KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I suppose it depends on what you do in your games.



So overall, we are talking about an expenditure of ~700+ pearls, ~500 of which are from pearl buildings. So a 40% discount on pearl buildings from an Allayi governor with zealous hands translates to about 200 pearls saved. That's quite substantial and for a pearl-centric strategy, quite beneficial.

That is definitely a lot of pearls saved. Do you know if there is more than tier 1 pearl gear? Because I still feel like by the end of the game, an allayi will still have an abundance of extra pearls that will go unused. Not saying the 500-700 spent is a little amount, I just think by the 4th, 5th winter, pearls are almost obsolete.



Please tell me if you think otherwise! This is just the vibe i get from it.

I'm all for giving the Allayi the ability to get rid of captured cities faster than normal. They don't have to be instant-raze, but I think that time should definitely be reduced.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


- They could get a skill that allows them to take proper control of recently conquered cities more quickly, as that would help with the unwanted "overextension" until you are able to salt the city, and would fit with them commanding respect from the "lesser" people of Auriga.

That's an addition I agree with. I don't think the Allayi are meant to be economic administrators on the same level as the Cultists or Wild Walkers. I think they are meant to fulfill a specific role focused on pearls, and potentially, defense in tandem with pearl structures.



One idea I have in mind is to incorporate ownership bonus to the bribery reduction. It wouldn't require a change in the skill tree and it would make bribery reduction a more useful skill for the Allayi (so far, I have not found much incentive in having it at level 2). Level 1 could provide a 25% increase in ownership rate, and level 2 brings it up to 50%, in addition to the bribery cost reduction. That way, it wouldn't replace the more focused RC hero skill.

The Pearl Cost reduction on Allayi governors can definitely be useful. If you got it at level 2, then spending the equivalent of 50 pearls saves you about 20 (depending on rounding on the individual expenditures), so enough for another skyfin or two special boroughs (3 special boroughs with the reduction).

The bribe cost reduction can also be very useful on cultists, though less so on Allayi.

And with a high damage bow, the healing my not be as powerful as the dedicated support units, but it is still a valuable asset.



That being said, they are definitely not strong governors, and while I believe they aren't intended to be strong governors, they could receive a few tweaks that might make them better governors or "special purpose heroes."



- They could receive a skill to reduce assignment cooldown like the Wild Walkers and Forgotten.

- During the beta, the idea of giving them a "shifting boost" or "Shifting Efficiency" came up, which would provide a different bonus in summer and winter (e.g. Food in summer, but science in winter as they withdraw).

- Similarly, they could receive a FIDSI-boost depending on the approval of the city

- They could get a skill that allows them to take proper control of recently conquered cities more quickly, as that would help with the unwanted "overextension" until you are able to salt the city, and would fit with them commanding respect from the "lesser" people of Auriga.

- Bonuses tied to anomalies might also fit into their theme, as they would probably be well-versed in handling Mother Auriga's bounties (even if the faction quest implies that those anomalies are not willing gifts). Perhaps an approval bonus that would help alleviate their approval problems after conquest in at least a few choice cities governed by Allayi.

You have right that is possible to set games with rules.



The problem it's there is not enough active multiplayer players to do it. But you have right, without enough motivation, gathering some players, making a balance mold, would be possible.



Again I don't think I will do, because there is a lack of in the pool of players.

Jojo_Fr wrote:
No custom factions because most of competitive players don't want it, which I approve because if the type factions are very unbalanced, the custom faction are heavy unbalanced. Beginners have no point of which are the best custom traits, and are even more dominated in game.



In final point, best players only always choose the same custom traits (in economy mainly) because they are great and game changer.



Just an exemple : you can play Allari with district, no garth, and normal population growth. So you can have all their winter immunities, good quest, very fast units, and skyfin, without their main dowmnsize (the growth limitation + city expasion disapproval)...

If you're doing league play (which I saw in someone's signature), there's nothing stopping you from setting up your own league rules and banning or restricting traits or setting up whatever rules you want.



It would take time and effort, but you seem like you put a lot of thought into your posts as well. So why not put your effort into something that you would have more control over? You could even just "fix" certain races, by making a similar but slightly adjusted custom factions. You'd have to convince the community, but I imagine that'd be easier in comparison.



The fact is that most competitive communities are driven by the community rather than the developers. DOTA 2, Starcraft Brood Wars, Street Fighter, etc. all started at the community level. But even a small game like Dawn of War II: Retribution can have a fan driven community (developers went out of business), and they do their own balance patches, add new content, and run tournaments.



Not saying all that will happen, but I checked out the league link at seemed like there is a community there. Why not get some of the top players together and figure out some rules to create the competitive experience your looking for? I mean, I have zero quality input to contribute, but if be interested in trying it out of you did.

zeroisnine wrote:
Why not just do custom factions? Seems more sensible to just DIY a competitive metagame then wait/hope on the developers, who tbh, have more important things to do with their time (Endless Space 2 at least).

No custom factions because most of competitive players don't want it, which I approve because if the type factions are very unbalanced, the custom faction are heavy unbalanced. Beginners have no point of which are the best custom traits, and are even more dominated in game.



In final point, best players only always choose the same custom traits (in economy mainly) because they are great and game changer.



Just an exemple : you can play Allari with district, no garth, and normal population growth. So you can have all their winter immunities, good quest, very fast units, and skyfin, without their main dowmnsize (the growth limitation + city expasion disapproval)...

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I think the idea is that because of their low population growth, the Allayi really favor regions with 2-3 villages to get the much needed pop (doubled with Chapel of Auriga). So if you get an annoying quest (or they are refusing to negotiate), instead of killing them and wasting time rebuilding the villages, you can just bribe them at a lower cost.



That said, I prefer to kill uncooperative villages for the exp (and re-building villages is also exp for governors). So I haven't found a compelling use for bribery when playing the Allayi.



However, I can definitely see it being useful if you hire an Allayi military commander as the Cult. Not only does the Allayi hero fit very well with the Cultist military (can keep up with them in winter, once they are equipped and become winter immune; complements their regeneration from equipment; gives +1 range to Nameless Guards), but they can also help you convert villages by bribing them first (reducing the influence cost).



So Cultists using an Allayi commander with bribery reduction might be a cool strategy.

Yeah, I haven't done the math, but I've generally assumed and gotten the impression that Bribes were inefficient. Making them more efficient, maybe makes them par for the course?



But even then, it still makes no real reason use it with the Allayi, imo. The value to reducing the cost of a Bribe seems extremely low objectively and seems like it'd generally provide a negligible benefit.



It's okay-ish out of faction (where you'll expand more and thus you'll Bribe more). But it just feels very out of place in faction.

Jojo_Fr wrote:
This obsession is motivaed by the will to have more pleasure in MP, more replaybility, more diversity in strategy, so in long term, more clients for Endless Legend.



It does matter very much for a minority of players, but I know most of players just want fresh experience.



Me too I want fresh experience. For exemple more viable governors mean more fresh experience. It would be bad if Allayi would be only viable and competitive in rude winter setting, for exemple.

Why not just do custom factions? Seems more sensible to just DIY a competitive metagame then wait/hope on the developers, who tbh, have more important things to do with their time (Endless Space 2 at least).

40% Peal reduction is not joke for the allayi. When building districts later on wich you need to do to keep up on economy you will save SO MANY PEARLS. A must for the allayi imo.

I love the bribery cost reduction trait. Bribing is literally buying population with dust, you´re getting a discount on buying population with dust with the faction that gets the least food of all.



Good idea with the Cult, too, I have to try that.

zeroisnine wrote:
Is there some use to the bribe reduction skills? Aside from the obvious. Didn't really seem to mesh with any strategy with them as far as I can tell.

I think the idea is that because of their low population growth, the Allayi really favor regions with 2-3 villages to get the much needed pop (doubled with Chapel of Auriga). So if you get an annoying quest (or they are refusing to negotiate), instead of killing them and wasting time rebuilding the villages, you can just bribe them at a lower cost.



That said, I prefer to kill uncooperative villages for the exp (and re-building villages is also exp for governors). So I haven't found a compelling use for bribery when playing the Allayi.



However, I can definitely see it being useful if you hire an Allayi military commander as the Cult. Not only does the Allayi hero fit very well with the Cultist military (can keep up with them in winter, once they are equipped and become winter immune; complements their regeneration from equipment; gives +1 range to Nameless Guards), but they can also help you convert villages by bribing them first (reducing the influence cost).



So Cultists using an Allayi commander with bribery reduction might be a cool strategy.

Is there some use to the bribe reduction skills? Aside from the obvious. Didn't really seem to mesh with any strategy with them as far as I can tell.

o0ber wrote:
That is definitely a lot of pearls saved. Do you know if there is more than tier 1 pearl gear? Because I still feel like by the end of the game, an allayi will still have an abundance of extra pearls that will go unused. Not saying the 500-700 spent is a little amount, I just think by the 4th, 5th winter, pearls are almost obsolete.



Please tell me if you think otherwise! This is just the vibe i get from it.

I don't think there is more than tier 1 pearl gear, but honestly they are wasted on the Allayi. They don't need it at all.



There will come a point when pearls will become obsolete, yes. Once you build everything, the only use you have for pearls are skyfins, shifting, and voting. But when you constantly spend pearls during early and mid-game to set up your cities and economy, the 20%/40% discount helps boosting your reserve for voting, shifting, and pearl stockpiles.



Incidentally, I recommend using pearl stockpiles if you find yourself not using pearls, especially science stockpiles. It's a good way to put idle and highly productive cities to work, by either shifting its production to food or industry for other, less mature, cities, or by boosting your science (which I prefer). This becomes quite potent once you upgrade your stockpiles as well.

The more I play, the more I realize that an Allayi governor is a great asset for a pearl-centric strategy. My experience is solely based on single player (large map, hard world difficulty, normal speed, against serious AI, Guardians disabled), so I will not make presumptions on whether the Allayi hero is economically useful in a fast paced game or not.



Despite the Allayi having a clear advantage in the pearl race, the pearl expenditure starts to skyrocket by mid-game because of the sheer number of things you can do with pearls from voting, to buildings, to defensive improvements, as well as the exponential increase of pearl cost of Garths. In addition, I personally go for a stockpile centric economy, as upgraded stockpiles costing only 600 industry and 8 pearls for 600 // is quite appealing.



In my experience, I have found an Allayi governor with zealous hands to be invaluable, cutting the pearl expenditure vis-a-vis buildings by 40%. It really starts to matter, especially when you are asked to build the ward of Auriga on all your cities (30 pearls each). They are not the best for overseeing a city for long durations (even with inspiring leader, which they can access relatively easily), but that's not their point. Their use is taking over a city, queeing all the pearl improvements that you need (they don't even need to oversee their completion), and then moving on to the next city.



In addition, I equip them with the pearl equipment granting them Auriga affinity 3 (so I don't have to waste skills on it) and use them to collect pearls at the start of each winter, after which I assign them to erecting pearl structures. Eventually, I give them the adamantium accessory that gives them fast learner, so the exp gain from each pearl (3 exp) is boosted a bit. Since they are not the best overall governors, they should really not stay idle and should be used to the fullest, and using them for pearl collection in and around your empire is a good investment.



Finally, I've started investing skills and equipment to boost city and regional defences, using pearl equipment that grants retaliation boosts, with towers having been set up in key locations across the empire (each tower costing 6 pearls instead of 10). In case of emergency, I've found much use in the Allayi being "defence" governors, so putting skill points into defensive skills in the general tree might be a good idea, especially since the racial tree has nothing else of use for a governor.



These 3 roles make the Allayi an interesting and unique sort of governor. A "proselytiser" rather than a purely economic / industrial administrator, running from city to city, collecting pearls and erecting pearl improvements, while occasionally manning the defences of threatened regions. It is, of course, micro-heavy, but I have found it a lot of fun. Truly, Shifters added a lot of these small nuances that I'm enjoying discovering. Well done!



Has anyone else found small strategies like that?

o0ber wrote:


As far as the reduction cost on pearl buildings, that seems like a good solid plan you use Pheonix, but it has been rare for me to run low on my amount of pearls. Therefore, I don't need to get the use Allayi heroes as a governor because its not really necessary.

I suppose it depends on what you do in your games.



In my game, I was sitting on 5 cities by turn ~100 (normal speed), with 5 winter boroughs (50 pearls), 5 abbeys of the anomaly (50 pearls), 6 strategic / luxury intensifiers (60 pearls), 4 Chapels of Auriga (40 pearls), 4 Ice-works (40 pearls), several pearl towers (let's say 30 pearls), 5 Wards of Auriga (150 pearls), and 4 cities were 3x3 triangles or more with 1 being a 4x4 triangle, so quite a few Garths (let's say 100 pearls). All that, in addition to 4 skyfins + starter (80 pearls), a dozen pearl stockpiles (~100 pearls), occasional shifting, and aggressive voting.



So overall, we are talking about an expenditure of ~700+ pearls, ~500 of which are from pearl buildings. So a 40% discount on pearl buildings from an Allayi governor with zealous hands translates to about 200 pearls saved. That's quite substantial and for a pearl-centric strategy, quite beneficial.

I've really appreciated Allayi hero on my armies, especially removing the terrain movement penalties. Too be honest, I have not really tried using them as a governor because they don't provide much fidsi bonus at all.



As far as the reduction cost on pearl buildings, that seems like a good solid plan you use Pheonix, but it has been rare for me to run low on my amount of pearls. Therefore, I don't need to get the use Allayi heroes as a governor because its not really necessary.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Giving the Allayi ways to reduce expansion disapproval, other than the many ways that are already available (not to mention activating several boosters), goes against their lore and fundamental design. They are not meant to expand.



The only thing I'd add in that regard, is a way for the Allayi to destroy conquered cities a bit quicker. It can be as simple as a reduction of the time needed for full ownership (they are constantly described as being awe-inspiring).



I wouldn't mind a small pearl cost reduction of Garths, but only small. Definitely not 25%. And that's why having an Allayi governor might not be a bad idea, because he will reduce the cost by 40%.

This was exactly my take on them when I played. I could have ended my wars a lot faster if they had an ability that halved the time needed for salting to be available. Otherwise they do just fine.

Giving the Allayi ways to reduce expansion disapproval, other than the many ways that are already available (not to mention activating several boosters), goes against their lore and fundamental design. They are not meant to expand.



The only thing I'd add in that regard, is a way for the Allayi to destroy conquered cities a bit quicker. It can be as simple as a reduction of the time needed for full ownership (they are constantly described as being awe-inspiring).



I wouldn't mind a small pearl cost reduction of Garths, but only small. Definitely not 25%. And that's why having an Allayi governor might not be a bad idea, because he will reduce the cost by 40%.

Slashman wrote:
Except there are a fair number of people who are demonstrating that the Allayi are very viable and no where near as gimped as you're making it out to be.



The problem with looking at MP only for a game like this is that there is no way to make diplomacy matter in it. It is one of the reasons why I have zero interest in MP in these types of games. I can in no way count on MP players playing with any sort of personality matching their faction and it just becomes the same slog to do the same things as efficiently as possible. Fun and my own personal pace of play be damned. 4X games simply do not have large MP communities. Your obsession is motivated by wanting more MP clients for EL and no matter what the balance for the game is, that is very unlikely to happen.



The fact remains though that I still won with my first game playing the Allayi despite all these shortcomings you keep saying they have. Maybe there are slight balance changes to be made, but I tend to seriously doubt those will be anything near the magnitude of what you're trying to propose in your other thread.



All that aside, I think the Allayi are one of the most interesting factions in the game and I really have little to complain about with them.

They demonstrate nothing. Off course they are viable against A.I, even againt the occasional multiplayer guy. I am playing them and I won most of the games, but it's because I am largely better than most of the players. But against players of my level, as BigBalls or Grinder, they will own me most of the time, due to this big difference of economic power between Allayi and the others.



Everything is viable, you can even play without governor, without hero etc. but it's not competitive so it leads in multiplayer to a simple situation : no one in competitive games will play Allayi, as no one in competitive games played Forgottens before they were buffed (with monument +10 dust, and now with few small buff from the Extension).



There is no contradiction between your way of playing and mine, I just want a more balance game, I don't want to nerf the natural features of the Allayi what you like, and me too I like them very much.



The main propositions are :



- Buffing the Allayi hero as governor. Buffing them especially when used on Allayi cities (Garth bonus).

- Giving ways to reduce (with techs or quest) the massive allayi expansion disapproval, to make them more possible to conquer cities or expand in the late game.

- Reduce by 25 % the Garth cost, because now it absorb mainly the pearls, which is a bit stupid because the main allayi advantage should be to collect more pearls, but this advantage is deleted by the massive pearl cost of garth.

- Giving access to all winter graces to allayi at the first winter, no need to wait the third (small buff but interesting).





These propositions won't change the lore or the features of the Allayi, it would be the contrary I think.

Jojo_Fr wrote:
This obsession is motivaed by the will to have more pleasure in MP, more replaybility, more diversity in strategy, so in long term, more clients for Endless Legend.



It does matter very much for a minority of players, but I know most of players just want fresh experience.



Me too I want fresh experience. For exemple more viable governors mean more fresh experience. It would be bad if Allayi would be only viable and competitive in rude winter setting, for exemple.

Except there are a fair number of people who are demonstrating that the Allayi are very viable and no where near as gimped as you're making it out to be.



The problem with looking at MP only for a game like this is that there is no way to make diplomacy matter in it. It is one of the reasons why I have zero interest in MP in these types of games. I can in no way count on MP players playing with any sort of personality matching their faction and it just becomes the same slog to do the same things as efficiently as possible. Fun and my own personal pace of play be damned. 4X games simply do not have large MP communities. Your obsession is motivated by wanting more MP clients for EL and no matter what the balance for the game is, that is very unlikely to happen.



The fact remains though that I still won with my first game playing the Allayi despite all these shortcomings you keep saying they have. Maybe there are slight balance changes to be made, but I tend to seriously doubt those will be anything near the magnitude of what you're trying to propose in your other thread.



All that aside, I think the Allayi are one of the most interesting factions in the game and I really have little to complain about with them.

Slashman wrote:
Or maybe KnightofPhoenix just does what's fun and makes his game interesting.



What is this obsession you have with everything needing to be the most optimal strategy? Why does it matter? You can play the Allayi in a number of different ways. No governor is useless if its doing what you want it to do for your particular strategy. I used an Ardent Mage governor in my last game and won quite well with a wonder victory. She wasn't useless.



I don't know if multiplayer is your obsession or what but to most players (who don't play multiplayer anyway) it doesn't make a lick of difference. Why do you get to tell someone that their strategy isn't powerful when it clearly works for them?

This obsession is motivaed by the will to have more pleasure in MP, more replaybility, more diversity in strategy, so in long term, more clients for Endless Legend.



It does matter very much for a minority of players, but I know most of players just want fresh experience.



Me too I want fresh experience. For exemple more viable governors mean more fresh experience. It would be bad if Allayi would be only viable and competitive in rude winter setting, for exemple.

BPrado wrote:
Now, it takes ages to level a second Allayi hero bought from the Market

I didn't find it that time consuming, if you also use that hero for pearl collection with the Auriga Affinity 3 accessory (3xp per cluster), as well as building a few improvements when there is nothing to do. Of course it's nothing as fast as with your starting hero (esp with Guardian content, which I deactivate). But I prefer to use the starting hero as a military commander, because I find them fun on a tactical / operational level.

Building the Altar+Megapole with their Starting hero as governor will 90% of times take it to level 3 for 20% pearl reduction. That takes the first Garth from 10 to 8, the second garth from 12 to 10, then Altar is level 2, then third garth for 12 and Megapole is level 2, and hero is halfway through to level 4 in 3-4 turns. One unit stack probably reaches level 4, then you´re back at 12 pearls for the fourth garth (which should be costing almost 20).



This all looks very little, but since they´re wonder oriented and need tons of production, they need a huge capital; and then 40% discount start to become very noticeable when garths were supposed to be costing 40 pearls each. Now, it takes ages to level a second Allayi hero bought from the Market - it certainly doesn´t fit into their quest timing as well as using their main hero. On the other hand, after you left your capital with altar, megapole, canal locks and 5 garths, any hero you place to govern there will get a huge amount of xp every turn simply because the city will have huge industry.



I do recommend now a Wild Walkers over a Cult or Necro because of the discount to building production (for the wonder). After you´ve grown your capital, you can switch governors with your small city and then start growing that one for half the price.





I just think it´s funny jojo should mention Drakken as a poor governor since he hates force truce and that´s the one thing Drakken governors do.

As I said, the Allayi hero is not my main governor / administrator. That role is reserved to a Cultist governor (in my game, Andom the Seer, but Exid the Chosen and Ozek the Chosen are also great options). The Allayi governor has a very specific role, which they do quite well. Yes, it is very micro-heavy and is not a "governorship" in the classical sense of the term, but it is a unique role that I found enjoyable to play with and potent in the games that I have played. But by no means did I base my economy on him.



This Allayi "pearl governor" was my 3rd hero, followed by an Ardent mage science governor and a Forgotten spy. My starting hero was my main military commander, and my 2nd hero was Andom the Seer because a Cultist governor is always a great long term investment.



As for using stockpiles when you are not mass expanding, I use science stockpiles primarily. But I have used food and industry stockpiles to jumpstart 2-3 cities when I first founded them, so I definitely did find a use for them. In fact, the Allayi are the only faction with which I have found stockpiles appealing. It is true that the Allayi aren't the only ones with access to pearl stockpiles. But they are the only ones who can have an economy centred around them, because of their superiority in pearl collection.

Or maybe KnightofPhoenix just does what's fun and makes his game interesting.



What is this obsession you have with everything needing to be the most optimal strategy? Why does it matter? You can play the Allayi in a number of different ways. No governor is useless if its doing what you want it to do for your particular strategy. I used an Ardent Mage governor in my last game and won quite well with a wonder victory. She wasn't useless.



I don't know if multiplayer is your obsession or what but to most players (who don't play multiplayer anyway) it doesn't make a lick of difference. Why do you get to tell someone that their strategy isn't powerful when it clearly works for them?

Your strategy is cool, fun, but not powerfull. You try to do something.



You do better to put Exid the Chosen or a a slaver necro, or Ipsa Wacha if there are forest, and use them to build more units, so grabing more pearls accross the world.



And use the Allayi heroes are permanant pearls collectors. But in long term, it's better to just use a monk or a seeker with a auriga affinity item, really less expansive.



Moreover, yes stockpiles are great, but stockpiles with pearls are free to any race, not Allayi, so it's not an exclusive advantage. And Allayi have huge difficulties to expand and growth, so what will you do with your stockpiles, if you are limited to 2 then 3 city 50 % of the game, then 2 more cities, and generally not more ?



Using stockpiles is great if you mass expand, because you can instant add food or industry (but using dust + tech and plans are enough interesting to urge buildings).







Allayi governor should juste have more economic bonus. A governor is a governir, he cannot collect things pearls, and return to city after, or something like that, because it needs time to reload them, and because it's not really interesting.



And there are already too much useless governors, players who are optimizer always use the sames traits : dust efficiency, industry efficiently, slaver, cultist governor, and Petrov Judith (Science efficiency). Useless governors are : drakkens, allayis and ardent mages.



In my opinion, as Allayi are generalist, and as their are seclusive, players should been incitated to use mostly allayi as governors, but it means they should have specific bonus only usable for them.



It could be :



- Allayi leadership harmony (trait for all allayi hero) : Allayi governor into allayi city reduce by 10 % by level the expansion disapproval.

- Master of the gardens (skill put somewhere after the auriga affinity skill) : Each allayi district level 2 produce in winter one pearl per turn, and any allayi garden produce each turn (winter or summer) 2 dust and 2 food.