Suggestion about combat system - Endless Legend

Suggestion about combat system

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3ntf4k3d

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3ntf4k3d

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11 years ago

Apr 25, 2014, 5:33:30 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
If regions would be even smaller, the choice of "where" you choose your city would be less meaningful.

I think there is another big problem in regards of regions and combat:

Unless I am mistaken, it seems that all units within a region will participate in combat if an attack is declared.

In my last game I had two cities rather close to each other, so the garrison of city B was able to move into the region of city A and within the same turn supported the sally of the garrison from city A, even though the units from city B where still 2 turns away from the battlefield.

I have not yet been able to confirm if there is such a thing as "max range" on this behaviour, but if there is not, then this creates some highly problematic and exploitive scenarios, because:

(A) Armies lose a lot of value - instead you would place each unit individually to intercept an interloper. Or you just send in a single unit that receives assistance from a far away stack that can easily retreat back into your region.

(B) Strategic movement becomes pointless, because you can support units that are out of your strategic reach. All you have to do is set one foot into the region you want to support.

(C) Depending on how borders are drawn, a single army stack could project power in multiple regions (maybe even participate in one battle per turn in each region?).

(D) INTEL (or the lack of it) would turn combat into huge gambles - basicially a single unscouted hex on your border could be an entry point for a massive unknown hostile force participating in combat.

Can anyone confirm if there currently is a range limit for supporting an army in combat? Because this might be a big, big issue!

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MODVieuxChat

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MODVieuxChat

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11 years ago

Apr 25, 2014, 5:36:08 PM

There's a max range to the reinforcement.

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3ntf4k3d

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3ntf4k3d

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11 years ago

Apr 25, 2014, 6:45:42 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
There's a max range to the reinforcement.

That's good.

Mh, maybe that would be a nice tech effect? Like, start with 1-3 and then increase it as the eras progress.

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MODVieuxChat

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MODVieuxChat

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11 years ago

Apr 25, 2014, 7:02:01 PM

I'm not sure that would be that usefull. There's already tech for more reinforcement flag on the battle field. Maybe some tech where the reinforcement get a movement bonus on their first round ?

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VIPPropbuddha

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VIPPropbuddha

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11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 4:14:58 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
It's not at all RTS O_o It's turn based but you have no control apart the initial deployment and the initial orders. You can give new orders two times in battle, every three round.

How does the turn/round stuff work? How many rounds in a turn? What happens if a side is not eliminated in a round? IS it possible to make an army retreat off of their hex without destroying them?

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VIPAnwyl

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VIPAnwyl

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11 years ago

Apr 8, 2014, 9:58:37 PM

they said that you can position troops and give them target priorities.

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VIPNasarog

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VIPNasarog

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11 years ago

Apr 18, 2014, 3:17:55 PM

They did that with ES: D too, I wonder what similarities will exist.

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VIPPropbuddha

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VIPPropbuddha

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11 years ago

Apr 19, 2014, 7:26:01 AM

Based on what I saw in the IGN video there is a deployment phase where you can move troops around. Followed by a targeting phase where you can choose targets for each unit. After targeting the battle animates and the armies fight. I assume all of this was a single round (supposed to be 3 in a turn).

It looked like you could choose a offensive/defensive/??? strategy for each unit in the targeting phase.

Unfortunately all of the battles in the video were one-sided and most showed archers gunning down a single unit. Some of the concepts mentioned in the other previews (like initiative, and height advantage) weren't on display.

It is definitely not Civ-style dice-roll combat. Remains to be seen if tactics will be a big factor vs. pure strength / rock-paper-scissor mechanics...

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MODVieuxChat

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MODVieuxChat

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11 years ago

Apr 19, 2014, 7:55:53 AM

Remember that the game will be an empire-building game. So, the tactic part MUST stay simple enough to be set on auto most of the time. The player shouldn't spend more than a minute (roughly) in the fight : it's not a tactical game. (And i'm a wargamer... I love tactical games)

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VIPPropbuddha

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VIPPropbuddha

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11 years ago

Apr 20, 2014, 8:09:11 AM

VieuxChat wrote:
Remember that the game will be an empire-building game. So, the tactic part MUST stay simple enough to be set on auto most of the time. The player shouldn't spend more than a minute (roughly) in the fight : it's not a tactical game. (And i'm a wargamer... I love tactical games)

I'm totally on board with Amplitude's design philosophy regarding streamlined combat. It's impossible to play a 4X multiplayer game (especially one with more than 2 players) where a tactical battle can last for a half hour (see AoW 3). That said, there is a lot of game play in Endless Legend revolving around warfare (producing and designing units, researching new weapons/armor, conquering minor factions to get access to their units, battle mode, etc.) that I hope the combat system is engaging.

To me, this means that the decisions you make on the battlefield (in "battle mode") are a significant factor in the outcome, in addition to what you bring to battlefield (in "empire mode"). Situations such as god units, bigger/stronger force always winning or tired "cavalry always beats archers"-style balancing would be a big disappointment.

If the battle system is so simple that the decisions you make are no better than setting everything to auto, I'd question why Amplitude would bother building it in the first place.

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MODVieuxChat

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11 years ago

Apr 20, 2014, 8:21:34 AM

I think the battle system may lead to interesting battles where you can change the odds.

But remember that the outcome shouldn't be impossible : the management part of the game shouldn't be rendered "useless" due to tactics.

A stronger force should win 90% of the time. But a good tactician would be able to do great damage with very few units. It's matter or resources spent/lost.

Anyway, the battles will be more interesting than those in ES, for me as for instance the positioning will have an impact. I would be able to explain it further, but I don't know if that would be under some NDA rule

smiley: stickouttongue

For the time being, you'll just have to trust me. Once the early access will be launched, you'll see some gameplay videos.

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Seek

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Seek

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11 years ago

Apr 20, 2014, 2:27:45 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
I think the battle system may lead to interesting battles where you can change the odds.

But remember that the outcome shouldn't be impossible : the management part of the game shouldn't be rendered "useless" due to tactics.

A stronger force should win 90% of the time. But a good tactician would be able to do great damage with very few units. It's matter or resources spent/lost.

Anyway, the battles will be more interesting than those in ES, for me as for instance the positioning will have an impact. I would be able to explain it further, but I don't know if that would be under some NDA rule

For the time being, you'll just have to trust me. Once the early access will be launched, you'll see some gameplay videos.

Is there a Zone of Control/Attack of Opportunity system?

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MODVieuxChat

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MODVieuxChat

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11 years ago

Apr 20, 2014, 2:46:19 PM

NDA NDA NDA Sorry.

Just remember when you'll see early gameplay footage that it's... an "early" "alpha". Meaning the game WON'T HAVE all of its features.

We, VIPs, played the game right from the first pre-alpha, an dI can say to you that the game has already changed a lot in a short time. So my, I repeat... MY, hopes are really high.

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VIPAnwyl

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VIPAnwyl

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11 years ago

Apr 20, 2014, 8:44:14 PM

Whatever the combat is I look forward to it being as cinematic as EL (hopefully) with lots of pre-battle orders but little control otherwise.

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Stealth_Hawk

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Stealth_Hawk

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11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 3:58:21 PM

Speaking of improving combat, since it appears to be RTS, I believe the RTS genre of games has allot of elements that could improve the battle system. To list a few, the way Red Dragon will ultimately handle naval units, how many of the RTS games handled the effects of occupying resources during battle, and the importance of reconnaissance in Airland Battle. Now obviously I don't know allot about the EL combat system, but I do know it needs to be the best it can be.

To be honest, recon was a bit of a disappointment in Endless Space, since in combat they had no real use beyond blowing up. Sure they gave increased accuracy, but that's before they blow up. In Endless Legend though, there seems to be allot more room for recon units to be utilized. Such as increased accuracy the longer ranged units fire.

In the case of Naval units, offshore bombardment has been used as an effective tool since forever, but I was highly disappointed in the way CIV handled it. irl it has been proven extremely hard to hit naval units with unguided artillery, and often times the only way to take out ships is (was) with other ships. Of course, CIV ignored this and made them practically useless against an opponent who knows what they are doing. Additionally combat ships have proven their worth in many support scenarios, and allowing them to serve as a retreat option for individual units might be interesting.

VieuxChat wrote:

A stronger force should win 90% of the time. But a good tactician would be able to do great damage with very few units. It's matter or resources spent/lost.

That depends on how you define winning and losing I guess. I like to think of it as the resources spent and lost, and as such I hope the better tactics "win" at least 70% of the time barring technological superiority and such. It would allow for those "beyond all odds" moments that were never present in the steamrolling ES battles.

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MODVieuxChat

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MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 4:09:15 PM

It's not at all RTS O_o It's turn based but you have no control apart the initial deployment and the initial orders. You can give new orders two times in battle, every three round.

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honglong17

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honglong17

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11 years ago

Apr 8, 2014, 10:37:29 AM

Hello Ampliture, i am someone who own who own Endless Age on steam, and i love it, and i can't wait to see this game release

I want to say some of my suggest on the upcoming implement combat system

I wonder did you ever hear about the game call Takeda on pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfKZ0eEpmmg , in that game you have to set up formation order before each battle . I think you can use something similar like that in this game, You can chose the formation of the troop before battle like wave formation, spearhead formation....etc , but THE LOCATION OF EACH unit in the formation is automatic base on it type, for example, in spearhead formation, the one at the top always be the calavary/shocking/charging unit.

A second thing is. that you shouldn't do the same combat style as CIV. i think you should do something unique to you, like endless space. Mean you only can chose the formation , number and type of troops...but how the battle play out. it will be depend entirely on the AI. I think you should include tactic like spear/shield wall, volley, charge, surround.....etc that counter each other. The formation that we chose at the begining at the battle will be contribute to those tactic. Like double line formation will have bonus for volley tactic, and shieldwall for example.The one chose the tactic in the battle will be it commander, the high exeprience commander will be pick the right tactic to counter enemy tactic

That will be make the combat become much more interesting and unpredictable

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MODVieuxChat

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Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 4:24:10 PM

There's no such thing as "morale" and you can't order your units to flee.

But !

There's 3 turns, each with 3 rounds. Each round the fastest (highest initiative) will act first following the orders given (attack/defend/hold and more importantly, move), then try to attack an adjacent enemy.

IAt th eend of those 3 turns, if both armies are still alive the battle is a draw and "may" continue on next game turn. So you could flee at that moment. Using the terrain to your advantage can let you earn some time to flee. Giv ethe "move" order to your units far away from enemies and you can "simulate" a retreat, waiting for the end of battle.

I really like that way, in fact. I really feels like real warfare, as for instance you could use a unit to "lure" enemy units while the others are moving to a better position.

EDIt: At the end of each turn, you can give new orders and/or new stances (orders are attack or move in fact and stances are "attack/defend/hold your ground")

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Stealth_Hawk

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Stealth_Hawk

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11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 4:27:52 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
It's not at all RTS O_o It's turn based but you have no control apart the initial deployment and the initial orders. You can give new orders two times in battle, every three round.

Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part, but In a sense then its a hybrid system. Many RTS games have Deployment and initial order stages before battle resolution. The only difference is here you cant change unit orders mid phase. But maybe I misunderstood? Is it like ES where the battle is continuous or does everything come to a screeching halt for you to give orders? I hope not because that would mean cinematic atmosphere goes right out the window.

And to be clear I define TBS combat to be like AoWIII or MOO, where you have an end turn button and all that.

Also it has an RTS element of unit initiative, not 100% player ordered (or so it sounds)

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MODVieuxChat

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Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

11 years ago

Apr 21, 2014, 4:30:56 PM

It's more like an automatic turn-based system that stops every turn (so every 3 rounds as a turn is composed of 3 rounds) to let you change your orders/stances.

It's automatic, the gameplay is turn based (on initiative : the highest initiative acts first).

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