Where is Slowhands when we need him?

Gwydden wrote:
Very interesting. See what I said about there not being a convenient database? I'll have to chase down the rest of them when I get the chance.

The Facts & Concept Art devblogs are an awesome resource. But it is my impression that they sometimes make reference to ideas that didn't materialise or that had changed substantially. For instance, one person said that the Broken Lords are Concrete survivors, which is seemingly contradicted by the faction intro. So it might have been the original idea behind them before it was changed. Unless they are concretes...

That's exactly what I think it's curious. Previously, the general assumption seemed to be that, canonically, the Vaulters made off Auriga in the Grey Owl and that's why they show up in ES. The teasers for ES2 seem to suggest that is not the case, yet in the artwork we've seen there are some humans that seem to be Vaulters/Mezari (based on their color scheme I'd say the latter). All of this leads me to suspect the Mezari who did not get stuck on Auriga are the most likely to feature in the events of ES2 as opposed to the Vaulters.

I'm inclined to think so as well, but since the "Vaulters" are a staple to the franchise, the devs might think that "vaulters" as a name should always be there. We'll see. But I think it makes more sense for us to play the Mezari proper.

On a different subject, I doubt the Necrophages end up being the Cravers, at least not in the way you proposed. It is a cool idea, but I'm not sure the timeline works. The Cravers supposedly fought in the Dust Wars, which was long before He Who Meddles came about. I find it more likely that the Necrophages were the rejects from Endless experiments. Unless, of course, the lore about Cravers fighting for the Virtuals actually refers to the Necrophages.

That's what I'm thinking. That the necrophages were created by the Virtuals as weapons, and they then evolved to become the Cravers. The reason why I suggest this is because the Necrophage intro as well as the faction quest all mention going to the stars. Their faction quest was all about He Who Meddles making sure that the Necrophages survive the upcoming cataclysm, and that someone after him would take the 'phages to where they have never been. It would be a bit anti-climactic if all this foreshadowing led to nowhere or was just a wink to another faction.



That said, He Who Meddles is my favourite character, so I am biased in the sense I want to see his legacy and have him be alluded to in ES2.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I got the history of the Roving Clans from here:

http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/content.php?543-EL-Endless-Archives-Roving-Clans-Facts-Concepts

Very interesting. See what I said about there not being a convenient database? I'll have to chase down the rest of them when I get the chance.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
About the connection between ES and EL, the devs said explicitly that ES2 is a reboot of sorts. ES established the setting, but that was it. So ES2 will take place after EL.



I think the Mezari probably came about before or around the establishment of the United Empire, unlike the Pilgrims which left the Empire much later.

That's exactly what I think it's curious. Previously, the general assumption seemed to be that, canonically, the Vaulters made off Auriga in the Grey Owl and that's why they show up in ES. The teasers for ES2 seem to suggest that is not the case, yet in the artwork we've seen there are some humans that seem to be Vaulters/Mezari (based on their color scheme I'd say the latter). All of this leads me to suspect the Mezari who did not get stuck on Auriga are the most likely to feature in the events of ES2 as opposed to the Vaulters.



I could be entirely wrong about this, but I'm looking forward to the factions being revealed so I can be proven wrong xD



On a different subject, I doubt the Necrophages end up being the Cravers, at least not in the way you proposed. It is a cool idea, but I'm not sure the timeline works. The Cravers supposedly fought in the Dust Wars, which was long before He Who Meddles came about. I find it more likely that the Necrophages were the rejects from Endless experiments. Unless, of course, the lore about Cravers fighting for the Virtuals actually refers to the Necrophages.

Gwydden wrote:
Nice timeline! And fear not, I find the game's lore fascinating as well. I wish there was more about it in the wiki so we didn't have to hunt down the details all around.



I had no idea the Roving Clans were an off-shoot of the Lords of the Amber Plains. Is this confirmed somewhere or speculation on your part?



Also, kudos for suggesting that the Wild Walkers are human in origin. I have had that idea for a while and I really hope it turns out to be true. The Endless universe doesn't seem like the kind of science fiction setting with rubber head aliens so far, and I'd like it to stay that way.



I wonder what are your ideas regarding EL connections with the ES games. For example, were the Mezari part of the United Empire or a separate faction from the beginning? The former seems the most likely, but their aesthetic doesn't seem to support that idea.

I got the history of the Roving Clans from here:

http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/content.php?543-EL-Endless-Archives-Roving-Clans-Facts-Concepts



About the connection between ES and EL, the devs said explicitly that ES2 is a reboot of sorts. ES established the setting, but that was it. So ES2 will take place after EL.



I think the Mezari probably came about before or around the establishment of the United Empire, unlike the Pilgrims which left the Empire much later.

I need to set some time aside to really digest this. So awesome, Knight! <3

So having finally played Dungeon of the Endless (and beaten it 5 times in a row because of how addictive it is), I've acquired a stronger idea of the timeline involved in Endless Legend and in Auriga, which is in large part determined by its cataclysms. So here is my attempt at presenting a timeline, in addition with speculation on my part based on the various information that is scattered both in-game and out.



I thought to post it in the Endless Plains section, but this meagre work is neither artistic nor creative so I thought it should be fine here. If it's deemed inappropriate, please put it wherever you feel it should be.



-------------------------------



I. The Endless colonize Auriga



Little is known as to when this happened, though I assume it was much later than the tragedy of Kyros and the birth of Dust. It appears that the Endless led a purge on Auriga, using their Scyther mechs to fight off Auriga's Guardians. It is interesting to note how similar the Scyther looks to the Allayi, indicating a possible source of inspiration and the fact that the Allayi might be native as well.



In addition, it seems that the Endless uplifted the Drakken, other natives of Auriga, through genetic and biological modification. It is unclear whether they did this during to or after the purge was complete. From the looks of things, it seems that the Drakken are programmed to follow Endless directives. I personally speculate that the Drakken were uplifted to fulfil the role of stewards of Auriga, managing and controlling the natives as well as experiments that the Endless were playing around with.



With that in mind, I have come to believe (and this is purely speculation on my part), that the Drakken were redesigned with the ability to influence minds. This would explain their ability to enforce international agreements, and it is hinted at by how faction leaders react to being forced into a treaty (one in particular states that they will comply with your wishes even though they don't know why). This is further hinted at, in my eyes, with the Drakken heroes being able to make minor factions passive (hero skill tree). It is not mind control perse, but the Drakken were given the ability to significantly influence the denizens of Auriga.



During their stay on Auriga, the Endless experimented with numerous creatures and created several such as the Erycis. Other native life forms, such as the Silics, were experimented on and studied. It also seems like the Endless sowed the seeds of the "human" races represented by the Broken Lords, Roving Clans, Sisters of Mercy, and Ardent Mages, and possibly the Wild Walkers (I'll get to that). It is unclear if the Endless created them, or brought them to Auriga from elsewhere, or were always there, or if they are in fact primitive Endless themselves.



II. The Dust Wars



The war between the Virtuals and the Concretes erupted, leading the Virtuals to unleashing the necrophages on Auriga. It seems also that they created the Cravers, though how they relate to the necrophages is unknown and might be revealed in ES2 (I personally like the idea that the necrophages, thanks to He Who Meddles, become the Cravers). However, He Who Meddles in the Necrophage Intro speaks of the necrophages as natives. It is thus possible that the necrophages were primitive insect lifeforms that were modified by the Virtuals to fight the Concretes.



The war led to the bombing of Auriga and the destabilization of its ecosystem, leading to a cataclysm. I will refer to it as the First Cataclysm. Though devastating, numerous species managed to survive. The Cult of the Eternal End was created at that time, with them being programmed to wipe all traces of the Endless on the planet, by a group of ashamed Endless. For some reason however, the Queen awoke erratic and unstable, taking her directives and following it with an enraged zeal that went beyond programming.



III. Post-First Cataclysm



After the volatility on Auriga stabilised and life could thrive once more, new civilizations emerged and prospered.



It would appear that the Roving Clans came into existence after breaking off from the main body of what will eventually be known as the Broken Lords, who we will assume were located on the Amber Plains. It is unclear whether the Ardent Mages are also an offshoot of the Broken Lords, or are rather an eventual off shoot from the Roving Clans. The similarity in names (both having significant Middle Eastern influence), as well as the fact that the Ardent Mages also have clans, seems to suggest the latter scenario.



So these 3 civilizations, in addition to other "human" societies flourished. We can assume that most lifeforms on Auriga flourished in this era of environmental stability.



IV. Second Cataclysm



Due to either the effects of the Dust Wars, or something inherent within Auriga that preceded the Endless, the planet once more fell into a downward spiral of environmental instability and volatility. It is unclear how much time had passed since the Dust Wars and the First Cataclysm.



It is also unclear whether the Broken Lords succumbed to Dust before or during the Second Cataclysm. Perhaps the "stark choice" between extinction and becoming dust was because of that cataclysm. We know of an event called "the red pestilence" in a hero biography. Perhaps it was a disease that the people on the Amber Plains were infected with and were thus prompted to transcend their organic bodies. What can be said is that there is a Broken Lords hero, full with dust affliction, in Dungeon of the Endless which takes place during the Second Cataclysm. We also see a Roving Clans merchant there as well, showing that the distinction between the once homogeneous group became complete.



We thus come to the Mezari and Success , which was shot down by an Endless defensive turret still active. The survivors of the crash, upon seeing the cataclysmic state of Auriga, decided to hide in the mountains and underground. They eventually became the Vaulters. It was also during that time that the Vaulters experimented on a number of their members to see if they could be adapted to Auriga's harsh climate. The experiments rebelled and were cast out, becoming the Forgotten.



V. Post-Second Cataclysm



Things once again calmed down in Auriga. We are not sure for how long, but it seems significant enough. Possibly a few centuries.



I like to think that it was around that time that the Wild Walkers became addicted to the sharing. I also like to think that the Wild Walkers were in fact "human", who used dust to project their conciousness into animals (a la Virtual, almost). However, the process is unstable and resulted in permanent physical alterations as well as hormonal ones, when the dust transferred the conciousness back into the original body . It led to the physical transformation of the Wild Walkers, with constant use of the Sharing resulting in more animalistic appearances and behaviours. It is unclear whether the Wild Walkers were designed that way or if they discovered this application of dust on their own (without, of course, understanding it. We have had several examples of "dust magic" used by denizens of Auriga without actually understanding it).



VI. The earthquake and the coming of the Third Cataclysm - events in Endless Legend.



It appears that the beginning of the Third Cataclysm and Auriga's re-descent into degradation were signalled by a massive earthquake that we see referenced in the Vaulter intro as well as in a number of biographies.



The earthquake forced the Vaulters to leave their underground cities and to start a new life on the surface. A splinter group of the Forgotten decided to move south, possibly due to unbearable living conditions in the North at the offset of that earthquake. A big part of the Necrophages got united under He Who Meddles, who somehow acquired a high level of sentience and self-awareness, either the result of an accident or a deliberate experiment. The Cult and the Unspoken made more explicit moves. The Wild Walkers decided to leave the forests and start to build. The Drakken, sensing another cataclysm, take it upon themselves to bring order and peace to Auriga and ensure collaboration. The Broken Lords continue to wrestle between their honour and necessity. The Roving Clans continue to amass dust in an effort to learn about it (mirroring the Concretes). And the Ardent Mages continue to explore body-mind disassociation using dust (mirroring the Virtuals). And finally, the Allayi seem to have returned to the fray.



This all coincides with the resurgence of the Guardians, as the winters on Auriga become erratic, longer, and harsher.



All we know of what happens during that time is the flight of the Grey Owl, carrying with it a dust crystal similar to the one in Dungeon of the Endless, before it explodes and seemingly releases Dust into the universe.



--------------------------



This is how I interpret all the information we have around and how I make sense of the timeline. If you have alternative interpretations, comments, or feedback, please do share! I love the Endless lore and I love speculating about it with anyone who is interested (or isn't, as some have suffered).



Of course, official feedback from the devs would be awesome and greatly appreciated!

I'm not trying to be mean (well, okay, just a bit), but I am sick, overwhelmed with work, and leaving on vacation this weekend so I don't have a lot of time right now.



However, I will make an effort over the next few days to clarify some of the big questions that have been brought up and to confirm or correct some of the assumptions. Please note that things that I view as spoiler-ish I won't make comments on. You'll have to wait and see how the story of the Endless universe evolves after the final release of Endless Space 2...



Ad astra!



Slowhands, the Loremeister

Fieswurst wrote:
Be honest there was some wine and crazy cheese involved when you created this game!

Nothing that I will admit on a public forum

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:
(k, I'm french. Can we have some wine please )

First Games2Gether, then Beers2Gether, now Grapes2Gether! .png" alt="smiley: " title="" />

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
How would the Cultists and Allayi perceive each other, btw? On a superficial level, both hate the Endless and would be natural enemies of the Drakken. Would they ally out of convenience? Or would the Allayi view the Cultists as too much of Endless-spawned abominations and the Cultists would try to convert the Allayi too belligerently?

I think the Allayi, who worship Mother Auriga and view it as their home, would find the Cultists to be a strange abomination of the hated Endless. Regardless of whether or not they have a common enemy, to the Allayi the Cultists are not a natural part of the cycle of Auriga so they do not "belong" there.

Stop trying to give Slowhands a stroke!





(Joke aside, nice find, I'll send it to him and watch the man finesse his way out of the situation)

A Note on things stated



as to a "master manipulator" on Auriga, the impression given across the course of gaming is that Auriga Herself, possibly through the power of Dust, is Alive And Sentient. This explains the Guardians activity (as they are siad to be commanded by Auriga herself), the rising of the Allayi NOW rather than before (as they are the closest to the planet), and various other minutiae.



Also as to humans of all forms, the endless wars happened a LONG ♥♥♥♥ING TIME before any of the games. It is implied that all forms of humans were created by the Endless (on various planets) for whatever reasons. This would include Earth AND Auriga. And wherever the Mezari came from. IE standard sci-fi "Humans Are Aliens" ploy. as for the "ancestry" of the Broken Lords, it should be noted that biological incompatibility basically doesn't exist at the Endless tech level, they were all either artificial bodies (for the Virtuals), cyber-enhanced and/or bio-modified, and the last days of the Endless before the Dust War broke out are explicitly stated to be jam-packed with excess and perversity. I can EASILY see multiple Concretes, whose bodies could be Dust-Altered at will, "getting dirty" with their own creations.



Craziest thing? according to extended setting canon HERE, the Endless were originally 4 distinct sub-species.



SIDENOTE FOR SLOWHANDS: that page needs to be edited. According to it, the Tragedy Of Kyros, caused by misusing Dust, EXPLICITY is labeled as being PRIOR to the DISCOVERY of Dust. OOPS. Internal Inconsistency HO!

--Relevant Entry-- (Asterisks added to emphasize error)

SpaceTroll wrote:
The Recusion

*As a result of the Tragedy of Kyros*, their process of discovery began to revolve around a set of rules called "They Must Be Remembered”, an extension of the teyuns, which was based on development of moon-based observation posts, passive probes, and long term analysis. Planets were only marked as targets for colonization after decades of research, and in fact most Endless explorers moved on to discover the wonders of other stars and planets rather than put up with the ages-long wait until it was determined that one was declared exploitable.

Three centuries of the Endless *therefore* grew up more in ships, mined asteroids, and constructed orbitals than on planetary surfaces. Their physiology began to evolve, as the lack of gravity made fundamental changes in their bodies.

As these changes began to alter the fundamental philosophy and morphology of the Endless peoples, *a third thing came along* that would be equally disruptive – a substance known as *Dust*.

Slowhands wrote:


We could make all the species of the Endless universe bizarre alien mutations, but then the game would just look like some incomprehensible over-artsy creation by a nutty French studio who caught brain fever from eating too much unpasteurized cheese...

Be honest there was some wine and crazy cheese involved when you created this game!

Greetings from Germany which I think is in need of creative people like you

(and better wine by the way .png" alt="smiley: " title="" />)

Slowhands wrote:
I agree with you on that.



Unfortunately, pragmatically, the question is a lot more complicated.

Oh, I understand that, and I don't have any problem whatsoever with humanoid aliens. After all, I'd probably be one of those people who wouldn't be interested in a story without humans and full of utterly bizarre creatures, and I tend to think that humans or human-like beings are inherently more interesting than even the most imaginative aliens anyone could come up with, if only because we are humans. So we agree on that much.



Not to mention that I don't believe humanoid aliens are all that implausible. In fact, I'd venture they are much more likely than Lovecraftian Starfish Aliens — after all, a civilization-building, space-faring species would require some proper appendices to manipulate tools, at the very least. We may not know what aliens look like, but we do know from the history of planet Earth of one particular morphology that favors sapience.



When I say that I don't want non-human things that look human, I am referring to Rubber-Forehead Aliens and Human Aliens. I can accept that a sapient species evolved a humanoid form because of convergent evolution, but that explanation falls short of addressing why two species who evolved in two different planets can find each other physically attractive.



In short, I have no problems with the Allayi, but I would be somewhat disappointed if the Wild Walkers weren't related to humans somehow and just happened to evolve to be very, very similar. And as a self-confessed fantasy geek, well... Secondary worlds don't have to obey any rules that apply to the real one. Everything goes as long as they are internally consistent. Science fiction does not have the same luxury.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Awesome!



How would the Cultists and Allayi perceive each other, btw? On a superficial level, both hate the Endless and would be natural enemies of the Drakken. Would they ally out of convenience? Or would the Allayi view the Cultists as too much of Endless-spawned abominations and the Cultists would try to convert the Allayi too belligerently?

I've wondered as much myself. I don't think they'd get along, but have more of a "as long as you don't get in the way you can do your thing in peace" kind of attitude towards each other.

Slowhands wrote:
the game would just look like some incomprehensible over-artsy creation by a nutty French studio who caught brain fever from eating too much unpasteurized cheese...

Yaaaaaaaaayyyyy \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/



(k, I'm french. Can we have some wine please )

Slowhands wrote:
It's easier with fantasy; people just accept that Middle Earth or Nirn (Skyrim) or Westeros or wherever are filled with beings that are not from Earth but look, dress, eat, talk, fight, and procreate just like we do.

People accept in SF that's there's gravity in ships, and that different people behaves under the same gravity, with the same language. Let's say FTL travelling is okay for the basics of a space-op universe.

How NPC/PC people handle atmosphere, gravity and language are elements I dislike a lot in SF (language for fantasy universes), that's something I always try to make a special attention in my amateur pnp rpg creations



The "evolved monkey" problem is not that much of a problem if you manage to explain it.

Here for exemple, we don't really know if the Endless only allowed monkeys to evolve, or change DNA of species to have head with 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth, two legs and two arms. That leads to the question, "if they did this, what was the purpose ? Concrete could made those vessels for unvirtualizing Virtuals maybe ?"

Gwydden wrote:
If there's one thing I most certainly don't want in any self-respecting science fiction setting, is things that aren't human but look like humans.

I agree with you on that.



Unfortunately, pragmatically, the question is a lot more complicated.



Artists are used to drawing humans, players are used to playing humans, dev tools are designed to use humanoid references, etc. We could make all the species of the Endless universe bizarre alien mutations, but then the game would just look like some incomprehensible over-artsy creation by a nutty French studio who caught brain fever from eating too much unpasteurized cheese...



As gamers or creators we can relate to humans; the use of human facial expressions and body language in art and human phrases in text make science fiction and fantasy comprehensible. That is why every single IP out there does it. Westeros isn't Earth, why should they be human? Earth isn't in the Star Wars galaxy (other than jokes and non-canon references, I think) -- ditto.



For purely creative reasons, I would have loved as an SF writer to create a universe without a single humanoid species, full of creatures derived from analyses by astrobiologists and speculative thinkers. But we probably would have sold about ten copies, and I'd be flipping hamburgers to pay the rent.



The problem we have is that we either invent a new universe and put humanoids in it so the players have avatars and NPC's they can relate to, or we project our Earth into the future (Star Trek, Firefly, ...) which ties our hands narratively and forces us to invent lots of explanations about how Earth fits into things. It's easier with fantasy; people just accept that Middle Earth or Nirn (Skyrim) or Westeros or wherever are filled with beings that are not from Earth but look, dress, eat, talk, fight, and procreate just like we do.



So we just did what JRRT and GRRM did, except with space travel and the Endless and Dust.

Awesome!



How would the Cultists and Allayi perceive each other, btw? On a superficial level, both hate the Endless and would be natural enemies of the Drakken. Would they ally out of convenience? Or would the Allayi view the Cultists as too much of Endless-spawned abominations and the Cultists would try to convert the Allayi too belligerently?

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Were they uplifted in part to help fight the Allayi? Or, since the Allayi are described as having a certain majesty and aura of authority, the Drakken were uplifted to replace them as stewards? Am I right to think that the Drakken's ability to project their will is by Endless design?

Basically, yes! The Allayi and the Guardians, who were the original caretakers of Auriga and tied to powers that predate the Endless, resisted the invasion of the Endless. When the superior power of the Endless finally drove the Allayi into hiding and enslaved the Guardians, the Endless sought another native race who could replace the role of stewards and caretakers -- but, of course, programmed by the Endless and under their power.

I thought maybe before the coming of the Endless they could have been natural enemies, Allayi being the first sentient species and caretakers, but the Drakken being... dragons.

Gwydden wrote:
If there's one thing I most certainly don't want in any self-respecting science fiction setting, is things that aren't human but look like humans.

Yea it would be a bit lazy. I think the Mezari are human, similar to the humans of the Empire / Pilgrims.



Based on the Allayi quest, the theory that the Scythers ('Nemesis') were based on the Allayi seems to be correct. There is also a pearl armor piece that talks about a war fought between the Drakken and the Allayi. I wonder if this was during the Dust Wars, or if it happened later after the destruction of the Endless.



The Drakken and Allayi would be natural enemies for a whole mess of reasons.

Picrasso wrote:
Considering the Vaulters, that's a difficult one. Either the Mezari come from Earth or they are not human at all and just look like humans.

If there's one thing I most certainly don't want in any self-respecting science fiction setting, is things that aren't human but look like humans.

I think the Necrophages are a creation of the Concrete Endless to counter the Virtuals/Cravers.





Considering the Vaulters, that's a difficult one. Either the Mezari come from Earth or they are not human at all and just look like humans. ES lore suggests they are galactical drifters, that before Auriga they had another home planet, but were unlucky and had cataclysms. There could also be different clans, one getting stuck on Auriga and escaping. Others who still roamed the galaxy.



BTW, I didn't know the Cultists (Queen, Unspoken) were designed by remorseful Endless. Never got that far into their quests I reckon.