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Roccoonox wrote:

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I agree with this. The action being added was never my problem, it's that the action that was added is too basic. Beyond that, the Rock Paper Scissors strategy is not only too simple, but hilariously bland and basic... Had this game come out in the early 2000s it could've gotten away with that. The anger comes from the fact that they have proven their understanding and commitment to much deeper strategy and still opted for the most basic system imaginable.

The art direction/universe adjacency was more of the icing on top the turd cake.
In my review I essentially say that despite the (personally) unwelcome change in art direction, it is still masterfully executed.

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Roccoonox wrote:

I never got hooked on the 4X games, Dote really is how I got here. I don't have much knowledge around the Endless universe and this seems to be a big deal with people in the community as I read stuff from players, so I don't know how important it is for the fans of the universe to have a game in the franchise not being visually/vibe "matching" with the rest, but considering both Dote and TED deviates A LOT from the other games, I personally see this "missmatch" of vibe as a good thing, actually. It is for others publics, no? Is the lore from TED that important for the universe that the change of vibe feels too much out of place and kills it?​

By the by, are you a fan of any universe? Like...a "fan". Like you REALLY like the universe and its setting and deep lore... Do you dig Star Wars because it is(was) a gritty sci-fantasy with lightsabers and cool sound effects? What if they made the next Star Wars movie into a fairy-tale high fantasy set planet-side with no lightsabers and a Disney channel storyline? Would you go see it? Would you be upset and/or feel swindled?

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ThePilot wrote:

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Roccoonox wrote:

I never got hooked on the 4X games, Dote really is how I got here. I don't have much knowledge around the Endless universe and this seems to be a big deal with people in the community as I read stuff from players, so I don't know how important it is for the fans of the universe to have a game in the franchise not being visually/vibe "matching" with the rest, but considering both Dote and TED deviates A LOT from the other games, I personally see this "missmatch" of vibe as a good thing, actually. It is for others publics, no? Is the lore from TED that important for the universe that the change of vibe feels too much out of place and kills it?​

By the by, are you a fan of any universe? Like...a "fan". Like you REALLY like the universe and its setting and deep lore... Do you dig Star Wars because it is(was) a gritty sci-fantasy with lightsabers and cool sound effects? What if they made the next Star Wars movie into a fairy-tale high fantasy set planet-side with no lightsabers and a Disney channel storyline? Would you go see it? Would you be upset and/or feel swindled?

Oh, I get your point. I don't think Im a big fan of any universe, but I would get totally mad if someone decided to just edit Saramago's writing style just so it gets easier to digest to newer readers. I think I get the feeling kkkk.

About Dote and TED, do you think Dote was a much better portrait of the universe than TED? If so, would mind explaining me like in which points it did it better?

I ask this because for me, when I played Endless Legend and Space 1, they both seemed so distant from Dote thematically. Dote was far more "grim humourous", while Legend and Space 1 were more "serious". TED really is way more light and happier, but I think it was more "informative" about the universe than Dote. I remember Dote being set in Auriga and thats it for me, I don't remember much more how it linked "informatively" with the universe. So maybe it linked well not "informatively" but with the general vibe and/or races of players and monsters depicted? Again, I'm not very versed with Legends and Space, so I might have missed a ton of the universe in Dote.

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Roccoonox wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

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Roccoonox wrote:

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DotE had its issues for me, too, but were easily overlooked for various reasons. In terms of art style it IS a different style than Space and Legends, but the soul is still there. Its grimdark sci-fi, and it's done well. I didn't really think the humor was good, to be honest, but it was...charming. 

For ED, as another steam review puts it: "- The more Marvel-style and Gen-Z dialogue is not for everyone, given the franchise I can understand that it puts soms people off." - Capt. Autismo

To paint the picture better, the lore in Endless Dungeon seems to actively seek to develop its own home in the universe, whilst not "fitting in" with the established universe very well. Which would honestly be okay in my book, if the actual game was enjoyable for me. At the end of the day, I will concede (and already conceded) that the art, setting, sounds, optimization, and even the dialogue and lore are all hallmarks of a very creative studio. But why did they sacrifice their tenant to "Innovate". Bottom line, a large chunk of the current fan-base is there for the innovation.

I am too jaded with Action/Strategy games. Being simple/braindead ain't gonna cut it for me. Which is why I actively played/followed this game to begin with. DotE is a unique and innovative game with heavy strategy. When I am told that they will make another game heavily inspired by their experience making DotE, to "further the genre", then of course I think this will be the next greatest thing in the genre they themselves made. Only to see it come out with barely any of the signatures of their previous game that "heavily inspired" it. Essentially, it is extremely derivative whilst not being particularly innovative.

So, to the layman with little experience in the industry, this game is fine. Very....accessible. 
But, to the experienced strategy-player, the exact kind of person who would seek out a game like DotE and then further be interested in its supposed successor, this has been a tragedy in the Nth degree.

Here is an interesting metric to look at, by the way: ENDLESS™ Dungeon - Steam Charts

[[AD. As I re-read this discussion, I am stricken with the thought that possibly Amplitudes demographic may be in two major camps. Which could be where the disconnect is for me, and others. They appealed to one camp far more than the other. But inadvertently(possibly?) marketed to both.]]

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Roccoonox wrote:

[[AD. As I re-read this discussion, I am stricken with the thought that possibly Amplitudes demographic may be in two major camps. Which could be where the disconnect is for me, and others. They appealed to one camp far more than the other. But inadvertently(possibly?) marketed to both.]]

yeah, I was considering the same, but, is it really a second camp? Considering their previous games I thought TED was supposed to try appealing to people from outside their fan base that seems to be more interested in the 4X

I believe that Camp 1 is more interested in the innovation from Amplitude's previous titles whilst also enjoying the optimization and simple-yet-complex gameplay. Camp 2 loves the art(visuals, soundtracks, stories, lore etc..) and the fact that it's a game they can understand due to the simplicity and accessibility. And you may be right, they are reaching for a new demographic with this game. Make it more 'action-based' and 'modern' to appeal to young-uns.

Humankind was an attempt to reel in 4x players. It was heavily-hyped as a possible Civilization(the game series)-killer. But...yea. Denuvo. And it was far too basic. It also just kinda sucked. Horrible release, buggy as hell for far too long, Denuvo was attached to it for far too long. And it caused an uproar in the community and a review bomb back at that launch as well. You'd think they'd learn. Or maybe SEGA is forcing them. Who knows...they won't(can't?) say.
However, even that failure-to-launch game is doing 100x better than ED is: HUMANKIND™ - Steam Charts 
But look...HUMANKIND's competition: Sid Meier's Civilization VI - Steam Charts

ED can't even compete with it's predecessor: Dungeon of the ENDLESS™ - Steam Charts

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SpikedWallMan wrote:

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ThePilot wrote:

Humankind was an attempt to reel in 4x players. It was heavily-hyped as a possible Civilization(the game series)-killer. But...yea. Denuvo. And it was far too basic. It also just kinda sucked. Horrible release, buggy as hell for far too long, Denuvo was attached to it for far too long.

Denuvo was removed from Humankind before release.

ThePilot wrote:

You'd think they'd learn. Or maybe SEGA is forcing them. Who knows...they won't(can't?) say.

I don't have any sort of insider information to back up this claim, but I speculate that interference from Sega is driving many of these decisions.  Sega is one of the power-users of Denuvo so Amplitude's games going from zero DRM straight to Denuvo feels like a Sega decision.  (Sega even put Denuvo in Sonic Origins - yes, they DRM'd 30-year-old retro games.)  Also, I can't help but draw stylistic and thematic comparisons between TED and Creative Assembly's cancelled Hyenas game, and it feels like Sega is pressuring their studios to develop live-service shooters that can compete with games like Apex Legends, Overwatch, Fortnite, etc. even if the studios haven't made those types of games in the past.  Even the live-service events and streamer drops that were put into Humankind felt like a very bad fit for Amplitude's audience which makes me think that they were a "How do you do, fellow kids?" idea that was handed down from Sega just to check some boxes that someone in Marketing came up with.

Hmmm got my information wrong on Humankind...I could've sworn there was a massive cry about Denuvo.
EDIT: Yea, it was in the early access, right? And there was an outcry to remove it, which they did before the release. My point is still valid.

And I remember release, it was buggy as hell. 

So, you're essentially confirming that they have sold out. I know it's never "that easy", but the fact remains, they are unable to hold to their own tenants as long as SEGA is footing the bill...Sad

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ThePilot wrote:

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SpikedWallMan wrote:

Denuvo was removed from Humankind before release.

Hmmm got my information wrong on Humankind...I could've sworn there was a massive cry about Denuvo.
EDIT: Yea, it was in the early access, right? And there was an outcry to remove it, which they did before the release. My point is still valid.

A few of the OpenDev playtests had it, but I was mostly addressing your point that it was in the game "far far too long" because it wasn't in the final release and was only in a few playtests.

ThePilot wrote:

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SpikedWallMan wrote:

​​I don't have any sort of insider information to back up this claim, but I speculate that interference from Sega is driving many of these decisions.  Sega is one of the power-users of Denuvo so Amplitude's games going from zero DRM straight to Denuvo feels like a Sega decision.  (Sega even put Denuvo in Sonic Origins - yes, they DRM'd 30-year-old retro games.)  Also, I can't help but draw stylistic and thematic comparisons between TED and Creative Assembly's cancelled Hyenas game, and it feels like Sega is pressuring their studios to develop live-service shooters that can compete with games like Apex Legends, Overwatch, Fortnite, etc. even if the studios haven't made those types of games in the past.  Even the live-service events and streamer drops that were put into Humankind felt like a very bad fit for Amplitude's audience which makes me think that they were a "How do you do, fellow kids?" idea that was handed down from Sega just to check some boxes that someone in Marketing came up with.

So, you're essentially confirming that they have sold out. I know it's never "that easy", but the fact remains, they are unable to hold to their own tenants as long as SEGA is footing the bill...Sad

Emphasis mine.  I'm not "confirming" anything or am saying that Amplitude "sold out" in terms of their ideology.  I'm just saying that when a company gets purchased by a large corporation then there can be pressures that come from the top to do things that conflict with the company's actual vision/goals.  By looking at what's going on with specifically Amplitude and Creative Assembly, I am guessing that Sega is one of those corporations that likes to interfere instead of backing off and letting their subsidiaries do what they do best.  Again, it's just a guess based on observation, and I'm not accusing any company (Amplitude, Sega, or otherwise) of "selling out" their fans.  Companies do what they feel like they have to do - even if it's something I strongly disagree with or something that leads to lackluster results.

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MachineSpirit wrote:

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Daarkarrow wrote:

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MachineSpirit wrote:

Has this game been abandoned?

We are working on the next update that should release really 🔜™ 

@Daarkarrow I have updated the game on Epic but I still get an authentication error when I try to link my Epic account in the settings. This means I still dont have access to the "Last Wish Edition" skins I paid for at release. I don't want to submit yet another bug report about it here because obviously that isn't working, what else can I do other than complain to SEGA about this?

boycott?