Xenophon wrote:
I can't believe how much the AI is willing to bend and trade everything if you give them strategic or luxury resources. For instance, I just got 4 techs with only like 13 palladium or something. Is this considered an exploit and frowned upon by most players?



I am at Hard level at the moment - so no clue if the AI does this at higher levels, too. I also wonder if the AI gave up so much, because I am ahead in era, and he wasn't going to have access to T3 strategic resources for a while.

I only play Endless Legend in singleplayer mode, so it is not lame. In fact, it is necessary because the AI players cheat on higher difficulties. In fact, this is how it works in most 4X games because to create a truly good AI requires a lot more work than simply buffing their stats across the board (stats like income, food production, tech, HP, mana, or whatever stats the specific 4X game uses).



Oh dear, this appears to be my first post.

@Xenophon



And what didn't you understand ?

"Wilbefast" wrote:
...so if you run into a situation that looks unusual please do send us in a save game so we can take a look at it!

wilbefast wrote:
Yep



As Frogsquadron pointed out we made some pretty sweeping changes to diplomacy in Forges of Creation - we're confident these have made things better, but it's one of those things that'll need to be tweaked for a bit now that the new system is in place. We had complaints that the AI was too hesitant to trade technologies so we raised the value of tradeable commodities (ie. anything that can be converted directly to dust). If there seems to be a consensus saying that tradeable commodities are now worth too much with regard to technologies we'll rein things back a little.



The goal for trading with the AI to never be exploitable (or otherwise lame), so if you run into a situation that looks unusual please do send us in a save game so we can take a look at it!

38 Adamantium for 5 era 4 and 5 techs at Hard difficulty when a truce is not involved. If that is not exploiting, then I am the Queen of England.



In all seriousness, while I understand that the AI may have valued tech too high in the past, I think you've over-compensated it dramatically and creating an arguably worse imbalance.

natev wrote:
SP, do whatever you want.



MP, kind of lame, but totally unpoliceable. Best option, really, is to make AI at low enough difficulty that they won't have any techs worth trading for.



If any particular trades seem ridiculous to you, it's worth documenting them, maybe on the stickied AI thread. I think Amplitude is very interested in improving these.

Yep



As Frogsquadron pointed out we made some pretty sweeping changes to diplomacy in Forges of Creation - we're confident these have made things better, but it's one of those things that'll need to be tweaked for a bit now that the new system is in place. We had complaints that the AI was too hesitant to trade technologies so we raised the value of tradeable commodities (ie. anything that can be converted directly to dust). If there seems to be a consensus saying that tradeable commodities are now worth too much with regard to technologies we'll rein things back a little.



The goal for trading with the AI to never be exploitable (or otherwise lame), so if you run into a situation that looks unusual please do send us in a save game so we can take a look at it!

I double-checked, the value is a mix of the AI's own resources (the ones they control/their stocks at that moment) and market prices. Other more complicated formulas had been dropped because the huge number of use cases caused lots of weird behavior.

Frogsquadron wrote:
I think your first post contained both question and answer: having no access to the strategic resource itself probably skewed the AI's appreciation of it in your favor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they also look into whether or not they can easily attain said Luxury Resource in unclaimed land around their current area. If they can, they are less likely to hand over techs cheaply for what they can attain themselves for relatively cheap.

Xenophon wrote:
38 Adamantium for 5 era 4 and 5 techs at Hard difficulty when a truce is not involved.

This seems strange, yes. If you send the save I'll have a look at the AI's brain and see what's going on.

There are some strong personality based differences, and there's always the issue of truce. I have had no problem taking even an Endless AI for all of its techs, once I've taken it to the brink of extinction (or past, for that matter).

Frogsquadron wrote:
I think your first post contained both question and answer: having no access to the strategic resource itself probably skewed the AI's appreciation of it in your favor.

At least at hard difficulty, I do think the AI surrenders techs a bit too easily. But it could also be that I under-estimate the value of strategic or luxury resources as well, and as a result too freely sell or trade them.

I think your first post contained both question and answer: having no access to the strategic resource itself probably skewed the AI's appreciation of it in your favor.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I play on serious and they definitely do not value tech so lightly.

Hmmm, I guess I will find out soon enough then!

Of course, the value of the techs will vary depending on which techs they were, and the value of Palladium varies according to the current market price (which is itself kind of exploitable, but there you go).



I've also found that certain AIs seem to be much more amenable to trades than others. In my last game, I was allied with 2 Roving Clans players that both gave me reasonably good deals, and also allied with a Wild Walker player and a Vaulter player who consistently demanded 2-3 times as much compensation for exactly the same resources/techs in trades. (I'm speculating that the Roving Clans' AI parameters are biased towards being more willing to make trades, but it's a small sample size.)

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I play on serious and they definitely do not value tech so lightly.

They don't on normal either in my current game so there is likely a bug of some sort at work.

I play on serious and they definitely do not value tech so lightly.

SP, do whatever you want.



MP, kind of lame, but totally unpoliceable. Best option, really, is to make AI at low enough difficulty that they won't have any techs worth trading for.



If any particular trades seem ridiculous to you, it's worth documenting them, maybe on the stickied AI thread. I think Amplitude is very interested in improving these.

Taeves wrote:




OR simply remove the Drakken from the game.

No.



But this is very strange, the AI never behaves that way with me, on Serious. It rarely accepts any tech trading, barring outdated tech.

Ok willbefast, but options can always be usefull. In Civ you can desactivate tech trading, because it can be better to play without it, on multiplayer especially.



Moreoever, I don't think you ll can solve this in every situation. For exemple if a human attack another human, and conquer most of his city, then the conquered player quit the game, that is very logical that the A.I is ready to give some tech to obtain truce. Every nation would do that to save itself from destruction.



If you want to play a pure FFA, without secret alliance with tech exchange or AI extortion, it would be good to have this option.

Jojo_Fr wrote:
Suggestions to solve the problem :



It would be great to have a game option to forbit trading with AI, or ton only autorised no trade trading, or ton autorise trading only with humans, or to ban any trading with humans or AI.

We'd rather fix the feature than allow players to disable it - hence the work on changing Winter gameplay in the upcoming expansion. If the AI's evaluation are not up to scratch then the solution is to improve those evaluation - for that we need test-cases though, or steps to reproduce the issue!

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I've started a game on serious and to my surprise, the Drakken was too enthusiastic about the map exchange. I was able to get 2 era 2 techs from him for a map exchange. That never happened to me before.



They definitely should not be that willing to get a map exchange (esp not the Drakken who already practically know the map). In any thing else however, they are behaving normally.



EDIT: ok something is definitely wrong. I could have gotten 5 techs from the Roving Clans in exchange for peace, and we are not even neighbours.

Upload some savegame files so that the devs can see what the AI is "thinking". Just talking about it doesn.t help that much ^^

I've started a game on serious and to my surprise, the Drakken was too enthusiastic about the map exchange. I was able to get 2 era 2 techs from him for a map exchange. That never happened to me before.



They definitely should not be that willing to get a map exchange (esp not the Drakken who already practically know the map). In any thing else however, they are behaving normally.



EDIT: ok something is definitely wrong. I could have gotten 5 techs from the Roving Clans in exchange for peace, and we are not even neighbours.