The data does not lie, Endless Dungeon has lost 92% of its playerbase in under 3 weeks, not 3 months, 3 WEEKS, the fastest loss of players I have seen in well, ever. now I do know games do lose a good number of players before stabilizing, but not even humankind tanked in player percentage this fast, it still lasted a couple months before reaching similar loss in numbers,  This is a massive Failure for the game, so this begs the question, what went wrong with Endless Dungeon.

After combing through reviews and discussions about the game, I have come to 2 conclusions. Denuvo and Lack of Content.

1 Denuvo: Lets get this one out of the way, Denuvo was by far the most controversial and debated part of the game long before it came out, hundreds of players declaring that they will not buy the game unless denuvo is removed, Denuvo has a very bad reputation, so bad that many see it as malware, so when Denuvo was announced for Endless Dungeon, it immediately generated a backlash from the community, Amplitudes response to the Backlash was met with even further outrage as their response was seemingly picked and torn apart by the community, whats worse is that Amplitude had removed Denuvo from a previous game humankind after it gained similar backlash, so for them to add it to denuvo despite already knowing the community's general opinion on Denuvo, only soured the community''s stance even further.

2 Lack of Content: this is the big one, From many Reviews Ive been reading, Endless Dungeon has barely a third of the content that Dungeon of the Endless has, yet it demands a price 3 times more than DOTE, now I know some people have claimed that they are 2 different games but thats just not the case, they both share the same floor based levels, similar wave mechanics, crystal defense, turrets, names are almost the same etc, Amplitude even tried to shove a ad of Endless Dungeon into DOTE which was removed due to backlash and was not added into any of their other games,  that practically cements that yes Endless Dungeon is a succesor to DOTE. So it was inevitable that the 2 would be compared, and Sadly Endless Dungeon does not hold up, it has 4 floors compared to DOTEs 12, it has only a third of the amount of characters DOTE has, it has fewer enemy types than DOTE, the Item Mechanics DOTE had is replaced with a bare bones 3 tier upgrade system, instead of 4 characters at a time, you can only have 3 in a group in Endless Dungeon, the melee weapons of DOTE are gone in Endless Dungeon, Infact if we move away from DOTE, the game is still lacking, with boss battles lacking any strategy or tactics and are considered very much pushovers, not to mention seemingly untested parts of the game, so much that when Endless Dungeon released, its co-op system was so broken that it punished players for playing co-op in a co-op heavy game, while this is being resolved currently, that fact it happened in the first place is very unacceptable in such circumstances.

and while yes Endless dungeon does have some good traits, its art, lore, graphics, but in the end all of that is secondary to the more important aspects of a game, content, and gameplay, 2 aspects this game appears to be lacking in.

In the End, this game seems to have failed from releasing with a already bad Reputation thanks to Denuvo, and having only a third of the amount of content its predecessor while demanding 3 times the money. Do you agree with these 2 conclusions? or are there parts of the game that I missed or overlooked?

Keep in mind that I haven't played the final release, but I did play a lot of the near-finished closed beta, the final beta, and have read a lot of Steam reviews.  So I think I have a decent idea of the state of the final game, and here is where I think things went wrong (and I'll also add the disclaimer that I mean for this criticism to be constructive):

1. Denuvo, of course.  When you're doing something new, unconventional, or niche, you cannot afford to turn way a single customer.  Denuvo does that immediately because those who understand Denuvo won't buy a game at full price if they buy it at all.  We've already got a few massive topics discussing Denuvo so I won't elaborate on it any more here.

2. This game could never decide whether it was an action game or a strategy game, and the imbalance between the two genres was never resolved in the central game design.  This has been my primary complaint since the very first OpenDev, and I'm seeing a lot of people in the reviews who are in agreement with my previous comments.  What the devs did here was take DotE which is a strategy-heavy game, take out a lot of the strategy, and then add just a nominal amount of action to replace the missing strategy components.  So the result is that the people who played DotE for the strategy will keep playing DotE because they are disappointed that TED doesn't at least have the same amount of strategy as in DotE, and people who play action shooters/crawlers will play about anything else because they are only getting a minimal amount of action content compared to competing action games.  What we have here is an attempt change the fusion of the two genres that doesn't have enough of either genre to appeal to fans on each side of the line, and that was my original conern after playing the game for the first time.

3. Lots of complaints about content being sparse and mechanics that are missing compared to DotE:

-- The Dust mechanic for lighting rooms that was central to DotE's strategy component is gone.  This gets a lot of complaints as do the fixed spawn points that replaced the dark room spawns.

-- The player roster is tiny, and the team size is small.

-- Major modules are mostly gone.  Simple, user-driven generator placement was replaced by RNG'd generators.

-- The various types of weapons were cut down to 2 types of guns.

-- The different pod types are gone.  (Especially an endless mode.)

-- A run is only 4 floors instead of 12.  (Though there are multiple zones per floor this time around - which seems to get ignored in that calculation.)

-- Armor is gone and items are mostly gone.

-- The mainstream, Overwatch-like art style seems to be negatively compared to DotE's more unique pixel art style.

4. Players seem to be complaining that many of the mechanics are over-complicated:

-- Of course, the timed waves took a very simple mechanic (open a door, get a wave) and changed it to this hard-to-understand timer that the devs struggled to deal with and properly balance from Day 1.  I feel like a lot of dev time was wasted on this mechanic when it should have been scrapped immediately in order to focus on other more important core features.  There was absolutely nothing wrong with DotE's door-based wave mechanic, and most action shooters do a room-based "wave" mechanic where enemies only spawn in new rooms.  So I don't understand the amount of effort that was put into trying to force time-based waves into the game.

-- The elemental rock-paper-scissors system isn't really liked.  Most other roguelites go with a status affix system for elemental mechanics because it makes the elements act more like a bonus mechanic, but the "you have to use this element to kill this type of enemy" mechanic in TED really restricts player choice because you basically have to go with whatever element the enemies require that you use.  (And you have to make sure you always have max-level Light turrets on-hand by the final boss.)

-- The fact that the turrets have a limited range makes a lot of the turrets feel pointless.  In DotE, you could put down a turret and expect it to be effective.  TED's turret range mechanics just make it harder to place and use turrets effectively which complicates things a lot.

-- RNG-based upgrades are hard to deal with.  The level progression in DotE was simple and predictable.  You would know how to build out your party based on who was in it, and there was a lot of strategy there.  The fact that TED's upgrade system is "pick one of the RNG'd perks and hope the downside on that perk isn't too bad" makes the upgrade system unappealing.  Same applies to the Crystal Bot upgrades.

-- The blackout mechanic with no payoff just complicates the game and nothing else.

5. It feels like there was too much focus placed on multiplayer before the core design was completely fleshed out.  My initial impression from the first trailer was that you all wanted to attract the Overwatch/Fortnite crowd with a hip, zany co-op shooter.  Based on statements from the devs, the initial lack of single-player balancing during OpenDev, and the comments about final product itself, the multiplayer component appears to have been focused on way too early in the development cycle and initially took away from development of the core mechanics.  Then at some point there was a realization that the core mechanics needed to be strengthened so then development started on things like meta-progression which made the multiplayer take a back seat when it came to details like if only the host gets meta progression rewards or all of the players get them.  So multiplayer initially got too much focus and then not enough which led to some odd results.

6. Unresolved bugs.  I'm sure that you were all busy in the lead-up to release, but I was surprised by the number of unresolved bugs that I'm seeing reported in the final release.  (Like the run-ending bug where the bot can get stuck in a pillar while walking to the final phase of the final boss was reported quite a while ago.)

So that's my take based on personal experience and review comments.  Some of this could be chalked up to people not understanding that this is supposed to be a different game than DotE, but I guess I could see where someone who hasn't read the "this isn't a DotE sequel" disclaimers from Amplitude staff may not understand this.  You all made the right call to delay the game, but even after playing the final beta I felt like the game should have been delayed further (but I'm sure it was too late by then).  I feel like a lot of the delay time was spent working on the meta-progression system, but I guess my expectation was that other core issues would also be improved behind the scenes by release time.  In any case, I hope you'll be able to smooth things over and get out of the Mixed review range soon - this game has a lot of potential.

SpikedWallMan wrote:

Keep in mind that I haven't played the final release, but I did play a lot of the near-finished closed beta, the final beta, and have read a lot of Steam reviews.  So I think I have a decent idea of the state of the final game, and here is where I think things went wrong (and I'll also add the disclaimer that I mean for this criticism to be constructive):

1. Denuvo, of course.  When you're doing something new, unconventional, or niche, you cannot afford to turn way a single customer.  Denuvo does that immediately because those who understand Denuvo won't buy a game at full price if they buy it at all.  We've already got a few massive topics discussing Denuvo so I won't elaborate on it any more here.

2. This game could never decide whether it was an action game or a strategy game, and the imbalance between the two genres was never resolved in the central game design.  This has been my primary complaint since the very first OpenDev, and I'm seeing a lot of people in the reviews who are in agreement with my previous comments.  What the devs did here was take DotE which is a strategy-heavy game, take out a lot of the strategy, and then add just a nominal amount of action to replace the missing strategy components.  So the result is that the people who played DotE for the strategy will keep playing DotE because they are disappointed that TED doesn't at least have the same amount of strategy as in DotE, and people who play action shooters/crawlers will play about anything else because they are only getting a minimal amount of action content compared to competing action games.  What we have here is an attempt change the fusion of the two genres that doesn't have enough of either genre to appeal to fans on each side of the line, and that was my original conern after playing the game for the first time.

3. Lots of complaints about content being sparse and mechanics that are missing compared to DotE:

-- The Dust mechanic for lighting rooms that was central to DotE's strategy component is gone.  This gets a lot of complaints as do the fixed spawn points that replaced the dark room spawns.

-- The player roster is tiny, and the team size is small.

-- Major modules are mostly gone.  Simple, user-driven generator placement was replaced by RNG'd generators.

-- The various types of weapons were cut down to 2 types of guns.

-- The different pod types are gone.  (Especially an endless mode.)

-- A run is only 4 floors instead of 12.  (Though there are multiple zones per floor this time around - which seems to get ignored in that calculation.)

-- Armor is gone and items are mostly gone.

-- The mainstream, Overwatch-like art style seems to be negatively compared to DotE's more unique pixel art style.

4. Players seem to be complaining that many of the mechanics are over-complicated:

-- Of course, the timed waves took a very simple mechanic (open a door, get a wave) and changed it to this hard-to-understand timer that the devs struggled to deal with and properly balance from Day 1.  I feel like a lot of dev time was wasted on this mechanic when it should have been scrapped immediately in order to focus on other more important core features.  There was absolutely nothing wrong with DotE's door-based wave mechanic, and most action shooters do a room-based "wave" mechanic where enemies only spawn in new rooms.  So I don't understand the amount of effort that was put into trying to force time-based waves into the game.

-- The elemental rock-paper-scissors system isn't really liked.  Most other roguelites go with a status affix system for elemental mechanics because it makes the elements act more like a bonus mechanic, but the "you have to use this element to kill this type of enemy" mechanic in TED really restricts player choice because you basically have to go with whatever element the enemies require that you use.  (And you have to make sure you always have max-level Light turrets on-hand by the final boss.)

-- The fact that the turrets have a limited range makes a lot of the turrets feel pointless.  In DotE, you could put down a turret and expect it to be effective.  TED's turret range mechanics just make it harder to place and use turrets effectively which complicates things a lot.

-- RNG-based upgrades are hard to deal with.  The level progression in DotE was simple and predictable.  You would know how to build out your party based on who was in it, and there was a lot of strategy there.  The fact that TED's upgrade system is "pick one of the RNG'd perks and hope the downside on that perk isn't too bad" makes the upgrade system unappealing.  Same applies to the Crystal Bot upgrades.

-- The blackout mechanic with no payoff just complicates the game and nothing else.

5. It feels like there was too much focus placed on multiplayer before the core design was completely fleshed out.  My initial impression from the first trailer was that you all wanted to attract the Overwatch/Fortnite crowd with a hip, zany co-op shooter.  Based on statements from the devs, the initial lack of single-player balancing during OpenDev, and the comments about final product itself, the multiplayer component appears to have been focused on way too early in the development cycle and initially took away from development of the core mechanics.  Then at some point there was a realization that the core mechanics needed to be strengthened so then development started on things like meta-progression which made the multiplayer take a back seat when it came to details like if only the host gets meta progression rewards or all of the players get them.  So multiplayer initially got too much focus and then not enough which led to some odd results.

6. Unresolved bugs.  I'm sure that you were all busy in the lead-up to release, but I was surprised by the number of unresolved bugs that I'm seeing reported in the final release.  (Like the run-ending bug where the bot can get stuck in a pillar while walking to the final phase of the final boss was reported quite a while ago.)

So that's my take based on personal experience and review comments.  Some of this could be chalked up to people not understanding that this is supposed to be a different game than DotE, but I guess I could see where someone who hasn't read the "this isn't a DotE sequel" disclaimers from Amplitude staff may not understand this.  You all made the right call to delay the game, but even after playing the final beta I felt like the game should have been delayed further (but I'm sure it was too late by then).  I feel like a lot of the delay time was spent working on the meta-progression system, but I guess my expectation was that other core issues would also be improved behind the scenes by release time.  In any case, I hope you'll be able to smooth things over and get out of the Mixed review range soon - this game has a lot of potential.

I agree with alot of these statements, While I have no problem with the art design in its own right, it is one of the good things the game has going, I do want to clarify a bit that I dont think its a step in the right direction for the Endless Franchise. Humankind can get away with its simplistic art because its a brand new game with no connection to any other game (outside of easter egg of course) The Endless Franchise already has its own art style down, with a more realistic somewhat gritty look. so while on its own, the art for Endless Dungeon is fine, I do hope this is only for this game wont be the direction for the Franchise in whole.

I do also agree with the Multiplayer part, Amplitude does not have the best track record when it comes to multiplayer which vary between games from somewhat adequate to downright broken, which is why I have a problem with Endless Dungeons more multiplayer focused approach, infact I had a issue with Ampltidues approach to multiplayer in general starting with Humankinds timed events which are usually attributed with Multiplayer heavy games. Its the equivalent of of a person who has just barely graduated in submarine piloting, instead of taking it bit by bit, slowly getting experience, they immediatly try to navigate down to the mariana trench, they are not skilled enough for it yet. I think Amplitudes should have kept Endless Dungeon as a more singleplayer heavy game, but with more focus on the multiplayer being functional and stable.

Coming back 2 months after it released, and its gotten worse, the game can barely break 200 players on a good day now, and is in the double digits. At best, the game can barely retain 2.5% of the players it had just barely 2 months ago, and this is even after the on the rocks update a few weeks ago as well as multiple hotfix patches. Im sorry Amplitude but with the loss of 97.5% of players in just under 2 months, I have to consider this game, a failure.

At the same time, if I take my example (and there must be a lot of people in the same case), we do not play it because there is still no Cross-Gen available... While, as a reminder, the game was sold by putting this feature forward!

By home we bought the game only for that so it is very regrettable!

Moreover, and it is not for lack of asking the question for a while, we have no news to know when it will be available... I think it’s too much!

It appears that despite only being 5 months old, content updates might be slowing down for Endless Dungeon, despite desperately needing content for the price its asking, in the Viggie cocreation/Gameplay style news post, a clipped text indicates that Viggie will be the last hero to be added to the base game as the the post says Viggie will "COMPLETE the Hero roster" this will mean only 9 heroes will be in the base game. That is half of the base game heroes, (make it a third it you count dlc heroes) of Dungeon of the Endless, the game that this one is clearly inspired and based off of. whether this game will have dlc heroes or not is still unknown. 

Now as mentioned before by mutliple people in this thread, the lack of content is one of the major criticism's this game is facing, and being only 5 months old, this game should be getting content updates for atleast a year and that also means more heroes, the fact that Viggie will be the last base game hero and that we will not be seeing any new heroes in the foreseeable future is not a good sign in that regard, especially since this game is constantly breaking its record low player count, as of now, at a daily peak average of 80-90 players or less than 1% of its playercount at launch, this game can not even break 100 players on the steam charts, and is being beaten by not only Dungeon of the Endless, a game that is 10 years old at this point, but also Endless space 1, their very first game back in 2012.

This is going to be my final Update on the game because I honestly dont want to give the impression or belief that im just a hater thats hating on this game. I genuinely, like everyone else, wanted this game to succeed, but as you can see in the pictures below, The chances for this game to suceed is now in the single digit numbers, and the more I watch, the more Im coming to the conclusion that this game is officially dead.While on one hand this is not the first product to have a mostly negative rating, to my knowledge, the first one was the dlc named awakening,and that was a outsourced product, This on the other hand is a full fledged game, made by amplitude themselves and it now has a mostly negative rating, marking the first time a game made by amplitude to have such a low rating.

Yes the reveiw size is small, only 48 players, this however is still bad as that number corresponds to the number of people still playing the game.With a player count in the double digits and dropping, this game went from almost 10,000 players at launch according to the steamDB, to less than half of 1% of that initial playercount, in only under 4-5 months. This game did not last half a year. Have some of their other games reached double digits before, yes, Dungeon of the endless was in the double digits one time, with its all time low being roughly 84 peak players, which was 9 months after it launched, and it came back from that, but the difference is, Dungeon of the endless was a very well liked and positively rated game in this community, the same cannot be said for Endless Dungeon.

As to why it failed, people in this thread have already gone over a good portion of why it failed, so I will give only a brief explanation.

1: denuvo immediately alienated a significant portion of potential players, especially given that this is a niche game.

2:lack of content, this game does not have content worth the price it is asking, and judging from the fact that Viggie will be the last hero in the base game, not even half a year after release, it appears content updates will also be slowing.

3:bugs, according to many reviews and players, this game is incredibly buggy, with multiple game breaking bugs yet to be resolved, and most of those bugs are in the multiplayer aspect, which to many is the main selling point of the game.

4:Its inability to mesh multiple genres well, Endless dungeon is a mix between action and strategy, but its made in a way that satisfies neither side and players will look for other more focused games instead.

Now can this game still be revived, possibly, its going to take a alot of work and change to revive this game, but given both the state of the game, and the fact content updates already appear to be on the down, I do not believe such a revival is possible right now.

Game just needs a lot more content, that would fix 80% of its issue. But I think they might be cutting their loss and moving on sooner rather than later, never allowing this game to reach it's true potential.

​

Daarkarrow wrote:

​

MachineSpirit wrote:

Has this game been abandoned?

We are working on the next update that should release really 🔜™ 

I doubt anyone is holding there breath at this point...I truly hope you make me eat these words.

Anyway, I came here to leave this: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Meilf/recommended/1485590/ 
My Steam Review

I've been burned so many times before. Luckily, this is half-baked. 

This is my first negative review and I only write it because I believe this could be something amazing, but it just isn't. The direction chosen seems....odd. We went from (Dungeon of the Endless) Pixelated mysterious sci-fi with a horror tinge to cartoony nonsense with a sci-fi tinge. The strength of this game's predecessor is nearly non-existent in favor of an almost friendly comical atmosphere.

You can unlock and complete everything in the game in 20 hours easy. That is...unacceptable. I suppose the hope is that the co-op adds replay-value. Or this hinges on added content. Honestly, this seems like the trope with Amplitude. Wonderful universe, optimized game, quality UI, stellar music and art, yet such a small amount of content. This game being the worst offender.

The strong points of the gameplay come from it's predecessor: unfortunately, it seems watered-down in comparison. Almost too easy. Not enough strategy is implemented in your runs.

I LIKE that you can view a map and plan your route in the HUB area, and then know what types of turrets to research and guns to go for, but it feels like I am stretching to find any amount of strategy beyond this.

I think a major flaw is changing the way creatures spawn in this compared to Dungeon of the Endless. In DotE, you power rooms with Dust. As long as a room is powered, creatures cannot spawn in it. Flipside, of course, is that un-powered rooms CAN spawn monsters. Small amounts of Dust would be gained by killing monsters and from opening doors. This added a wonderful layer of strategy as you could set up kill-rooms and generate Dust whilst leaving certain pathways safe. Further, you would have to plan your escape route. If done properly it could be a breeze, or if done poorly (or encounter bad-luck) then you fight your way to the exit. This was exciting. Removing this system removed a layer of depth that I rather enjoyed.

The system in Endless Dungeon is just too easy and shallow. To be fair, the monster spawn points aren't too bad an idea and I can find enjoyment in squashing them in their spawns. I also can respect the formula. To be clear: It doesn't suck, but leaves much to be wanted.

I find myself researching the same things every run. The turrets are generally 1 short-range high-damage and one long-range medium-damage for each element (except only one turret for regular old bullets). Then you build the damage amplifier to increase damage to those guys and you're done.

I tend not to generate a lot of food. Industry for turrets and science for more turrets. Food is used to buy medpacks (which I rarely need, if ever) and to upgrade your character. They've implemented a randomized upgrade system where you have to find the upgrade station and choose which upgrade to buy out of three random cards. These upgrades are generally "make your character ability more 'efficient' :/ " or "+50% knockback" or "25% shove damage" or "10% attack speed" or "20% attack damage, but take 20% more damage" or other mindless additions. WHAT A TRAGEDY! This is TOO generic.

I pick whatever weapons give me the elements I need, despite the minor variances in how they shoot. They are honestly very uninspired. They either shoot quickly, shoot slowly, or need to be charged. bleugh

I pick whatever characters need quests done and plan my routes around where they need to go. As NONE of them pique the grim-dark sci-fi nerd in me, but I am a completionist.

I bought every upgrade to every gun, despite their tedious additions (10% attack power oh my, penetrates 1 additional monster hot damn, +15% weapon speed jeez.) simply because it was so affordable after just a few runs.

There are Pros, don't get me wrong. The gameplay seems streamlined. It is wonderfully optimized. Despite the cartoony nature of the characters, the visuals are done very well. Each floor is unique and interesting, definitely some soul there. Of COURSE the soundtrack rocks. I like the addition of Boss Battles, however, the actual implementation, again, leaves me wanting.

I suppose that's where we are now. It left me wanting. Very little content. Very odd direction in characters and setting. There is SOMETHING GOOD here, but it's buried under strange decisions. It feels like the developers (or publisher >.>) wanted to appeal to a particular crowd. Why that crowd wasn't the fan-base of the original is beyond me. Despite not recommending this to others, I will continue to play when new content is released and truly hope this EVENTUALLY becomes a deeper, more rewarding, higher strategy, and darker set, game.

||AD.|| 01/18/2024 Updates have been sparse and focusing on issues that were present at release and not so much about changing gameplay or the way things upgrade. So, as of now, 3 months after release, still no real change to the gameplay. Perhaps should've released this month or next instead of shortly before all the end of year holidays? 

 ||AD.|| 01/29/2024 Skin-pack cross-over, no change to gameplay still...

||AD.|| 04/08/2024 They seem more concerned with platitudes like 'connecting with the player' and 'community management' rather than improving upon the game itself. Pretty clear at this point nothing grand will happen. More power to them, I suppose. Good luck with whatever game this is. Hopefully Amplitude will realize the diamond in the rough they have with DotE some day...

||AD.|| 04/08/2024 cont. As I read more and more reviews, Positive reviews seem to be people who are confused as to why the game is viewed so negatively. To that I say: "Go play Dungeon of the Endless." It's cheap and beyond worth it. To the positive reviews that say: "This is a 'different game' so you can't hold it to the standard of DotE." To that I say: "It is CLEARLY derivative of DotE, thus I can do nothing but compare it to DotE. Go play Dungeon of the Endless."

||AD.|| 05/19/2024 No news since February (which was a community outreach post). Last "hotfix" (April) only adjusted the description of their cross-over skin-pack. Time of Death, Doctor? Maybe some much needed restructuring is taking place.

||AD.|| 06/14/2024 All quiet until a cryptic message on the G2G Forums from an Admin in response to a post asking if the game is abandoned: 06/11/24 Daarkarrow wrote: " We are working on the next update that should release really 🔜™ "

Also, this review by Capt. Autismo caught my eye for being the only positive review I completely agreed with: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TakenoDutchman/recommended/1485590/

Verdict: Fine title for some good coop fun if bought during a sale.

Good framework, but stuck in mediocrity due to shallow gameplay that reduces replayability: not great for a rogue-lite title.

Neat little game that is pretty enough to look at within the Endless Universe.

- The more Marvel-style and Gen-Z dialogue is not for everyone, given the franchise I can understand that it puts soms people off.

- It does not add a whole lot of depth to Endless Lore with pretty much no species representation from Endless Space/Legend: a missed opportunity.

Gameplay is mostly solid, a real time top-down shooter.

- for further replayability it could use more depth; compared to cheaper rogue-lite the mechanical depth is lacking.

- the heroes have their own skills and attributes, but the game UI is not properly utilised to display an indepth detailed breakdown of exact number/formulas: this compounds onto the shallow gameplay feeling.

- Playing solo is not a dreadful experience, the NPC's play somewhat competently, however you cannot set their behaviour or actions, e.g. Dragon Age Origin. It would be great if you could make them boost/repair turrets on their own.

- The buildables are unbalanced, as it seems to aim at a paper-rock-scissor principle, but some options are clearly superior regardless of circumstance while others are utter dreck even when play into their designated enemy type.

- The weapons are bland; they lack depth and the excitement of substantial/gamechanging legendary upgrades.

​

ThePilot wrote:

Anyway, I came here to leave this: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Meilf/recommended/1485590/ 
My Steam Review

I've been burned so many times before. Luckily, this is half-baked. 

This is my first negative review and I only write it because I believe this could be something amazing, but it just isn't. The direction chosen seems....odd. We went from (Dungeon of the Endless) Pixelated mysterious sci-fi with a horror tinge to cartoony nonsense with a sci-fi tinge. The strength of this game's predecessor is nearly non-existent in favor of an almost friendly comical atmosphere.

Thanks for the review!

I wanted to clarify that Endless Dungeon is not a direct sequel to Dungeon of the Endless (otherwise it will be called DotE2). It is clear that we took some elements that inspired us, but we wanted to try something different. 

Edit: You make it sound like it is the only negative review you ever wrote (here is a personal feeling), while you have other negative reviews (but yes in terms of the timeline it was your first negative).

​

Daarkarrow wrote:

​

ThePilot wrote:

Anyway, I came here to leave this: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Meilf/recommended/1485590/ 
My Steam Review

I've been burned so many times before. Luckily, this is half-baked. 

This is my first negative review and I only write it because I believe this could be something amazing, but it just isn't. The direction chosen seems....odd. We went from (Dungeon of the Endless) Pixelated mysterious sci-fi with a horror tinge to cartoony nonsense with a sci-fi tinge. The strength of this game's predecessor is nearly non-existent in favor of an almost friendly comical atmosphere.

Thanks for the review!

I wanted to clarify that Endless Dungeon is not a direct sequel to Dungeon of the Endless (otherwise it will be called DotE2). It is clear that we took some elements that inspired us, but we wanted to try something different. 

Edit: You make it sound like it is the only negative review you ever wrote (here is a personal feeling), while you have other negative reviews (but yes in terms of the timeline it was your first negative).

Thank-you for taking the time to respond. I am not trying to be antagonistic, simply critical. It is one of 4 negative reviews I have written, and you correctly surmised it was my first.

I never said it was a sequel, I said:
""To that I say: "It is CLEARLY derivative of DotE, thus I can do nothing but compare it to DotE."""

Your average consumer doesn't care what you "say". They only see the product. Your product SCREAMS DotE.
You put the Endless tag on it. You put Dungeon on it. You yourselves state that it is "OF DotE".
Here is what was told to us originally by your studio:

 (Excerpt from an article in the News on the Dungeon of the Endless Steam Page from 2020)

Hang on a minute! Crashed in the ruins of an ancient precursor empire? A mysterious crystal to power their wondrous technology? Turrets to fend of endless waves of enemies that make escape virtually impossible? All of this will sound very familiar to many of you, bringing back memories of our first venture into the rogue-lite genre, Dungeon of the Endless.

That spiritual ancestor to Endless Dungeon was born from an idea – more of a joke, really – kicked around at one of our community events. A small team of devs assembled a prototype, and we knew we had something special on our hands with our “Roguelike Tower-Defense Dungeon Crawler”: It’s as wild a ride as that mouthful of a genre description. Yet we did not expect it to become such a hit with our fans, a passionate community quickly growing around it.

We’ve learned a lot from making that game, the feedback our community gave us, and the stories they told of their best moments with it. So we’ve taken it back to the drawing board and built an entirely new experience with the same spirit, emphasizing direct control of the action and a great multiplayer experience, while keeping the same focus on tactical combat, wave-based defenses, and exploration!

You should not argue that it's "a different game" whilst you heavy-hand its connection to DotE. Is that truly the hill you want to die on? What do you think people expect when they see all this leading up to the release? If you guys were so intent on making something completely new out of the inspiration you gained from making DotE, then you should have further removed yourselves from the universe. Hindsight is 20/20; Foresight is forever. I suspect it was a calculated move, though.

You marketed to multiple demographics, and then appealed to a very singular demographic on release. Was this due to naiveté or from disconnection? Or was this intentional to wrack up sales? Or was it ignorance? From the perspective of the consumer, how are we to know you aren't shooting for the dollar bills and throwing away your stated values. I am not suggesting any of this, merely glimpsing the mind of your average player.

My response to Capt. Autismo's review seems pertinent:

I agree with everything you say, but will retain my negative review.

I will say you're saying the same thing as negative reviews but you're willing to disassociate it intelligently from DotE, and call out other faults such as not utilizing the universe it is already in. This hits the nail on the head for why there is so much anger surrounding this release.

I think this game would have benefited from not stamping the Endless tag on it, as it poorly represents the established universe in conjunction with all previous titles. However, if that were the route taken then I (and many others) wouldn't even have had this game on their radar.

SpikedWallMan expertly documents the major issues.

This portion was particularly good:

SpikedWallMan wrote:

2. This game could never decide whether it was an action game or a strategy game, and the imbalance between the two genres was never resolved in the central game design.  This has been my primary complaint since the very first OpenDev, and I'm seeing a lot of people in the reviews who are in agreement with my previous comments.  What the devs did here was take DotE which is a strategy-heavy game, take out a lot of the strategy, and then add just a nominal amount of action to replace the missing strategy components.  So the result is that the people who played DotE for the strategy will keep playing DotE because they are disappointed that TED doesn't at least have the same amount of strategy as in DotE, and people who play action shooters/crawlers will play about anything else because they are only getting a minimal amount of action content compared to competing action games.  What we have here is an attempt change the fusion of the two genres that doesn't have enough of either genre to appeal to fans on each side of the line, and that was my original conern after playing the game for the first time.

To summarize: Not enough Strategy, low quality Action. 
The vast majority of Steam reviews praising this game are those with minimal experience in the genre looking to co-op a twin-stick shooter with their buddy.

@Daarkarrow
I do not expect a response to my rambling as your hands are probably tied, but I want you to know that the minimal response you gave was appreciated, and that I will still follow the game if it heads in a positive direction. I'd rather be the jerk than be right, in the end...
I was hurt by this game, and I wanted Amplitude to know, for whatever its worth. 

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Daarkarrow wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

@Daarkarrow
I do not expect a response to my rambling as your hands are probably tied, but I want you to know that the minimal response you gave was appreciated, and that I will still follow the game if it heads in a positive direction. I'd rather be the jerk than be right, in the end...
I was hurt by this game, and I wanted Amplitude to know, for whatever its worth. 

No worries, I mean I like interaction with the players as in the end, it is my job to do :P

I totally understand that with the word "Dungeon" (but in a way is a "dungeon") or the connection could be a "direct sequel" from DotE. As it was not the case we see Endless Dungeon as a spiritual successor, meaning that to "us" is not 100% direct. We took some elements and then tried to innovate/change from DotE. An example here is the full control of the heroes + Twin Stick Shooter elements (an outside example could be taking the Assasin Creed franchise and changing it to a DotE style, top-down with no direct control, which could be amazing, but I am sure a lot of elements in the game cannot be the same).

I am the first one who has been reading most comments since day 1 of release (and well earlier than that), but there were elements that with the current gameplay were not possible (like the use of dust to turn On/Off rooms, as it was not working at all with the fixed spawn, etc.) to bring from DotE.
We have tried to make it crystal clear from day 1 that this was not a DotE2 but I do understand that a lot of players were expecting that or arrived here expecting that.

Then the balance strategy/action has been something the team has in mind and tried to work with the different balancing and changes.
In the past, there were builds in which you could finish the entire game without any turret (which could be funny), but there has been some balancing in order to mix these 2 elements of strategy/action (while I know there are people that they do not want this, but it is something that from a creative perspective we wanted to have). There are other elements that I'm sure can be improved and others that in order to make it more impactful will need an entire rework (which I cannot promise to happen).

I personally think if you guys scrapped the weapons and level-up system currently implemented in favor of more unique weapons and also different more stylized level ups based on the character, you'd be rocking it. That can't be that code-breaking, right?
Quality over quantity. Circling back to my review, every system is too general and bland.
Get rid of the rock/paper/scissors turret system, it is far too simplistic. This is much harder to do I imagine.
It's strange not seeing FIDSI, and I realize the traditional Dust system won't work here, but I am sure there is another use for Dust :/ 

I'd like to clarify it's obviously not a 'direct sequel', but people were expecting more given DotE. Also, people were expecting a different setting given the rest of the Endless Universe.

I will say Viggie seems to be a step in the right direction, but personally I will wait until something is done about the strategy elements before I invest my time into Endless Dungeon, again. 
Good luck over there. 

I was gonna let it be, but I can't.
I have now multiple times said very succinctly that this game is derivative of DotE, NOT a "Direct Sequel".

To use your Assassin's Creed example:
If I were Ubisoft and wanted to try something different using Assassin's Creed as my inspiration, and made a game called "Creed of the Assassin" where the differences were:
   -Graphics are happy and cartoony (appealing to a different demographic hopefully) as opposed to the established realism in the Franchise
   -Simplify the combat system to be just a knife attack, sword swing, and crossbow shot
   -Implemented a strategic system where knife beats crossbow, crossbow beats sword, and sword beats knife

   -Flavor the setting with Assassin's Creed, but not let it hold any substance of the established universe
   -Made 9 different "assassins", each with 3 abilities that separate them from each other, where they level up their strength, dexterity, or vitality as the game progresses 

   -Changed the camera to be Isometric top-down

Leading up to release we tell our community that this "isn't Assassin's Creed, but we learned a lot from our time making Assassin's Creed and want to advance the genre further". 
The community buys it! They all get the game or follow it expecting to see "What's next for Assassin's Creed!" 

Upon release, the community we marketed to explodes over how derivative it is, constantly comparing it to Assassin's Creed and showing where it falls short of it's predecessor. 
(Personally, I would immediately think that Ubisoft was just using their franchise name to sell the game.)

Are you picking up what I'm putting down, @Daarkarrow ? Ya'll tied the game to DotE, and now it is your Ball-and-Chain whether you agree with it or not. It is glaringly obvious this is not a 'direct sequel', and no one ever said as much. IT IS DERIVATIVE.

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P0ndering wrote:

ThePilot wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote:

To summarize: Not enough Strategy, low quality Action. 
The vast majority of Steam reviews praising this game are those with minimal experience in the genre looking to co-op a twin-stick shooter with their buddy.

I have been playing strategy games since the 80's and I thought this game was fantastic. No offense but you might want to add a bit more "IMHO" around your postings. I think the issue they ran into was a number of users had their feelings hurt as this game was different than the first one and they expected a pure strategy game. In terms of a combination of action and strategy with great coop elements this game hits it out of the park (IMHO). 

Those users then banded together and review bombed it therefore actually lowering the chance of a getting any further game at all. 

Why do I need to preface my honest opinion with "in my honest opinion" for you to know that it is my honest opinion...
Also, no one "banded together". This wasn't a "conspiracy of the butthurt fanboys" who couldn't allow Amplitude their success...Seriously?
How about instead of your platitudes, you tell me exactly why I am wrong, other than defending it because I come across as a bully. I, at least, have the level of respect to lay bare my analysis (albeit critical) of the game. 

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Daarkarrow wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

I was gonna let it be, but I can't.
I have now multiple times said very succinctly that this game is derivative of DotE, NOT a "Direct Sequel".

To use your Assassin's Creed example:
If I were Ubisoft and wanted to try something different using Assassin's Creed as my inspiration, and made a game called "Creed of the Assassin" where the differences were:
   -Graphics are happy and cartoony (appealing to a different demographic hopefully) as opposed to the established realism in the Franchise
   -Simplify the combat system to be just a knife attack, sword swing, and crossbow shot
   -Implemented a strategic system where knife beats crossbow, crossbow beats sword, and sword beats knife

   -Flavor the setting with Assassin's Creed, but not let it hold any substance of the established universe
   -Made 9 different "assassins", each with 3 abilities that separate them from each other, where they level up their strength, dexterity, or vitality as the game progresses 

   -Changed the camera to be Isometric top-down

Leading up to release we tell our community that this "isn't Assassin's Creed, but we learned a lot from our time making Assassin's Creed and want to advance the genre further". 
The community buys it! They all get the game or follow it expecting to see "What's next for Assassin's Creed!" 

Upon release, the community we marketed to explodes over how derivative it is, constantly comparing it to Assassin's Creed and showing where it falls short of it's predecessor. 
(Personally, I would immediately think that Ubisoft was just using their franchise name to sell the game.)

Are you picking up what I'm putting down, @Daarkarrow ? Ya'll tied the game to DotE, and now it is your Ball-and-Chain whether you agree with it or not. It is glaringly obvious this is not a 'direct sequel', and no one ever said as much. IT IS DERIVATIVE.

Yes, i totally get your point. We have tried to differentiate in the communication to make it clear that it was not a direct sequel but I agree that we didn't success to the 100%

People was expecting and wanted a sequel, and therefore some suggestions was around going back to DotE2 mechanics (which I'm the first one that love the game), which was out of scope (not an easy solution).

ThePilot wrote:
I personally think if you guys scrapped the weapons and level-up system currently implemented in favor of more unique weapons and also different more stylized level ups based on the character, you'd be rocking it. That can't be that code-breaking, right?
Quality over quantity. Circling back to my review, every system is too general and bland.
Get rid of the rock/paper/scissors turret system, it is far too simplistic. This is much harder to do I imagine.
It's strange not seeing FIDSI, and I realize the traditional Dust system won't work here, but I am sure there is another use for Dust :/ 

Ah yes I can tell you that a lot of things can do a "code-breaking" and there are some ideas, like certain things to include as weapon chips (that could differentiate a lot of the weapons) that the base system does not support, so it is not something we can just simply add. 

You do not have FIDSI but do have FIDS so we tried to keep most of our resources in the base game as our "identity"  (Amplitude Games)

But I agree that I would love more unique weapons or upgrades that change completely how a hero is played.

I smiled after reading this. In a good way. Thank-you :)
Let me say...I have never been so proactive about communicating my disappointment for any other game ever. If this doesn't show the importance of your game to people like me, then nothing will.

Sooooo, yes. What if every character had their own weapon? (like DotE) 
You'd be providing not only more value to the player, but also you could generate the love/following you want to see for each character, which is something you guys are outwardly focused on. 

Make everything revolve around each character. Give someone a sword for pete's sake! Remove the Leveling stations and bring it back to DotE-style progression where the food heals and also is your method of leveling. Make each level provide basic stat-boosts and also occasionally another skill (or something)(like-DotE). Do you not see the magic in that formula? I'm certain you must. 
It would require a substantial rework, yes, but at this point if you intend on making this game as popular as you seem to want, I see no other way forward. You won't win people like me back without some strong rework. If you're too deep, then learn what you can from this experience, and then make DotE 2.
You now have strong irrefutable data to suggest that will be a hit and make sales, making it a worthwhile proposal to SEGA.

If your intention remains that this is not a continuation of the DotE genre (despite what your studio as before stated) then CHANGE THE NAME and stop saying things like, "We took some elements and then tried to innovate/change from DotE". Because you didn't innovate, you derived...heavily. 

Obviously changing the name would be the wrong route to take, and you guys should just scrap your stance and make it DotE2. CLEARLY this is what your fan-base wants, and what you knowingly or unknowingly led your community to believe. 

Again, thank-you for the response. I realize I am being extra difficult. I love your games (mostly/obviously) and also sincerely respect your universe.

​

ThePilot wrote:

Obviously changing the name would be the wrong route to take, and you guys should just scrap your stance and make it DotE2. CLEARLY this is what your fan-base wants, and what you knowingly or unknowingly led your community to believe. 

At the the point that the game is at now, I think that a better choice would be to just start from scratch on DotE2 instead of trying to turn TED into DotE2.  Trying to take this game and rework it would be a massive effort that would probably not result in the outcome that you are hoping for.

Also, if they wanted to try a twin-stick dungeon crawler on the space station again, I would be interested if they made something along the lines of Enter the Gungeon.  (Hint, hint, @DaarkArrow.)

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SpikedWallMan wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

Obviously changing the name would be the wrong route to take, and you guys should just scrap your stance and make it DotE2. CLEARLY this is what your fan-base wants, and what you knowingly or unknowingly led your community to believe. 

1. At the the point that the game is at now, I think that a better choice would be to just start from scratch on DotE2 instead of trying to turn TED into DotE2.  Trying to take this game and rework it would be a massive effort that would probably not result in the outcome that you are hoping for.

2. Also, if they wanted to try a twin-stick dungeon crawler on the space station again, I would be interested if they made something along the lines of Enter the Gungeon.  (Hint, hint, @DaarkArrow.)

1. I wasn't very clear but that is what I was saying. As in, instead of changing the name (which isn't really an option), then they should move on and work on DotE2 since it clearly would sell and would be an easy pitch to their publisher I'd imagine. ((Assuming it hasn't already been pitched...or assuming they didn't already pitch ED as the "next DotE" to them like they (accidentally, apparently?) did to the consumer.))
2. Right? I was thinking: ED should be heavily based on the character's and give each one their own weapon. Like, concentrate on the individuality of the character above all else. I feel for ED this is the only option to make the game relevant.

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Roccoonox wrote:

....

I agree with this. The action being added was never my problem, it's that the action that was added is too basic. Beyond that, the Rock Paper Scissors strategy is not only too simple, but hilariously bland and basic... Had this game come out in the early 2000s it could've gotten away with that. The anger comes from the fact that they have proven their understanding and commitment to much deeper strategy and still opted for the most basic system imaginable.

The art direction/universe adjacency was more of the icing on top the turd cake.
In my review I essentially say that despite the (personally) unwelcome change in art direction, it is still masterfully executed.

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Roccoonox wrote:

I never got hooked on the 4X games, Dote really is how I got here. I don't have much knowledge around the Endless universe and this seems to be a big deal with people in the community as I read stuff from players, so I don't know how important it is for the fans of the universe to have a game in the franchise not being visually/vibe "matching" with the rest, but considering both Dote and TED deviates A LOT from the other games, I personally see this "missmatch" of vibe as a good thing, actually. It is for others publics, no? Is the lore from TED that important for the universe that the change of vibe feels too much out of place and kills it?​

By the by, are you a fan of any universe? Like...a "fan". Like you REALLY like the universe and its setting and deep lore... Do you dig Star Wars because it is(was) a gritty sci-fantasy with lightsabers and cool sound effects? What if they made the next Star Wars movie into a fairy-tale high fantasy set planet-side with no lightsabers and a Disney channel storyline? Would you go see it? Would you be upset and/or feel swindled?

​

ThePilot wrote:

​

Roccoonox wrote:

I never got hooked on the 4X games, Dote really is how I got here. I don't have much knowledge around the Endless universe and this seems to be a big deal with people in the community as I read stuff from players, so I don't know how important it is for the fans of the universe to have a game in the franchise not being visually/vibe "matching" with the rest, but considering both Dote and TED deviates A LOT from the other games, I personally see this "missmatch" of vibe as a good thing, actually. It is for others publics, no? Is the lore from TED that important for the universe that the change of vibe feels too much out of place and kills it?​

By the by, are you a fan of any universe? Like...a "fan". Like you REALLY like the universe and its setting and deep lore... Do you dig Star Wars because it is(was) a gritty sci-fantasy with lightsabers and cool sound effects? What if they made the next Star Wars movie into a fairy-tale high fantasy set planet-side with no lightsabers and a Disney channel storyline? Would you go see it? Would you be upset and/or feel swindled?

Oh, I get your point. I don't think Im a big fan of any universe, but I would get totally mad if someone decided to just edit Saramago's writing style just so it gets easier to digest to newer readers. I think I get the feeling kkkk.

About Dote and TED, do you think Dote was a much better portrait of the universe than TED? If so, would mind explaining me like in which points it did it better?

I ask this because for me, when I played Endless Legend and Space 1, they both seemed so distant from Dote thematically. Dote was far more "grim humourous", while Legend and Space 1 were more "serious". TED really is way more light and happier, but I think it was more "informative" about the universe than Dote. I remember Dote being set in Auriga and thats it for me, I don't remember much more how it linked "informatively" with the universe. So maybe it linked well not "informatively" but with the general vibe and/or races of players and monsters depicted? Again, I'm not very versed with Legends and Space, so I might have missed a ton of the universe in Dote.

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Roccoonox wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

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Roccoonox wrote:

...​

...

...

DotE had its issues for me, too, but were easily overlooked for various reasons. In terms of art style it IS a different style than Space and Legends, but the soul is still there. Its grimdark sci-fi, and it's done well. I didn't really think the humor was good, to be honest, but it was...charming. 

For ED, as another steam review puts it: "- The more Marvel-style and Gen-Z dialogue is not for everyone, given the franchise I can understand that it puts soms people off." - Capt. Autismo

To paint the picture better, the lore in Endless Dungeon seems to actively seek to develop its own home in the universe, whilst not "fitting in" with the established universe very well. Which would honestly be okay in my book, if the actual game was enjoyable for me. At the end of the day, I will concede (and already conceded) that the art, setting, sounds, optimization, and even the dialogue and lore are all hallmarks of a very creative studio. But why did they sacrifice their tenant to "Innovate". Bottom line, a large chunk of the current fan-base is there for the innovation.

I am too jaded with Action/Strategy games. Being simple/braindead ain't gonna cut it for me. Which is why I actively played/followed this game to begin with. DotE is a unique and innovative game with heavy strategy. When I am told that they will make another game heavily inspired by their experience making DotE, to "further the genre", then of course I think this will be the next greatest thing in the genre they themselves made. Only to see it come out with barely any of the signatures of their previous game that "heavily inspired" it. Essentially, it is extremely derivative whilst not being particularly innovative.

So, to the layman with little experience in the industry, this game is fine. Very....accessible. 
But, to the experienced strategy-player, the exact kind of person who would seek out a game like DotE and then further be interested in its supposed successor, this has been a tragedy in the Nth degree.

Here is an interesting metric to look at, by the way: ENDLESS™ Dungeon - Steam Charts

[[AD. As I re-read this discussion, I am stricken with the thought that possibly Amplitudes demographic may be in two major camps. Which could be where the disconnect is for me, and others. They appealed to one camp far more than the other. But inadvertently(possibly?) marketed to both.]]

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Roccoonox wrote:

[[AD. As I re-read this discussion, I am stricken with the thought that possibly Amplitudes demographic may be in two major camps. Which could be where the disconnect is for me, and others. They appealed to one camp far more than the other. But inadvertently(possibly?) marketed to both.]]

yeah, I was considering the same, but, is it really a second camp? Considering their previous games I thought TED was supposed to try appealing to people from outside their fan base that seems to be more interested in the 4X

I believe that Camp 1 is more interested in the innovation from Amplitude's previous titles whilst also enjoying the optimization and simple-yet-complex gameplay. Camp 2 loves the art(visuals, soundtracks, stories, lore etc..) and the fact that it's a game they can understand due to the simplicity and accessibility. And you may be right, they are reaching for a new demographic with this game. Make it more 'action-based' and 'modern' to appeal to young-uns.

Humankind was an attempt to reel in 4x players. It was heavily-hyped as a possible Civilization(the game series)-killer. But...yea. Denuvo. And it was far too basic. It also just kinda sucked. Horrible release, buggy as hell for far too long, Denuvo was attached to it for far too long. And it caused an uproar in the community and a review bomb back at that launch as well. You'd think they'd learn. Or maybe SEGA is forcing them. Who knows...they won't(can't?) say.
However, even that failure-to-launch game is doing 100x better than ED is: HUMANKIND™ - Steam Charts 
But look...HUMANKIND's competition: Sid Meier's Civilization VI - Steam Charts

ED can't even compete with it's predecessor: Dungeon of the ENDLESS™ - Steam Charts