Why are you waiting that long? You should be roughly level 3 by the time you arrive if you head that direction immediately, and they would still be level one back in July. It should take you only as many turns as it takes to walk over there and conduct a siege, with just enough MF kills on the way to get a couple of levels. Make another unit as quickly as possible and have them rush to catch up. They should be able to reinforce the initial engagement, and, even though they'll be level 1, they'll still be modified by the level 3 hero.



If this is no longer possible, that's a wonderful thing to hear. It made Drakken way too powerful to be able to snipe their neighbor for a "free" city even on Endless. I'm just curious, as this was quite possible last I played.

Katrisa wrote:
Which is a point where I have some AI feedback, as it was trivial for me to simply "force" peace by offering them massive amounts of gold and resources I didn't need.

The AI should bargain a little better than it did previously - I'd be curious to know exactly what/how much you offered in order to buy peace from them, as this is specifically something we worked on for the update.

I also had a really good Serious game on a small map with four characters (including the Necros, Wild walkers and Vaulters). I was using a custom Forgotten race with -50% settler cost reduction and -50% expansion disapproval traits, and food/gold bonuses. I did a massive early expansion focusing on vertical first then expanding out, to discourage their settlers from crossing my territory.



As you noted its apparent their bonuses give them quite an early edge. Ultimately my massive expansion, and more important my incredible population growth overwhelmed their tactics resulting in my becoming an economic giant and greatly discouraging them from Waring with me. It wasn't until late game that the Necros starting Waring with me. Which is a point where I have some AI feedback, as it was trivial for me to simply "force" peace by offering them massive amounts of gold and resources I didn't need.

JIntegrity wrote:
Shortly after, I tried to figure out how to make wide BL work, but this was post Guardians expansion, and it felt so underwhelming in every game I attempted it that I gave it up altogether.

Assuming you're doing custom, I had some interesting luck using the -50% settler cost reduction and -50% expansion disapproval traits. Very affordable. What I ended up doing was playing a single megacity capital, then salting the earth every ten turns with every other city for boosters and empire plan. Rather than building anything meaningful in my outposts, I just built units. Being able to jump to 2 pop instantly for 30-some dust meant that it was easy enough to use those outposts to expand crazy wide, and even though the outposts were very vulnerable, there was more for my enemies to lose by taking them than there was for me to lose by losing them. Very much like playing Cult, but with territory.

natev wrote:
Starting army is enough. Did a vanilla drakken vs. cult on hard difficulty. Wasn't easy, but was doable. Took more than 5 rounds of combat, enough for another unit to join my army, and took a casualty. Units were level 1 on reaching Cult, general was level 3, but that was pretty touch-and-go, took significant risks to reach that level that fast, and lucked out with a lot of beatable villages. On finishing Cult, moved on to Vaulter, which was tough but doable.



If I had Drakken v. bigballs, and no other significant opposition, I might just consider it to keep him on his toes

lmao...you would!!!!!!!

Serious is the difficulty I play at all times. Difficult enough to be challenging in a fun way, unlike Impossible and Endless which to me become annoying challenging and a hassle. On Serious, one can still afford to take a breather every once in a while, focus on empire building and quests, and not to play too aggressively.



In fact I won a Drakken game diplomatically without declaring war once, on serious. Sure I had to manipulate factions into fighting each other, and force everyone to be in perpetual peace with me, but hey I'm a big mind controlling dragon.



Once you're used to serious, op, you'll find it the most fun (unless huge boosts to the AI is your thing).

BigBalls wrote:
A - Militia buff was significant...not sure starting army is enough now.

B - Why would you use this strat in any scenario just to win? Surely it doesn't really feel like a win?

I read about the strat', found the concept interesting, and was testing the limits of it. I beat my closest neighbor on Endless (in July), but thought I could just walk across the map sniping capitals as I had on the lower difficulties, and found myself against a custom Roving Clans of my making. The sheer number of Dervishes, and their combined stuns, made short work of me.



Shortly after, I tried to figure out how to make wide BL work, but this was post Guardians expansion, and it felt so underwhelming in every game I attempted it that I gave it up altogether.



I was busy tonight, but I should have some time after work tomorrow. I intend to try out the Forgotten, as I've never played them before, and see what fun awaits me there. I'll probably play them as a custom faction though, as I prefer playing that way. I always give the AI custom factions to compensate, and only factions I'd run myself.

Starting army is enough. Did a vanilla drakken vs. cult on hard difficulty. Wasn't easy, but was doable. Took more than 5 rounds of combat, enough for another unit to join my army, and took a casualty. Units were level 1 on reaching Cult, general was level 3, but that was pretty touch-and-go, took significant risks to reach that level that fast, and lucked out with a lot of beatable villages. On finishing Cult, moved on to Vaulter, which was tough but doable.



If I had Drakken v. bigballs, and no other significant opposition, I might just consider it to keep him on his toes

JIntegrity wrote:
My "waiting that long" is in reference to the post prior to yours, natev. I believe it was a custom Drakken faction with Fast Travelers 2, combat traits, and I believe I put movement accessories on them to maximize the amount of MF I could hit on the way, so that might affect things, and I'm not sure what has changed since July. I'll try seeing if I can replicate the experience on Endless. I hope I fail, but it shall be fun.

A - Militia buff was significant...not sure starting army is enough now.

B - Why would you use this strat in any scenario just to win? Surely it doesn't really feel like a win?

My "waiting that long" is in reference to the post prior to yours, natev. I believe it was a custom Drakken faction with Fast Travelers 2, combat traits, and I believe I put movement accessories on them to maximize the amount of MF I could hit on the way, so that might affect things, and I'm not sure what has changed since July. I'll try seeing if I can replicate the experience on Endless. I hope I fail, but it shall be fun.

Why are you waiting until turn 5? Because that's how long it takes to reach the closest empire at a walking rate of 5 tiles per turn, and that's how long it takes to generate enough influence, even with an adjacent ruin, to declare war. At best. And there's no way that you raise 2 drakkenlings and a hero to level 3 by turn 5, even if you're lucky enough to find a village along every leg of your journey. Consider this a challenge to show me a save game with a level 3 starting army on turn 5



Like I said, this is still possible on easier difficulties, but in my experience, it has never been possible on the hardest difficulties. On Endless difficulty, it's typical for your closest enemy to have already built an additional unit or two, and once under siege, they're still capable of building a unit a turn. Never mind their combat bonuses.

Started playing on Serious and the AI is just completely kicking me around the court. Inevitably by turn 70 or so (playing on Fast) it is clear that I will not be winning the game (possibly by a cheap victory condition like Diplomatic but other than that...)



In every game, some AI has researched age 5 before I'm even finished with age 3.



In every game, in fact, some AI researches age 2 at or around turn 10, which has seemed utterly impossible for me playing as anyone other than ardent mages and sacrificing everything for science pillars.



I feel like I'm getting a lot more of the harder pacification quests, too, though maybe that is just a coincidence/confirmation bias?



By the time I've squeaked out three, maybe four settlements, some AI has already settled seemingly almost half the map. (I've been trying huge pangaea, the version with the smaller ocean).



I've read the basic guides to the factions etc. But are there any special tips I should know specifically for Serious difficulty and above?

I think I misunderstood you, JIntegrity. I thought you meant starting a war on turn 5. When you do that, your units aren't even level 2 yet. Rushing this fast has never been doable on Endless difficulty, against any faction, but has always been effective on Hard or easier difficulty.

JIntegrity wrote:
I don't really buy it not working on the Necrophages. I've done it to them on Endless difficulty (granted I beelined for them first), and their units are so fragile at that stage of the game it was actually easier than normal. Granted, you don't try to do it to a second faction on higher difficulties (on lower ones, you just walk your death stack across the map and win), and distances do come in to account, but as long as a faction doesn't have MF units assisting (which would be difficult to accomplish that early, and impossible for our dear Necros) I don't see them being a problem, unless things have changed in the months since I last had the means to play (since July).

This does not work at all against anyone on endless anymore. AI spits out lvl 8 units at turn 30....it takes 50 turns to get your two starting units to lvl 8. Endless is quite hard now.

I don't really buy it not working on the Necrophages. I've done it to them on Endless difficulty (granted I beelined for them first), and their units are so fragile at that stage of the game it was actually easier than normal. Granted, you don't try to do it to a second faction on higher difficulties (on lower ones, you just walk your death stack across the map and win), and distances do come in to account, but as long as a faction doesn't have MF units assisting (which would be difficult to accomplish that early, and impossible for our dear Necros) I don't see them being a problem, unless things have changed in the months since I last had the means to play (since July).

It is still possible, provided you're playing at a reasonable difficulty level. I think Serious is about where it gets to the point that it's not worth doing against Cult and pretty iffy against Necrophage.

Is it still possible, as Drakken, to keep your starting stack, kill every MF between you and an enemy as you start a march on their capital from turn one, and then just snipe AI with your over-leveled armies? Because, that totally worked the last time I played. (Looking forward to being able to play again tomorrow. Yay, new laptop!)

Speusippus wrote:
What are MF units?

Minor Faction Units. Roaming armies and their villages. At the beginning stay away from high health/def infantry units...ie silics and rumblers. If you have to fight them don't auto as the AI over values stun it seems.



You will see quite quickly how fast your hero will level against haunts, kazjani, teteke.



At lvl 8 a drakken general is adding nearly 150 health, 7 init, 5 defense to each unit and has extra reinforcement spot. Also if you keep the units you are leveling with alive and retrofit them they too will be monsters when it's time to bring the pain.

What are MF units?

Follow this with basically every faction.....but until you get it down I would start playing Wild Walkers as they build so fast.



- Split starting army and get as many parlays/ruins as possible till your hero hit's lvl 3. Then put him in city as gov.

- Build Memorial, Mill Foundry, Settler, Settler. Get to 3 settlements asap and then sit and build out your Economy. When you build all the basic tier 1 buildings (industry/food/science/dust) start building basic units to fill your garrison. (This will inflate your score and prevent the AI from attacking you in most scenarios.

- Hire +Health drakken general and give him two units as well equipped as possible. Kill MF units until you hit lvl 7 or 8. (Should be around turn 45 to 50)

- Buy enough quicksilver to build out atleast 1 well equipped 6 stack army. (Should be around turn 45 to 50). Build some extra "replacement" units

- Go start killing the AI - Manual battles so you don't lose units using your now beefy drakken general to heal units (should be around 90 damage).

- Once these units start leveling you can pretty much just start auto-ing fights.





Additionally - make sure one of your cities has a cultist gov going full on in influence so you can make the health era plan....after that you win.