies a sweet indie Roguelike and start kicking some doors down. Don't take the easy route, go Co-op!

Multiplayer should add additional layers of complexity to the game--not reduce and refract the complexity. If multiplayer is designed to reproduce the same mechanics used in the single player game, then:



1) debates over resource management could slow down the game experience. Even if food isn't shared, the issue of where to build modules/defenses could become a bogged down haggling experience, with one player arguing "x" module should be built for reasons "1, 2 and 3," while a second player wants "y" module built for reasons "4 and 5". Even if all resources are tracked independently, the same issue still occurs: the question of "who should be allowed to build the next module/decide what happens in this room" becomes a major point of contention that takes away from the survivor/tower defense features. I can see how this kind of haggling could be an interesting dynamic, but if different players have different ideas on how to play, the game could become a deadlock like the American House of Representatives.



2) Controlling only one hero reduces the complexity of the game. Part of the tension comes from knowing where to place the right character at the right time. If we're only in charge of one hero, our roles become fairly self-explanatory--if we're playing a high wit character, we're parking on a module in between doors. If we're playing Gork, we're opening doors and soloing dungeons. Defending against multiple waves of monsters is reduced to two players agreeing to defend the Northern and Eastern fronts, and two players agreeing to defend the Southern and Western fronts of each dungeon, and to plan their defenses accordingly.



3) opening multiple doors at the same time: in single player, opening the next door is the kairic moment. You're shaping your experience by choosing which door to open. You design the dungeon as you go, creating chokepoints and strongholds and fall back positions as best you can with the rooms you've revealed. If every player is trying to do that at the same time, the tension of the moment is lost--no player can fully invest in the shape of the dungeon. As with the other decisions, the players can negotiate these decision together and hash out which door to open, but it still impedes on the game.





This game is all about control. We control our resources, we control our characters, we control how we respond to our threats. Removing some of that control in a multiplayer experience and spreading it around so that each player is equally in control of the decisions isn't enriching the experience--it's watering down the single player game experience and adding in out-of-game potential for conflict negotiation between players. It'd be like playing the game with three different AI in single player, except the AI might have strongly-worded opinions about the way you're playing, or which door to open, or your mom.



Which brings me back to my ideas about the Response Team/Natives.



The players taking on these other, non-survivor roles are taking on characters with less control in the situation--but they have full autonomy over an array of mechanics unique to their role in the multiplayer experience. Negotiations between players won't be about how to best emulate single player successes in a multiplayer forum, but about how to utilize new and different mechanics to ensure everyone's success. The player in charge of the crystal/resources has the most control over the flow of the game, but due to the increased difficulty as a result of a significantly larger team of characters, has to come up with new strategies relying on the unique abilities of the Response Team/Natives to maximize the possibility of survival.

I agree with the previous mentioned suggestions.

A coop mode (campaign maybe), were the group is split up between several crashed section. Either team has to fulfill a certain objective to continue to the next level. Maybe a larger focus on individual hero's with their respective skills (bit like Warcraft 3's enfo's map) surviving waves and working together.

The vs mode also seems interesting, but I would prefer coop.

I have a suggestion, there are 2 spaceship crashes, and each one of the players spawns in random a spot, you will have to cooperate so each one of the player´s crystals goes into the exit, if one of the players dies, he will have to continue on his own.

I would love there to be like a 2-player coop, where you and another friend team up and travel through the dungeon, yet it is extremely harder than single player, since there are 8 characters in total. The second gamemode would sort of a versus game mode, where one person is the team of prisoners and the other player is the mobs, who are given a certain amount of mobs to spawn in different rooms, so they could decide on where the mobs would come out of.

Last man standing mode. Two players. Both players have their own dungeon and heroes. You open a door. Something happens, mobs attack etc... After all is well and the monsters are dead, you can play a part in deciding the consenquences for the next player as he/she/it opens a door. If there's a monster surge, you could possibly move the spawned monsters, decide where and how they spawn and try to make your competitor's life as miserable as possible. He/she/it does the same to you. This is repeated until one player loses all heroes.



This could be coupled with the crystal - if it is carried to the exit, then the player with the most points (calculated somehow) wins. Or somesuch.

Hi,



I would like to share with You a few thoughts about Multiplayer and some suggestions.

As for the current state of the game we start having 2 heroes. I hope that you plan on making it so that 2 people join one game. As for me i would prefer to have an option where i can opt for my friend or have someone outside from my Steam friends list join me also known as some random dude .



Also upon finding hero inside dungeon i would love to have an option allowing 3rd and 4th player join my game when he/she is needed. And again to have an option of filling his place with friend or letting the game find someone for you.



From technical side of programming it... Maybe inside Multiplayer screen you could implement different lobbies etc.



I think such option would greatly benefit the game and make even more interesting and random and unique!



Nidit

I'm sure this will seems just out of topic for a lot of people, because it perhaps seems that too much of the game will have to be re-written, but a local coop with split screen should be just absolutely awesome in such an atmospheric game. (and the game already got a kind of zooming mechanic, that should allow any player to set the view he wants).



Because the way this game works if just exactly like a Descent, a Gauntlet, a Dungeon Fighter, a Space Hulk or any table top game. And a split screen should fit really well because I feel so much playing Hired Guns with DotE : simple game mechanics, really intuitive gameplay, and really fast learning and fast launched games...



This game is a jewel of simplicity and to share this ambience with friends during a party could just be a really cool experience.



And I think, both local or not multiplayer, an option to permit friends to at least take place with an already hired character, would give a nice feeeling of openness.



PS : concerning the sharing, I think food should be shared aswell as the others ressources, it is just to the group to learn how to manage this (or to players to choose better their teammates...)

Hi,



The idea is cool but as you assumed, complex to do technically.

But we'll keep it in mind

I'm glad to hear that

(In fact I should paid the same price as the founder pack just to get a "4 players local coop DLC")



...et un ptit resto pour fêter ça :P

I would envision vs. mode completely differnt!



Both players spawn on the same map and have to find each other.

To prevent one of the players from just camping there should also be a timer of let's say 1 minute after which, if he hasn't opened a door, a door gets opened autmatically. Once the players have met there is no automatic healing anymore.

There should be selecteable monster-strengths for that. From no monsters (where you could basically try to just be as fast as possible) to very strong ones, where you will want to be very carefull like in SP.

I've read a nice and simple idea to add into DOTE, sadly I couldn't find it at the moment of making this post to add as a reference.



This guy just pointed that it would be nice to have some sort of Dungeon of the Endless Daily Challenge (idea taken from The Spelunky Daily Challenge), where a unique generated dungeon is available for everyone to play with only one chance to solve, finally scores goes to a leaderboard.

Well... definately a coop mode comes to mind. Though I don't really know if it would work. Having a few players control their own hero could end in a chaotic turn of events but I for one kinda like the idea. If someone wishes to do something pretty dumb (opening a few doors at the same time) it would undermine the whole party. It opens up the trolling option, I know, but you can never fully prevent that I guess.



Another game mode that could be fun is a sort of 1v1. And here I have two ideas. One is a "party vs party" mode where two players compete against eachother in a orderly DotE fashion and rush for the exit (and if they meet on the way... well that's one way to declare the winner).

The second one is a bit more tricky due to the randomness DotE is based on. The idea is to have one player be a dungeon overlord of sorts and prepare traps and mobs in rooms for the player to face. If the player gets to the exit they win. If not, the overlord wins.



And, of course, what's been mentioned in a different thread (was it in "course of the game"?) and now by arguser, and that's this Daily Challenge.

As Kreeth said, a coop mode first comes to mind. That is what I am waiting for.



It might be difficult to settle. Maybe a system like left for dead, where only one guy has to finish the level to make everybody goes to the next.



Are the ressources shared or not ?



Is everybody able to build towers ?



There is probably many other questions that has to be answered.



Anyway, I don't have all the answers, but i really want to play with my friends.

I'm a big fan of co-operative multiplayers--but I also think this game opens itself up to the idea that the characters are desperate, and might not co-operate.



This is what I thought up when I considered multiplayer. Obviously it's just one brainstorm out of many in the community, and some of these ideas some folks'll not like as much as others.



What if multiplayer's core mechanic was to compromise or compete? Maybe the crystal for powering the ship starts out broken into . Each player can still gather dust/power rooms, but it costs more to power each room than it does in the single player. Players can work with the other players to jointly power different rooms which'd reduce the cost of expansion, but everyone is trying to protect their own slice of the crystal--which means player 2 and player 1 might have a direct conflict of interest if player 2 wants to open a door to expand outward, but player 1's defenses are weak on that side.



Crystal shards could be combined with enough expenditure of Science/the blue resource we can eventually gather--but in the process of combining, one player loses autonomy over the means of production. That frees up the player without the crystal to run the front line for exploration with his 4 heroes, so long as the player controlling the resources is making smart moves with tower development and the whatnot. Conversely, this allows the player with control over the means of production to cut off the player without the crystal--but what happens when you've got a bunch of rogue heroes kicking down all the doors and summoning waves of monsters focused on an attacking on your structures?



Alternatively, players who pool their resources both retain control over the means of production, but are suddenly sharing their food, industry, science, and dust across 8 different characters. The more players you're allied with, the more resources you're going to need to manage together--meanwhile, the enemy waves are only growing stronger.



And then there's factoring in hero psychoses: what if player 1's heroes and player 2's heroes have deep seated issues with each other and won't play nice? What if they can't be in the same room without being liable to attack each other? Is it worth taking on the additional burden of a new group of survivors if they don't seem trustworthy to your heroes?



Like I said, these are just some thoughts on how multiplayer could work. I'm not married to the ideas, but I am curious to see what other folks in the community think/want.

Co-op, but i think it will be very difficult. Maybe first player will manage technologies, modules etc and second player will control characters. But need to add something fresh for both roles.



1 vs 1 mode, like Space Hulk board game. One player will spawn aliens (and upgrade it).

Hi. I'm the "daily challenge" guy (glad to see the idea is liked ^^). Here's the topic :



/#/dungeon-of-the-endless/forum/46-general/thread/17041-a-daily-game-mode



It could be great, even if it's not a real multiplayer mode (cause the players does not have interactions).



There was a start of a discussion about versus mode in this topic :



/#/dungeon-of-the-endless/forum/46-general/thread/17038-versus-mode



Personaly, I suggested three things :



Versus ideas :



1/ A race to the elevator, with a players turn-over : the winner (first to join the elevatar with his crystal, like always) continue the game, the other loose the game. So it would be a random encounter with another player at each floor. But it can be hard to set-up, I'm aware of that. The mode needs a system of matchmaking between floors, to find a opponent at the same floor as you. So it would be a passive matchmaking : you could play on an other game mode (solo, I presume), and as soon as the game find a match, your actual game is automaticaly saved (after a fight if you were in middle of one) and you're joining the other player.



2/ Another option is just an entire game with the same mate, with special "two elevator" maps (cause two players can't be at the same beginning spot, and it would be strange to have one elevator which lead to two different places). An elevatar can only be used once. Problem is : one player could have more lucky to find quickly his elevator than another. Well, not in the actual random system, but maybe later, when the room randomization system will change (just as said in this topic : /#/dungeon-of-the-endless/forum/46-general/thread/17050-extraction-spawned-right-next-to-the-crystal). Maybe just one elevator but two different destinations with crystal socket? Weird, but it’s an Endless science, after all! Endless elevator are mysterious! : D



Although it’s more easy to do than my first proposition, this mode is hard to balance. If one player is in far away, ahead on an other player, it could become a boring game to the two players. The game should slow down the winning guy to maintain some challenge, or help the other player.



An other problem (the main problem, I think) is it could result in a lack of room to explore for a late player. If I’m late in the race, and my actual floor is already empty, with all doors opened, I can’t find items, characters, I can’t stock food, production, science, Dust. So a game mode like that needs to have some major change in the mecanisms, I think.



3/ An other potential good versus mode could be a co-op/versus game, where players could play together during one time, making the game a lot more easier, but in the end, there is only one winner. So the players know at one time, one of them will betray the other. ^^ The winner could take the resources of the looser, so it would be more advantageous to work together for a long time, but also more temptating to backstab the other, cause the more he lives, the more his stuff, technology, resources, are good. ^^ It could be a good paranoid mode. : ) There could be a sharing resources system. It should add some benefits for the two players, making the game more easy, but the two of them have to be agree about what to do, and they know they have to stay cautious, cause sooner or later, they have to fight each other again.



Co-op ideas :



1/ Two teams coop game : Each one in a different part of the dungeon. Several options to the game : - they have to find them before they can collaborate, or they can just see what the other one see.

- The resources/items are sharing, but only when the two players are connected by opened rooms (they have to find them first!). Or the resources are always sharing. Or they’re not at all, unless a player give some to the other (it for the ones who are always disagree or can’t communicate easily!).

- The wave monsters are just spawning to the side of the player who open a door (it’s until the two players find themselves). Or general wave monsters!



2/ One team coop game. The game start with four characters (random or not), and one player control two of them, and the other player the two others. The resources are shared. Two options : free decisions of each player, or an alternated system. On one turn, it’s player A who choose the powered rooms and what to build, and the next turn it’s player B. Of course, it doesn’t prevent the players to be agree, but it could solve some problem for the ones who can’t be agree.



You could also do a special adventure mode coop/versus : 4 players (or more! maybe 6 should be good), each playing a single character they could choose at the start of the game. And it would be a more RPG style experience, but not just that. I have in mind an other paranoiac mode (I like suspicion and backstab, I have to confess ) which seems fit well with the SF and the “mysterious facility” background of the game. It’s a special mode with a different goal as usual : it’s just a huge floor, with fog war for each player (you can not see what the other see if you’re not in the same room), where the players have to find an alien creature hidden in the facility and destroy it. The thing is, the creature can infect other players, which becomes allies with the boss creature and the aliens, and can infect other players too. But the other players can’t see it, and the infected one can continue to pretend to be one of the good ones, until he has an opportunity to do a lot of damage, like infect another player (with some hard conditions, cause it would be too easy otherwise you know!), destroy a generator or opened some door with monsters behind. The good ones could find/craft/develop technology to discover the infected ones and some ways to cure them (like kill a “queen”, find a “serum”…). The players could spy each other (without saying to the one you suspect you spy him with a nano-camera or something like that who prevent war fog if you are separated, but he could know one day!).



Yeah, I know, it’s absolutely not relative to Dungeon of the Endless. Sorry for that, I just saw The Thing and Alien a waaay too much. : )



A long post. I hope it could be a good summary of few options we could have in the game for multiplayer.



I like the proposition of fepriest about multiplayer! (Obviously, we have some ideas in common. ^^)

I would love to see co-op be the main focus of MP. I can see how each player controlling a hero would be an obvious choice of where to go. I'd also like to maybe see an alternate game mode where 2-4 players all start with their own ship on a very large map, their objective will be to all survive until they can find each other, and then use the power from all 4 ships to open the exit and escape.

I would love to see a dungeon creator mode that go under 3 categories: Short play, Long play, Endless play that can be shared with high score tables for each map hosted on a server.



Short play: Same length as a regular game of DotE where a scoring system between time and high score are calculated

Long play: Time is not taken into account, just scores.

Endless play: Score is not taken into account, just the length of time you survived for.



This would probably require its own SDK tool so I'm guessing it wont happen.



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



As a side note I really like the idea of a dungeon master against 2-4 people.

I'm all about the "paranoid" multiplayer mode. I dunno if the game designers are familiar with the Prison Guard experiment , but if they could capture that tension in the multiplayer, I think it'd be really cool.

Co-op could open up a door of possibilities. I'd like to see maybe 2 player co-op where there's maybe a bigger dungeon and more challenging monsters, but the payoff is each player controls up to 4 heroes. Perhaps the option to draft pick the heroes at the start of the game. I see each player running off the same power core but having their own resources (F/I/S) while the dust gathered by both players adds to the power total. While gathering dust contributes to the room total for both players, each can power rooms equal to the maximum allotment. The catch is, one player cannot power a room off the other players power grid. Again, bigger dungeons would make it a balance, each player is responsible for their own heroes, opening and fortifying rooms while both working to protect the same objective. Doing this would encourage them to work together and move at an equal pace, as monsters spawning in darkness could doom both players. Once the exit is found it works the same as it does in singleplayer. For dungeon creation I'd expect a lot more forks in the road. Perhaps even having each group of heroes spawning on different sides of the ship, where there are connected rooms that have triggers that can only be activated by the other player. like a chasm with a switch.

I'm interested in some of these co-op ideas, but I think the biggest hurdle is that permitting two teams suddenly makes it less of a Dungeon Crawl of survivors and instead a squad of troops clearing the environment. In terms of shared responsibilities, I think the biggest trouble here is keeping the game interesting for both players, because as much as I like strategic elements, I can't imagine having a lot of fun building defenses and researching tech on its own.



So what if we took the co-op ball and ran in a totally different direction with it. What if we distilled the game to its essence and instead made a multiplayer mode where the heroes are reduced to two players which are controlled by humans (theoretically this allows 'up to four' co-op, but I don't think this particular idea scales well as will likely be apparent in a moment). This might mean a bit of a buff for the heroes, but, likewise, an increased intensity for the monsters (or, perhaps, a less forgiving weighting to the probabilities of beneficial events occurring).



One point I'm a little less clear on is how to handle resources. I'm of two minds for it: One idea is to have no generation at all. The players must rely on what they find in the dungeon (this would suggest a pretty significant difference in terms of probabilities now). Alternatively, find some way of inhibiting the effectiveness of the second player if they decide to boost resource production for that turn (my imagination is failing me at this point, but I suppose its simplest form would be forcing a player in place for X period of time to complete the generation before they can assist). The idea here is to make the decision each player makes have a genuine impact on the outcome of the turn: do we play it safe and put two people into the room? Or do we risk it and generate resources?



Hero recruitment could still have a place as a means of mitigating player death (no heroes available for recruitment when both are alive, but the chance of a hero being generated goes up from 0 once a player dies. This also brings an incentive to engage in resource collection, because it's a looooong wait otherwise).



To recap: the idea is mostly to make it much more of a dungeon crawl and take the game down to its essence in order to make sure that both players are active and are making a meaningful contribution to the team's success or failure.

Co-op:

1. Single-ship/team seems easier to implement vs. dual ship/team, also more of a rewarding and cooperative playing experience.

2. Largest problem as stated is how to handle resources: shared vs. split. Shared requires teamwork to succeed but that doesn't necessarily mean it will encourage cooperation, and may in the end just be frustrating. Split would either mean either too many or too little resources. Too many could be balanced by stronger/more abundant forces and larger maps and seems it may be the most keeping with turret-defense/dungeon crawl type games.



Vs.:

1. This seems it would be much harder to implement than co-op but may provide the most interesting and intriguing play.

2. It would have to be in a matchmaking or server type system. I doubt this is something the devs want to devote their efforts toward over all the other things they have planned.

IF they were, I feel something like a tetris-type vs. would be intriguing.



SUGGESTION FOR VS.: Both players would spawn on a copy of the same map and could choose their heroes/ships beforehand. Opening multiple doors in succession would create waves for the opponent even if they didn't open a door. Going too fast through the doors would spell defeat, while going too slow would mean you wouldn't get enough resources to keep up with your opponent's expansion. First player to the end wins the round or the last player whose crystal is still standing, maybe with multiple rounds or elimination in a tournament.

Hi guys,



The Game2Gether is back at last, with two exciting votes for Dungeon of the Endless. Check out the blog post for more details.





LONG TERM PRIORITY









Please, let us know what you HAVE in mind for the Multiplayer mode of Dungeon of the Endless.

I would see the vs mode more turn-based. Right now DotE singleplayer is a mixture of turn and real-time (you fight and run and build and all that jazz in real time, but opening a door is like a turn). Each player chooses the door he wants to open and then presses "end turn". Everything afterwards would be real time just like in singleplayer. If the player refuses to choose a door, the game will randomly open one.

Multiplayer:

- What i'm thinking for a vs is 2 separate dungeons(or more for 3+ players) you competition can be survival(endless waves), perhaps a score with a set time.

- Different starting locations, all on 1 massive map vs mode, pvp enabled.

- Co-op, either as a group, each with own character or team(maybe 2 characters each). Depends how big the maps can get, limits being set for the game.

- It would be interesting to randomly encounter another team while going through the floor, some sort of always online pvp enabled mode. Killing the other team and destroying crystal could give 1/2 their resources and a random item from their team.



I think just keeping it simple and fun is best. (1) vs mode should just be a separate map's and survival style. (2) Co-op is a bit tricky, I think it would require a different type of mode/mechanics to the game. I can't see myself playing with random people who are horribly at decisions, bad support in combat, randomly open doors..... just terrible at decisions! lol.



Co-op Mode: Perhaps each 1 character, different roles (Heavy/tank, Damage, Repair). Dust would need to be individual, food, even industry i think. Lol, I dunno.

If the game was more 3D like Warcraft-3 or Starcraft-2 you could do a lot more with it, but as its 2D and characters just move into a room and auto do their thing it really limits things; Like co-op lane survival, vs lane survival (waves get harder each round, and you buy items for the character you picked with gold rewarded).

Can't say I enjoy the vision of co-op in this game. I guess I've seen to many trolls in my life (cave, snow, metropolis - all kinds you can imagine) to be optimistic. Although if one shall find 3 friends reliable enough, I guess it could change into "Borderlands in Dungeons". Can't say much, since we still don't know much about skills and specializations. Cause as for know I suppose this type of gameplay would be quite boring, esp. for those in care of weaker characters (ranged).





The PvP option is quite good. Obviously it would need a change in game objectives. Not an exit - thats something that everyone can use. Also it would pose a problem how to handle the crystal phase. My idea? A race towards lifeboat, shuttle, safehouse of sorts, core AI that controls this place - something that is most precious for survivors and something that can't be shared between two groups. This time the mission would be about connecting this "EndPlace" to your crystal, instead of towing it along. Same here like above - can't say much more; we're still mostly unaware about the story "layer" of this game and what kind of "EndPlace" would suit the single player story the best. Since those guys supposedly never left Auriga, I guess the "control room" thingy sounds better.

Oh, of course there is one, but huge, weakness - it would be really painful to rework the randomization engine so that it'd create a dungeon equally balanced for both parties.





Finally, love the idea of changing the multiplayer into a "Dungeons (of the Endless) Keeper". There are two ways I see: dungeon building or monster master.

First option would assume that there are randomly generated dungeons that everybody could "accessorize", i.e. pinpoint the locations of monster spawns, goodies, merchants et cetera. Everyone entering multiplayer 'll be given a choice, whether he want to be "a constructor" or "tester" / "beater". The "constructor" would be given randomly generated dungeon and a pool of points to dispose ("x value" option); or, even better, obliged to balance the design, with every trap giving minus points, every boost giving plus points, all with objective to stay on level ("zero value" option). Such designed levels would be uploaded on server for "testers" to... well, test them. If somebody fails, points go for the designer. If one shall beat them - points for him. Consequently, there 'll be two leaderboards, one for each role.

This solution is - I suppose - easier to prepare, but less fun, since it minimize the interactions between players; frankly, changing the multi into as much as interactive challenge mode.

So, there is a second option. This would require revising the rules of game. Instead of being a real time, it should change into quasi turn-based. Each turn would be spent for building / upgrades / heals by the attacker, "the Vaulter", and for setting the defences by the "Monster Master". So, the part of Vaulter is pretty much obvious, nothin much to add, aye? In the meantime the "Master" would spend his turn on a) upgrading his hordes: HP, damage, composition (question is, what would be his resource? maybe make some new one, something like "Rage Points", slowly rising with each monster slew and with bonuses for each module destroyed / hero killed), b) setting the spawn points (out of somehow generated pool, perhaps accordingly to the size of the dungeon / percentage of rooms discovered) and finally c) choosing the location of the "welcoming party" out of the all accessible doors (so, if the "Vaulter" has access to three new rooms, the "Master" chooses one of them to place his trap for this round). When both parties shall end their job, turn ends and game shifts for the real time phase, when the Vaulter...well, do the same as in single player. Open one of those doors and deals with whats behind them.

Thus, the role of "Monster Master" is a mix of tactics - by steering the waves of monsters - and gambling. The biggest challenge would be balancing the pace of the game, so the Vaulter wouldn't have to wait endlessly during the Masters' preparations; and the Master wouldn't get bored as a passive observer during the real time phase. Still, in my humble opinion, this game mode provides most fun, most interesting interactions and solutions unique across all genre. Although it would be hell to programme......

Multiplayer suggestion #1



1 on 1 co-op:

Game plays as normal. One player plays as survivors. Second Player as a response team to the Prison ship crashing. Think the Aliens trilogy marines, coming in all confident and ready to save the day. The Response team is a team of 4. Permadeath is Permadeath, and there is no way for the Response team to hire on new heroes



Their skills/passive abilities add to the total offensive capabilities of the survivors. Cheaper prices for turrets, maybe unique blueprints which only they can build.



Monster waves increase so the response team needs to spread its numbers effectively to meet the main players' defensive needs.



The Response Team Can't/won't:

work modules

open doors

carry crystals (?)



The Response team heroes have psyche's radically different than the survivors'. The faster the party can get out of a dungeon (the less doors opened and time spent exploring), the more skills/bonuses the Response Team gets. Their goal is to extract as quickly as possible. They aren't concerned about discovering the ruins' secrets. The goal for them is to get out as fast as possible.



I think this'd make a good co-op mode with competitive angle--the survivors are trying to reap the resources of exploring the rooms so they can move on to the next area with a strong foundation. The Response team is all about spearheading its way out of the dungeon. Failure to appease the Response Team could lead to:

Response team members sabotaging the survivors (new skills passive/active that shut down production at modules, redirects dust, etc.)



Response team members "baiting" mobs (luring monsters to specific rooms, maybe with a "module" that costs food instead of industry)



Response team members "inciting" negative qualities of survivor characters (playing psychoses of the survivor heroes against one another: the conflict between prisoners, guards, etc.)



The Survivors', can defend and respond to the Response team by:

Pulling power to areas the Response team are defending at vital moments



Mutually Instigated (maybe) Hero v. Hero fights. If the Survivors win, they assert dominance and can negate some of the response teams' negative factors. Losing hero doesn't die, but loses a level. If the Response team wins, the survivors are cowed.





Mulitplayer suggestion #2



1 on 1 Co-op:



Game plays as normal. One player plays as survivors. Second player plays as Natives. I can't think of a movie/pop culture reference to compare these to. But unlike the Response Team, the Natives don't come armed to the teeth, or even with big numbers. Natives are a team of 2. Permadeath is Permadeath, but they can "hire" natives they encounter in the dungeons the same as the survivors



The Natives skills/passive abilities are about resource control. They use module slots and secondary modules (turrets, defense, etc.) the same way the survivors do, but use food to build



Natives modules modify the way mobs respond in the dungeon:

Native Modules are "nests/cages/pens" that produce food=to the amount of creatures killed in that room the turn prior.



The secondary nodes (where turrets go) produce "pheremones" or "favored foods" so that certain creatures are lured to that area first.



The secondary nodes can also produce weaker versions of the mob monsters to defend that particular room.



Natives are helping because they can piggyback off the survivors to farm. They have radically different psyches than the survivors. They don't really care if the survivors make it out--they are using the survivors' struggles as a way to claim territory/farm food. They are more interested in staying on a certain level long enough to gather food for themselves. The Natives psychoses are positively/negatively effected based on the amount of food that carries from one level to the next, and they gain their abilities dependent upon the food they have access to.



Natives won't:

open doors

carry crystals

work industry or science modules



Negative relations with the Natives can lead to:

Natives gaining skills (passive/active) that allow them to instigate mobs (faster moves/harder attacks).



Natives "Taxing" food production (automatically taking food from survivors' bank when they work a module?)



Natives "modules" become hostile to the survivors.



The Survivors can defend against the Natives' negativity by:



Appeasing with offers of food



A hero versus hero fight see Response team rules.



Appealing to individual Natives' psyches (empathy, etc.)



Like the Response team faction, the Natives would create a tension between the two players that requires active and alert decision making. There is also a chance for conflict between the two players if they don't get along with their resource production. They also significantly change up the tactics of gameplay.



3 player games can have Response Teams and Natives at the same time.



Successfully playing a multiplayer game all the way through with a faction should reward the players'in single player as well. Access to faction specific modules or characters for all players involved



Things to consider:



4, 5, and 6 player games?



"bandit" response team and "rescue" response team as two separate "factions" (different psychoses/rationale?)



Synergy between multiplayer factions (would the response teams be more patient if the natives were around, if they could use science to study the natives? And how do the natives respond to being studied?)



Scaling difficult to match the number of additional heroes on the board? (I really like the idea of having more than just the 4 survivors in multiplayer. It allows for a huge hike-up in difficulty/waves. Then factoring in environmental concerns (a fire in one room, a toxic event in another, etc.) and the need to spread all these characters thin over the whole dungeon--it requires intense teamwork and strategizing. And by making the "survivor" character the main decision maker, it requires the players to negotiate and trust each other enough to listen to one another's strategies.)



Sorry for the lengthy post--I get ideas in my head and I'm compelled to explain them.

My initial thought is simply co-op in which each player starts with a hero or two. One person gets guards, the other gets prisoners. Resources are limited and must be divided. Game play can be designed such that prisoner's dilemma type scenarios of sharing vs. hording arise.



For example, shared production could maximize total production for both players while hording production could significantly increase the chances of finding items for the player that makes that choice.





@fepriest I really like the response team idea. However, I'd prefer to see it as them working down from the top to try to meet in the middle. obviously, in this mode, the largest and most difficulat floors would be in the middle rather than the top. The response team does not have a crystal but instead a limited number of flares to work with in the entire game. The exact number would be a balancing issue. They would be unable to build powered defenses and would breach doors rather than powering them. Breaching doors would spawn monster waves. The response team would have significant firepower but would need to strategically deploy flares and mines as they work their way through a floor.



That's about all I've got. I'm hesitant to go into much more detail than my basic concepts because I'm not exactly a game designer. The details would be a matter of play testing, I think.

Anosognos wrote:


@fepriest I really like the response team idea. However, I'd prefer to see it as them working down from the top to try to meet in the middle. obviously, in this mode, the largest and most difficulat floors would be in the middle rather than the top. The response team does not have a crystal but instead a limited number of flares to work with in the entire game. The exact number would be a balancing issue. They would be unable to build powered defenses and would breach doors rather than powering them. Breaching doors would spawn monster waves. The response team would have significant firepower but would need to strategically deploy flares and mines as they work their way through a floor.

ooOOOOOOooooo. I like the idea of them working down to the party, too. I'm not sure how that'd work as far as balance--it would shorten the time of the game since both players would be chipping through the layers from either end--but then it minimizes the interaction of the two players until the very end of the game.

Maybe it could be something where players rotate control of rooms for example, player 1 can build in room 1, then another room opens up and player 2 can build in there, then player 3 in room 3 and 4 in room 4. Then player 1 would get building rights in room 5 and so on. And the total amount of resources gained could get even divided among the players and each player has their own resource pool. And if a player is boosting production on a module then only that player could receive the extra resources.



Or an alternate game mode thats almost like a super dungeon where each player starts with a decent amount of resources and all modules are already built. there is no construction and the goal is just to see how deep the group can get. or maybe they can build defenses but no modules. then all they have to do is decide which rooms to power.



The only possible problem I could foresee is the group deciding which rooms to power.



and I think that opening doors, powering rooms, building things, etc could be like put to a vote and as long as there is a majority vote said action gets completed.



It would also be kinda cool if instead of just 4 character slots there was like a sub-character type thing where in multiplayer you can recruit an ally that travels with your character and gives your character some kind of boost whether it be stat boosts or they also attack creatures.





And for pvp I think it would be cool if a player's/team's exit was where the opposing player's/team's crystal was

fepriest wrote:
ooOOOOOOooooo. I like the idea of them working down to the party, too. I'm not sure how that'd work as far as balance--it would shorten the time of the game since both players would be chipping through the layers from either end--but then it minimizes the interaction of the two players until the very end of the game.

I think the time issue could be easily be mitigated with sliders for number of levels and level size. Come to think of it, I think this should be a basic setting for the game, similar to galaxy settings in 4X games.



Player interaction could be fostered through some additional mechanic. The response team could send their (finite) resources down shafts to give the crash victims a large resource or tech boost. Likewise, the crash victims could spend dust to activate consoles and send the response team intel on enemies, giving them stat buffs.



I'm not saying this is how it should be implemented. I'm just spit-balling. There are probably any number of ways it could be done.

there can be some bug dividing wall that seperates the players, giving them time to prepare, and then after a timer ends the walls could come down and the players fight.

I've been playing the heck out of DotE for the last few days just to brainstorm great concepts for multiplayer... Here is my idea:

Up to four player Co-op, with each player controlling a single hero, each sharing resources (except for food), that way they need to cooperate and determine what defenses to place. The difficulty could also be ramped up a whole lot more based on how many players are actually playing, that way you won't become overpowered with leveling (since you'd only have to level one character). Naturally, say you have two players, they will both start with one hero, but have the option to recruit one more if they find one. as for three player, I think each person will just have to stick with one hero, and whoever finds the fourth hero can recruit them if they wish (so two people will have one, and the person who wants to can have two). So basically, the big part of it would be: the more players, the higher the difficulty level. Each sharing dust and industry, but not sharing food. And if the player's character(s) gets killed, then they have to wait until another player recruits another hero, so they would recieve the newly recruited (and most likely HIGHLY underleveled) hero. It would also be cool if the more players = the bigger the dungeons. Of course, an endless dungeon mode would be pretty awesome too for multiplayer, with the difficulty ramping up the more doors your party opens. This was just my big awesome Co-op idea for the game, and I certainly hope it can help inspire a great Co-op mode!



I am glad to put in my two cents and I cannot wait to see this masterpiece of a game go through development!

I'm also really sorry for the long post, it's just the up-and-coming game developer inside me coming out xD

I can't see competitive being remotely conductive to what the game is about. Co-Op seems to be the way to go in my mind. Simply just running as the game does now, except that you have someone else driving stuff next to you.

You can't control a character that another player is controlling etc.



The doors to trolling are opened, but it's generally something easily avoided after the first. Person X trolls, don't party with Person X again, simple. Party with your friends or risk the PUGs.



I figure it'd be a 2 player co-op only, as 4 players may very well end in too many "waiting around doing nothing" sessions.

Although a variant of that could be that in the lobby the host gets to choose the starting players, and you have a character for each player (with the initial difficulty scaling to suit the number), then if someone dies they just have to sit and wait and hope that the rest of the team survive to find another party member. In the mean time they could still be useful for advice, map checking or even just planting modules.



And there's always options for non-active players to be able to do unique multiplayer things, like "scan" a dark room and see if there are any monsters currently in it etc.



Loads to do cooperatively, but competitive just doesn't seem to fit the theme of the game in my eyes. The idea is about people struggling to survive and escape against the monsters and working together against all odds, not fighting it out amongst themselves and giving an early dinner to the monsters.