VieuxChat wrote:
Those changes "must", in my opinion, remain for entire kind of units. Everyone must know that any inf unit will get more HP, etc. The fine tuning can be done by changing the default values of the unit.



The idea behind -75% upkeep is that the infantry should be the main part of any army.

Maybe I could reduce it to -50% but add a +15/20/25% upkeep for other kind of units. I think cavalry shoud have a very high cost (but it can't be done as I want it to be done) as they are lethal with my mod (I think of raising even higher their damage boost).

I like the idea of adding upkeep to non-infantry units. I agree that upkeep is already pretty low.



and thanks again for all your modding work. Your AI mod is excellent. I went one game without it (right when 1.08 was released) and it made me realize just how essential it's become for a competitive game.

VieuxChat wrote:
Your economic ideas are good. But I was thinking more of somethig really diffrent, something more like the fact the wonder victory is tied to quests.

What is Dust ? A money and fuel for Magic. What would arrive to Auriga if too much Dust was generated ? Maybe Auriga would try to defend herself.

So why not something like that : a tech of era 3 would let you build a new kind of stockpile, "Flows of Dust". It would create something like the pillars of the Ardent Mages and if you succeed to let it live for 10 turns you get one economic point. But the problem is that Flow of Dust will attract powerfull enemies.

The first time you use your flow of Dust you get era3 enemies. If you survive, the Flow disappear but you get a permanent Dust bonus on empire (something like +5% or +10% ? Or somethign like "Every tile that gives Dust also gives Ind" simulating th efact Dust start being alive and sometimes "works" by itself).

You have to do that 3 more times, but each tile you get more powerful monsters (er4 then era5 then era6 as a final boss ? You just have to let the Final Flow of Dust survive, even if your cities are destroyed, if the Flow maintains then you merge with it and winning, becoming a part o fthe universe, become Dust yourself. Or something as epic as that).

I don't know... I think that as victory is defined as over other empires, you should have to struggle with other empires to achieve it, not merely struggle against the environment (your suggestion) or struggle against nothing (dust and science victories, today).



Also the definition of an economic victory is basically that you have so much economic strength that other empires basically have to capitulate to you. So I don't want to change that, but I do want to rework it to make it significant and harder to achieve. In addition to my suggestions on 50% dust ownership and minimum dust stockpile (already tall orders), if players could steal or pillage dust from other empires to make it even harder to achieve an economic victory if you're the defender, or even easier if you're the aggressor, it would increase inter-empire competition for the economic victory.



Personally, I think your suggestion is a better alternative to the Wonder victory. Perhaps you have to build the Wonder in several stages, and each stage takes a given number of turns (so it's not a simple construction), and each stage it is incredibly vulnerable to attack by other players.



For example, first stage (Foundation) takes 5 turns, second stage (Structure) takes 5 turns, third stage (Tower) takes 10 turns - depending on game length. And to make things even more interesting, perhaps FIDS production for that city is disabled during this time (this does make it more difficult for Cultists who only have one city though).



Perhaps if you announced the construction to the other players, and made the AI target players building these stockpiles or constructions (actually, the AI should target anyone that is close to victory), it would mean more competition.



Even if someone wants to achieve a peaceful victory, it should be backed with strength.

When I spoke about the quest system, I was more speaking about the fact that victory isn't tied to a bucket filled and you just have to wait. My idea is to give the player more things to "do" to achieve that victory condition.

VieuxChat wrote:
Strange. I tested it for my mod and the +30% in health (for instance) is correct, even when adding +X% health items.

The value is correct when the item is placed on the unit but items show the unmodified value before you place them. Sorry if this was unclear. Not a big deal, but a little confusing...

But I was thinking more of somethig really diffrent, something more like the fact the wonder victory is tied to quests.

The Quest system (completed, in progress, failed) is inaccessible from the Simulation data (had a long back and forth with Pikou on this). This why the quests unlock a building and constructing the building is what actually wins the game. It also solves the problem of warning the other players that you are about to win the game, since the alert is triggered when the construction starts.

Your economic ideas are good. But I was thinking more of somethig really diffrent, something more like the fact the wonder victory is tied to quests.

What is Dust ? A money and fuel for Magic. What would arrive to Auriga if too much Dust was generated ? Maybe Auriga would try to defend herself.

So why not something like that : a tech of era 3 would let you build a new kind of stockpile, "Flows of Dust". It would create something like the pillars of the Ardent Mages and if you succeed to let it live for 10 turns you get one economic point. But the problem is that Flow of Dust will attract powerfull enemies.

The first time you use your flow of Dust you get era3 enemies. If you survive, the Flow disappear but you get a permanent Dust bonus on empire (something like +5% or +10% ? Or somethign like "Every tile that gives Dust also gives Ind" simulating th efact Dust start being alive and sometimes "works" by itself).

You have to do that 3 more times, but each tile you get more powerful monsters (er4 then era5 then era6 as a final boss ? You just have to let the Final Flow of Dust survive, even if your cities are destroyed, if the Flow maintains then you merge with it and winning, becoming a part o fthe universe, become Dust yourself. Or something as epic as that).

Yeah, dust cost increase on levels could work too, but I still think two half-sized armies should be cheaper than one army because one large army is more combat-effective than two half-sized armies.



Perhaps to keep things simpler, you could do this:

Unit upkeep = [Level*(Level+1)]/2

{ 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55 [triangularnumbers,Ilike] }

Army upkeep = (Sum of Unit Upkeep) + [Numberofunitsinarmy*(Numberofunitsinarmy+1)]/2

Military upkeep = (Sum of army upkeep)



I edited my post regarding economic victory btw. Please take a look.

Search in the SimulationDescriptors[Class].xml.

I don't like "powers" because it's hard for the player to know how much a new unit will cost him.

Something like (level x level) should be enough. High level units would cost a lot more.

Or a less harsh (level x (level +1)) / 2.

I think the calculation has something to do with the "priority".



Economic victory is something that you kind of fall asleep and stumble into though. The same with science victory. I think they need to be reworked regardless.



The reason I bring up end-game dust income is that military upkeep is an insignificant cost (insignificant even compared to hero upkeep). Perhaps it just needs to be increased, but that would make early game military too expensive.



The other issue is this: "Economic victory is determined by the total amount of Dust generated and spending it has no impact." Surely it should be an empire's unused dust stock, not merely the amount of dust it has generated over the course of the game? Hell, if it were up to me, I'd want it so that the economic victory was a minimum raw value AND a percentage of everyone's dust stock, whichever is higher. e.g. For a normal game on a normal sized map and normal victory at minimum 250,000 unused dust stock AND minimum 50% of everyone's combined unused dust stocks. So if there were seven remaining empires (Cultists got eliminated at the start), and two of those had 250,000 each, and the other five empires had 100,000 each, neither of the two economic-focused empires could yet win, because neither have reached 500,000 dust. It would add an interesting dynamic too, because simply by forcing an economic-focused empire to spend their dust (on defensive units for example), you can keep them from achieving victory, without needing to commit your whole army to taking them out of the game.



Perhaps if the formula were:

Military Upkeep = Sum of Army Upkeep*Modifier2

Army Upkeep = (Sum of Unit Upkeep)*Modifier1

Unit Upkeep = Level*Modifiers

Modifier1 = 1.1^(number of units in army - 1) [example]

Modifier2 = 1.1^(number of armies in empire - 1) [example]



For example, three armies, one with 3 level 2 units, one with 4 level 1 units, and one with 1 level 1 unit, no other modifiers

Army 1:

Unit upkeep (level 2) = 2

Number of units in army = 3

Sum of unit upkeep = 3*2 = 6

Army upkeep = 6*1.1^(3-1) = 7.26

Army 2:

Unit upkeep (level 1) = 1

Number of units in army = 4

Sum of unit upkeep = 4*1 = 4

Army upkeep = 4*1.1^(4-1) = 5.324

Army 3:

Unit upkeep (level 1) = 1

Sum of unit upkeep = 1

Army upkeep = 1*1.1^(1-1) = 1

Empire:

Sum of army upkeep = 7.26+5.324+1 = 13.584

Number of armies = 3

Military upkeep = 13.584*1.1^(3-1) = 16.43664



Currently, such a military would cost you

(3*2+4*1+1*1)+(3*4) = 23

Fairly expensive early-game.



The point is to make having many armies and/or many units in an army increasingly more expensive, but keep things cheaper early game when you have fewer units in each army, lower level units and fewer armies.



For example, a sole 8-stack Level 10 army would cost you:

Unit Upkeep = 10

Sum of unit upkeep = 8*10 = 80

Army upkeep = 80*1.1^(8-1) = 155.897368



Atm, such an army only costs you 80+4 = 84. Very cheap late-game.



But two 4-stack level 10 armies would cost you:

Unit Upkeep = 10

Sum of unit upkeep = 4*10 = 40

Army upkeep = 40*1.1^(4-1) = 53.24

Sum of army upkeep = 2*53.24 = 106.48

Military upkeep = 106.48*1.1^(2-1) = 117.128



Atm, such a military costs you (2*40+2*4) = 88. Still cheap late game, however, for some reason more expensive than the 8-stack (which is almost always more powerful in a combat situation). My suggestions change that up.



Obviously, I don't know whether you can do these modifiers with simple XML though... Can you point me to the relevant files so I can have a look please?

I hesitate between second and third.



The end game income is also meant to let you win the economic victory, so nerfing it will prevent economic strategies to win. I would prefer more things to spend Dust on, that way you still have a high income (so you can attend the economic victory) but more cost for everything would make that high number meaningful.

Maybe more threats whil ein winter ? Like winter enemies spawning that would force you to build a lot more units to stay alive ? But I'd have to teach the AI how to survive such a threat...

How does it do the calculation?

For example, we have item A that gives +A% and +A, and we have item B that gives +B, and we have item C that gives +C%, and the unit's base attack is BASE



Is it... (percentage on base, absolutes added to the end)

Attack = BASE*(1+A%+C%)+A+B



or (percentage on base and absolutes combined)

Attack = (BASE+A+B)*(1+A%+C%)



or (each item added separately)

Attack = {[(BASE+A)*(1+A%)+B]*(1+C%)}



I would suggest that end-game dust income (era 5/6) needs to be addressed though. Absurdly high for all factions.

Propbuddha wrote:
I've run into another issue myself. When you do thing like "+50% attack to all Units/ClassOfUnit", you get some strange results from equipment. When you a weapon that adds +10 Attack, it really only adds +7 Attack when equipped. I don't like editing every unit individually though either. Folks just need to keep close attention.

Strange. I tested it for my mod and the +30% in health (for instance) is correct, even when adding +X% health items.

I agree with your goal, but I'm not sure this will achieve what you want. Consider that MilitaryUpkeep is an insignificant cost for most factions. You are giving a big boost to Cultists (free units) and Necrophages (free units), a decent one to the Drakken (offset upkeep from Fast Learner on Drakkenling) and Broken Lords (Stalwarts are good enough to use through out the game), a small one to Ardent Mages (starter unit is Infantry) and an insignificant one to the others (starter is not Infantry).



I think you're on the right track with the extra Life though. You may also consider giving them an ability similar to "Intimidate" that will mess up adjacent enemies.

So, I may just raise the upkeep for everyone.

And the "Some factions don't satrt with inf" isn't a valid one : with my changes everyone should have an infantry unit be it through assimilation. It adds more choices when chosing what kind of minor faction to assimilate.

VieuxChat wrote:
Those changes "must", in my opinion, remain for entire kind of units. Everyone must know that any inf unit will get more HP, etc. The fine tuning can be done by changing the default values of the unit.

I've run into another issue myself. When you do thing like "+50% attack to all Units/ClassOfUnit", you get some strange results from equipment. When you a weapon that adds +10 Attack, it really only adds +7 Attack when equipped. I don't like editing every unit individually though either. Folks just need to keep close attention.

VieuxChat wrote:
The idea behind -75% upkeep is that the infantry should be the main part of any army.

I agree with your goal, but I'm not sure this will achieve what you want. Consider that MilitaryUpkeep is an insignificant cost for most factions. You are giving a big boost to Cultists (free units) and Necrophages (free units), a decent one to the Drakken (offset upkeep from Fast Learner on Drakkenling) and Broken Lords (Stalwarts are good enough to use through out the game), a small one to Ardent Mages (starter unit is Infantry) and an insignificant one to the others (starter is not Infantry).



I think you're on the right track with the extra Life though. You may also consider giving them an ability similar to "Intimidate" that will mess up adjacent enemies.

I'll try to get better results with we have (and the game is already moddable a lot). I also gave more personnalities to AIs.

To better enhance each class role, I modded the following :

• Infantry get 20% more HP and their upkeep are halved.
• Cavalry get 30% more damage, -20% in defence and have 6 movement points in battle and 8 movement points on the map. (I wanted to give them a "cost" penalty, but it seems the cost calculation aren't in the same file.. I'll try something like that after)
• Ranged are as before.
• Flying have 4 movement points in battle and 30% more defence.
• Support units have two action point (but I need testing to see if the game will recognize it and use it twice. At least it should let support unit defend AND attack), and -25% in damage.
  
  

The file : SimulationDescriptors[UnitClass].zip Put it in your Endless Legend\Public\Simulation folder



EDIT : I tweaked the values even more and found something interesting. The initiative value is less OP with those changes, that's why I did the following changes :

even less upkeep for infantry (-75%), they should be canon fodder. Once I'll find how to reduce their cost I'll add that.

+30% health instead of +20% for infantry.

Cavalry : -30% in defence, 15% more initiative. After all they have more mobility ! What I'd like to do is give them a -50% initiative every two turns (it would simulate the exhaustion after a charge). So it would be init 100% at turn 1, at 50% on turn 2, 100% at turn 3, 50% at turn 4, etc.

Flying : 40% in defence. they should be the hardest units to hit. I'm wondering if I should give them a low init bonus and an HP malus.

Support: I didn't changed the right stat to give them 2 attacks. Now they have. And they have -30% in damage. I'm wondering if I should give them less HP to make them fragile and a better range (4 instead of 3)

Those changes "must", in my opinion, remain for entire kind of units. Everyone must know that any inf unit will get more HP, etc. The fine tuning can be done by changing the default values of the unit.



The idea behind -75% upkeep is that the infantry should be the main part of any army.

Maybe I could reduce it to -50% but add a +15/20/25% upkeep for other kind of units. I think cavalry shoud have a very high cost (but it can't be done as I want it to be done) as they are lethal with my mod (I think of raising even higher their damage boost).

These are interesting balance changes, thanks for sharing!



A couple of comments...

• I like the concepts behind the changes but not sure if these changes are appropriate for entire categories of units, would like to eventually see finer tuning of individual units.
  
  
  
  
• -75% upkeep for infantry seems like something that can be abused, especially for Necrophage and Cultists players that get free units. Upkeep is already pretty low, so this just seems like a discount that doesn't really serve much purpose.
  
  

I really like your new idea for cavalry initiative (-50% initiative every two turns ); simulates a cavalry charge nicely and interesting for variation of unit type.

But rangers can't OS the cavalry, who should be able to OS if they get a critical thanks to the damage bonus. If they don't kill, the low defence should help the rangers to finish it easily.

EDIT: But I'm thinking of adding a -20% att on ranged so that they miss more often.

Cavalry attacks won't prevent Rangers from firing because they don't counter-attack when attacked. Besides, their initiative is high enough to act before cavalry do.

They still are dangerous, but if you use infantry to soaken up the damage and use cavalry to get to them before they fire, then you can survive enough to kill them...

Flying units, with a 40% in defence are harder to hit, so they also are a valuable way to survive first volleys.

Maybe I'll add a -10% HP on ranged if it's not enough.

The idea is not to nerf them to the ground, but to give meaningful counter to them.