I still stand by my idea (while the Response Team concept is neat, I feel it kinda gets too far off from the point of DotE)... Here's a simpler (more comprehensible) version of my idea (stated on page 2).

Co-Op

1.) Two to Four players. If two players; each starts with one random hero and can recruit one more additional hero per person. If four players; Each gets one random hero.

2.) The amount of players = The bigger and more difficult the dungeon becomes. (With two players being a decent-sized, mid-difficulty dungeon and four being much more vast and difficult)

3.) Shared resources EXCEPT for food.

4.) If a player finds a blue-print, it is shared with everyone. If a player finds an item, however, only they receive it.

5.) It should be the exact same gameplay as it is in single player.

6.) Should a player's hero die in four player, they should just have to wait until the other players recruit another hero found in a dungeon. (this is especially punishing in later floors, since they will have to level quick or die)

7.) More mobs of monsters.

8.) With four people exploring the dungeon, more doors can be opened at a much faster rate, which can lead to frantic situations when two (or even all four) heroes open doors with swarms of creatures awaiting them.

9.) Food should not be shared, since if it is shared there will always be the player who uses it on himself/herself when an ally needs it more. Plus this would allow for heroes to balance more and level equally.

10.) Big boss creatures spawning in along with randomized events will certainly add twists to every play-through.



I believe this game can become a prime example of Co-Op with friends done right. Dungeon-crawling and defending your crystal with a group of buddies in a beautiful, deadly, and never-ending dungeon will definitely be something to brag about on the store page!

I'm digging the co-op Response Team, meet in the middle idea though I agree there'd need to be some interactive mechanics along the way.



I do feel like there ought to be a final end-game run after the two teams meet - either back through the area cleared by the RT (but with some twists like room cave-ins & re-routing) or through a boss dungeon or something. I envision the scene in LotR where they knock the bucket down the well in Moria. Up until the teams meet up, they were only fighting the local sentries. After they meet up, the alarm goes out and the danger level / horde gets dialed up or becomes a continuous wave.



Or... once everyone gets the power crystal back to the RT's ship, it needs to be installed while a few real-time waves of enemies attack?

The only issue I have with the Response Team co-op is that how would defenses be implemented? What are you really defending? Unless the RT lands their ship and needs the power crystal of the wrecked team to escape, THAT would make plenty of sense, but at the same time, RT wouldn't really need to defend anything until the end when they try to get the crystal to the ship.. Or am I just over-thinking things? I just think making a four player version of what exists (one person controls one hero, you can read the whole idea up above) would suffice and make for a great co-op experience. What group of friends doesn't want to endlessly dungeon crawl, level up, get loot, place defenses and fight swarms of foes, while trying to escape with the crystal? I think that's the way to go..

I would suggest that, on the way down, the response team is simply defending themselves. They don't have the ability to power rooms and, as such, they are getting constant large monster waves with no automated defenses. Their strategy will be about laying traps and flares to create chokepoints and cover their rear/flanks.



On the way back out, after they meet in the middle, they could be required to take a different route due to a cave in or some other catastrophe (as an excuse to generate new levels).



Monster numbers, speed, and damage could be increased at this point, since the teams can now work together.

Anosognos wrote:
I would suggest that, on the way down, the response team is simply defending themselves. They don't have the ability to power rooms and, as such, they are getting constant large monster waves with no automated defenses. Their strategy will be about laying traps and flares to create chokepoints and cover their rear/flanks.



On the way back out, after they meet in the middle, they could be required to take a different route due to a cave in or some other catastrophe (as an excuse to generate new levels).



Monster numbers, speed, and damage could be increased at this point, since the teams can now work together.

I like the alternative route. So you got this response team gunning their way down and attracting bunches of mob attention. When they meet the survivors, and see that they have valuable cargo (the Crystal) that's also attracting monsters, what would they do? Go back through the areas they just ran through, knowing the mobs were swarming after them that way? Or would they try for an alternate route to get back to the surface?

It's be pretty cool if coop featured two (or more) players that each start at different spots on a large map, control their own crystal, heroes and dust separately.



Spawns and door openings could be done on a timer, where you'd have to pick a door to open, but it will only open and spawn mobs when the timer ticks down to zero (every 5 minutes or whatever). This would keep all the players in sync. You eventually link up with the other player, but each person lights their own rooms with their own dust (colour coded to the different players to make it clear), with the ability to leapfrog over the other player's lit rooms and extend your reach.

My expectations before buying DotE were that the game would feature directly controlable Heroes through wasd keys with active abilities.

Multiplayer in that case would have been pretty easy doable - each player controls a hero and probably both can build defenses

with shared Resources and tradable loot. Since this is not the case and the game is centered around less micromanagement and

more "casual"-friendly mechanics I spent the last days thinking about how multiplayer could be implementet in a way that would

mean the most fun to me. Since I´m not a guy that loves to compete against his friends I will try to focus on my expectations/ideas for a

Coop-Mode and I will do this in a "stream of conscious" manner that reflect my thoughts on the matter and allows discussion rather than

giving just a fixed opinion.



Let me start with the first and biggest decision: seperate bases vs. a single base.

Seperate bases would involve a sort of competition because each player would try to open more doors than another player

to eventually get more loot - a concept that wouldn´t feel like coop, more like a versus-mode, even if the players would

eventually try to help each other defending their individual bases and getting the chrystal to the exit. Each dungeon also has

to be significantly larger in order to "hold" a certain number of player bases. In addition the lore of the game would feel akward

with an increasing number of ships that are simultaneously crashing on the planet.



Therefore in my opinion their should only be one base that is shared among a maximum number of two to four players.

Firstly I tried to imagine how multiplayer would look like if each player could build defenses and control a certain number

of heroes depending on the maximum number of players. In this scenario in a two player game the host and the client would

control two heroes each, where in a game with three players the host would control two heroes and the other players only one.

This would tie certain heros to the players and would increase the immersion for each player because everyone has "their" avatar

whilst playing. Their own center of attention that has to be taken care of. But this would mean that for a three player game

there must be a group of three starting heroes and therefore each monster wave that would spawn after opening a door must

be significantly larger depending on the number of players. If the Devs want to hold onto the concept of only two starting heroes

therefore the concept of a coop multiplayer like I am imagining here must involve that each player can control every hero

and each player can control building and researching.



But wheres the fun in such a case? Planning, building and commanding heros would involve more communication between

players but also the relatively "simple" gameplay would be shared. In a single player game I have to command my heros

and build my defense lines which actually don´t involve much "work". Pacing of the game is pretty relaxing where only

bad planning and certain rng elements (whats behind the door?) determine the outcome of a game session. This wouldn´t

change with more players involved, so there is nothing that would be added to the game while playing coop.

The relatively few actions you can make are even split amongst the players and the only good argument for coop

would be the communication aspect. Coop would basically mean that someone is "looking over my shoulder" (through a

seperate monitor) and also can make a mouse click or two. Pretty lame in my opinion. This could be changed a bit if

one player has the exclusive right to control food production, one energy production, one research and one defenses

while control of heroes is shared. But still in this case the mechanics are shared and therefore limited. Coop would feel "cut"

in comparison to the single player experience.



This basically brings me back to the first point: It seems that proper Multiplayer must be centered around differend starting bases.

I could imagine that there is a "Versus mode" where each player has their own resources, loot, enemies and chrystals where

at the end of a dungeon points determine which player has "won" that level. In a real coop experience this has to be altered.



In my opinion there should be seperate chrystals but in order to advance into a new dungeon each player´s chrystal has to

be brought to the exit. In order to achieve this every player has to help other players with tradable resources, loot and

also with their heroes. Trading loot can only be done if Heroes share a room together, where energy and food can only be

traded if the bases of players are connected through energised rooms. I would also suggest that when a player

opens a door that players base is attacked with a larger enemy wave but still the other players are also being attacked.

This would force players to plan their actions together and also would put pressure on the whole group without the need

for clear "rounds". If players can handle it, they can open multiple doors which results in more loot.

At some point of the game each seperate base will be connected with the base of another player which allows for choke

points that can be defended together. Still some already mentioned problems would exist, but at least this a basic idea

I can imagine for a fun multiplayer experience that would really add something to the game.

I think a coop mode will be better. Each player has his own hero (random choosen) and the ressources are shared beetween all the heroes. Every opened door, ressources are increased, but monsters are a little stronger because this is a coop.

Coop mode - two teams, split resources, turn-based - each turn each player chooses which door should be opened.

Basic ship layout is known. One team has to go "up", the other "down". The main crystal (on the engineering bay) is broken and needs to be replaced (although works like the usual one). Here is where one team starts. The other starts in the cockpit, with spare crystal is. Obviously, spare crystal needs to be delivered to the engeneering bay.

Once that it is done, a crewmember needs to get back into cockpit (as the crystal is not there, none could have stayed there alone due to swarm of enemies, it is time, when whole crew of both teams need to go together at all times).

Now where tactics come into mind - opening doors leading straight to the objective will not give you much dust or sciece or food. You get the point. But opening side doors will provide you with those things, slots, items and stuff. So both teams will need to find ballance between opening side doors and main ones, to maintains survivability and still be able to connect before waves of enemies will become too big.



This is the idea. There is variability in strategies, requires both to work together and make decisions together and yet both teams have slightly different roles.

I think multiplayer can function in a manner similar to the Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War II series. Each player controls up to 2 units. Multiplayer has to be limited to two players in my opinion for DotE. Here's why:



1) The game consists of too many resource mechanics to have four players with a character limit of 4. Some of the players would be stuck standing at industry or food generators and wouldn't actively be playing.

2) Allowing two characters per player allows for a higher level of strategy and cooperation. Player 1 could focus his stationary Wit based unit on the chokepoint where the majority of defensive turrets are, while exploring to the west with their mobile unit. The player 2 could focus their stationary unit on industry so that the capacity to recover from a big wave is always available, whilst exploring east with their mobile unit. Using whatever form of communication, they can call for help or reconvene at the choke point to team up for defense.

3) Expanding the number of characters allowed in a match would mean completely rebalancing the mechanics of the game.

4) This is the big one since the game is based on "endless" ideology, it seems a little rough to play a match and then quit when a buddy has to go and not play until they come back. You can do a join and drop system where the host can invite someone to join their currently running match at any given point.



Those reasons make the most sense to me.

CO-OP



Love the idea of just playing with a friend.

I'd say. each starts with one random starting from the same ship. play as normal. Honestly it'll be enjoyable just to go deeper into the dungeon with a friend. (and if there are only 8 levels planned. I hope there's a difficulty setting so that there is more replay value or even a horde mode)



How to handle getting the 3rd and 4th hero

When one guy finds a hero. they can decide who hires him based on which player interacts with the found hero and makes the transaction of 25-30 food. Then that player has his 2nd hero slot used. then when they come across another hero the other player with a free hero slot can pick him up.



I'd say keep it simple so that anyone will get it!



Versus!



Race to the finish

Dungeon starts, both players start at bottom left and right corners, Exit is in the center top(revealed). Dungeons are random but mirrored so that both players cant say they were at any kind of advantage/disadvantage. Race to the finish



2v2 Tug o War

Rooms can be found with beacons captured rooms produce 10 points per round controlled.

Rooms take 1 round to be considered controlled.

Rooms can be deactivated and turned into a capture point for the other team by successfully staying in the room or building a device for some tech/science for 2 rounds.

To make this work.

Both teams start with a limited supply of tech/science to disable enemy points

There are no monsters and it takes 1 turn to move from room to room.

Each room lights up as your player enters and dims when you exit.

You can only see your location and your partners location

Each player can make 1 move per round.

First team to 100 points wins

Now. What if 2 players come into the same room at once?!

Engagement Time!! Its more like a who gets a knock out punch first. engage and both players roll a d20 until one player has a higher number.

Winning player gets to leave the room.

Losing player gets KOd for 1 round (room goes dim so you cannot see where the other player went)

all heroes have even stats in this mode.



These game modes are just what I think could be a really fun addition to DOTE.

Thanks for reading

I'd love to see a sort of horde mode, where you stay on one floor with one or two other players in separate rooms with separate heroes, and waves of gradually increasing strength attack every 4 or 5 minutes.

I would really really like to see a head to head capture the flag (crystal?) mode. I think that would make the MP far more stellar than only a co-op mode. leveling up that carries over would be cool too. I think capturing the other teams crystal would be the funnest and easiest to implement pvp mode there could be. Each team starts with an exit directly behind their crystal and they need to get the other teams crystal and make it back to their own exit. Death is permanent and teams start even and people get to pick their characters beforehand.

Darkbrady wrote:


I figure it'd be a 2 player co-op only, as 4 players may very well end in too many "waiting around doing nothing" sessions.

Well, this could easily be avoided if (as I stated above in my post) the dungeon's difficulty and size varied based on how many players are in the game, two players being the lower of the spectrum and four players being the more difficult and most expansive... The bigger the dungeon, the more defenses to set, enemies to fight, and most importantly, doors to open. I see where you're coming from, but if done right, it will be awesome.

Got to say I would be deeply unimpressed with any sort of versus mode, but if that's all I was offered, then I'd just play Single Player. This is exactly what happened with X-COM: Enemy Unknown, I found there was no co-op, only versus mode and so I happily played the SP over and over.



Sure it'd be a bit easier in a turn-based game, but really co-op in this game would not be hard. Just have no pause feature at all, or a 1/2 majority pause system, where if 2 or more people hit 'Space' the game pauses. Or anyone can pause any time. Yes, very open to trolling were it online match-up but show me a game you can't troll in! Good luck creating a troll-free Co-op, team or versus game. Just don't play with dick-heads and have a happy life.



Co-op. I will gladly buy a 4-pack of the game and gift my tightest buddies a sweet indie Roguelike and start kicking some doors down. Don't take the easy route, go Co-op!

Multiplayer should add additional layers of complexity to the game--not reduce and refract the complexity. If multiplayer is designed to reproduce the same mechanics used in the single player game, then:



1) debates over resource management could slow down the game experience. Even if food isn't shared, the issue of where to build modules/defenses could become a bogged down haggling experience, with one player arguing "x" module should be built for reasons "1, 2 and 3," while a second player wants "y" module built for reasons "4 and 5". Even if all resources are tracked independently, the same issue still occurs: the question of "who should be allowed to build the next module/decide what happens in this room" becomes a major point of contention that takes away from the survivor/tower defense features. I can see how this kind of haggling could be an interesting dynamic, but if different players have different ideas on how to play, the game could become a deadlock like the American House of Representatives.



2) Controlling only one hero reduces the complexity of the game. Part of the tension comes from knowing where to place the right character at the right time. If we're only in charge of one hero, our roles become fairly self-explanatory--if we're playing a high wit character, we're parking on a module in between doors. If we're playing Gork, we're opening doors and soloing dungeons. Defending against multiple waves of monsters is reduced to two players agreeing to defend the Northern and Eastern fronts, and two players agreeing to defend the Southern and Western fronts of each dungeon, and to plan their defenses accordingly.



3) opening multiple doors at the same time: in single player, opening the next door is the kairic moment. You're shaping your experience by choosing which door to open. You design the dungeon as you go, creating chokepoints and strongholds and fall back positions as best you can with the rooms you've revealed. If every player is trying to do that at the same time, the tension of the moment is lost--no player can fully invest in the shape of the dungeon. As with the other decisions, the players can negotiate these decision together and hash out which door to open, but it still impedes on the game.





This game is all about control. We control our resources, we control our characters, we control how we respond to our threats. Removing some of that control in a multiplayer experience and spreading it around so that each player is equally in control of the decisions isn't enriching the experience--it's watering down the single player game experience and adding in out-of-game potential for conflict negotiation between players. It'd be like playing the game with three different AI in single player, except the AI might have strongly-worded opinions about the way you're playing, or which door to open, or your mom.



Which brings me back to my ideas about the Response Team/Natives.



The players taking on these other, non-survivor roles are taking on characters with less control in the situation--but they have full autonomy over an array of mechanics unique to their role in the multiplayer experience. Negotiations between players won't be about how to best emulate single player successes in a multiplayer forum, but about how to utilize new and different mechanics to ensure everyone's success. The player in charge of the crystal/resources has the most control over the flow of the game, but due to the increased difficulty as a result of a significantly larger team of characters, has to come up with new strategies relying on the unique abilities of the Response Team/Natives to maximize the possibility of survival.

I agree with the previous mentioned suggestions.

A coop mode (campaign maybe), were the group is split up between several crashed section. Either team has to fulfill a certain objective to continue to the next level. Maybe a larger focus on individual hero's with their respective skills (bit like Warcraft 3's enfo's map) surviving waves and working together.

The vs mode also seems interesting, but I would prefer coop.

I have a suggestion, there are 2 spaceship crashes, and each one of the players spawns in random a spot, you will have to cooperate so each one of the player´s crystals goes into the exit, if one of the players dies, he will have to continue on his own.

I would love there to be like a 2-player coop, where you and another friend team up and travel through the dungeon, yet it is extremely harder than single player, since there are 8 characters in total. The second gamemode would sort of a versus game mode, where one person is the team of prisoners and the other player is the mobs, who are given a certain amount of mobs to spawn in different rooms, so they could decide on where the mobs would come out of.

Last man standing mode. Two players. Both players have their own dungeon and heroes. You open a door. Something happens, mobs attack etc... After all is well and the monsters are dead, you can play a part in deciding the consenquences for the next player as he/she/it opens a door. If there's a monster surge, you could possibly move the spawned monsters, decide where and how they spawn and try to make your competitor's life as miserable as possible. He/she/it does the same to you. This is repeated until one player loses all heroes.



This could be coupled with the crystal - if it is carried to the exit, then the player with the most points (calculated somehow) wins. Or somesuch.