SpaceTroll wrote:
Very fascinating and well organized thread guys. Thank you Propbuddha for that initiative! I would love to read what you guys think of the techs of the eras 2, 3 and 4

As per request, here is another tech thread, this time about later game technology.



A short description of all techs in question:



Era II



Military:

Armorer's Guild: +15% unit production in city, 3 upkeep

Mercenary market: Unlocks the mercenaries section of the marketplace

Conscription Center: +40 starting XP for units, 2 upkeep

Tier II Unit: Unlocks the tier II units of each faction

Meritocratic Promotion: +2 max army size, +2 max garrison size



Industry:

Quarry: +1 production on forest tiles, 2 upkeep

Mining Rights: +30% production on city, 2 upkeep

Alchemical Alloys: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel weapons

Alchemical Armor: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel armor

Stockpile: Creates 250 a production stockpile



Economy:

Fish Farm: +2 food on river tiles, 2 upkeep

Forest Management: +3 food per worker, +5 food on city, 2 upkeep

Diplomat's Manse: Allows Peace Treaties when at Cold War

Still Houses: Creates 250 a food stockpile

Tailor's Guild: +1 accesory slot on units

Alchemical Filigree: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel accesories



Empire:

Watchtower: Allows construction of watchtowers, +15% health regen on expansion, +3 vision on expansion





Era III



Military:

Medical Center: +5% health regen on city, 2 upkeep

Imperial Kennels: +4 city defence, 1 upkeep

Materials Hoard: +5 city defence recovery, 1 upkeep



Industry:

Advanced Alchemical Lab: +2 science on district, +3 science per worker, 3 upkeep

Alchemy Workshop. +10 science on city, +30% science on city, 3 upkeep

Royal Institute: Creates a 250 science stockpile

Smelting Station: Unlocks Adamantian and Palladian extractors

Uncommon Alloys: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian weapons

Uncommon Armor: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian armor



Economy:

Dust Refinery: +10 dust on city, +30% dust on city

Dust Depositry: +5 dust per worker

Reaping Station: Unlock Blood Crystal, Grassilk, Moonleaf, Quicksilver and Titan Bones extractors

Imperial Coinage: Unlocks ressource section of the marketplace

Fortified Caravans: +50% Trade Route bonus, 2 upkeep (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Uncommon Filigree: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian accessories



Empire:

Central Market: +30 happiness on city, +10% food while fervent, +10% dust while fervent, 3 upkeep

Aura of Empire: +5 influence on city, +3 influence per worker, 3 upkeep

Bread and Circuses: -20% expansion dissaproval

National Museum: +2 influence on district, 3 upkeep

Right of Way: Unlocks Roads (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Lookout Towers: +20% health regen on expansion, +5 vision on expansion

Cargo Docks: Unlocks Ships for water travel (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Native District: +1 minor faction assimilation on empire





Era IV



Military:

Brigade System: +20% defence on units

Signal Corps: +2 max army size, +2 max garrison size

Economy of Scale: +15% unit production on city, 8 upkeep

Army Manual: +60 starting XP for units, 5 upkeep



Industry:

Production Line: +3 production per worker, 5 upkeep

Automated Production: +1 industry on tiles with industry yield, 5 upkeep

Rare Material Foundry: Unlocks Mithrite and Hyperium extractors

Warehouse: Creates a 250 production stockpile

Rare Alloys: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium weapons

Rare Armor: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium armor



Economy:

Refrigeration Plant: +6 food per worker, 5 upkeep

Fertilizer Plant: +1 food on terrain with food, 5 upkeep

Advanced Harvester: Unlocks Dust Orchid, Dustwater, Hydromiel, Pixie Blood and Redsang extractors

Hospitality Den: Allows Alliance Treaties when at Cold War

Smokehouse: Creates a 250 food stockpile

Rare Filigree: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium accessories

Way of the Woodlands: +50% defence for units in forests (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)



Empire:

Highway Agency: Speed bonus on roads (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Historical Society: Searched ruins can be searched a second time





Era V

Currently no techs available.



Era VI

Currently no techs available.

My opinion on each:



Era II



Military:

Armorer's Guild: +15% unit production in city, 3 upkeep Expansive, in the same time i have buildings giving 30% production bonus.

Mercenary market: Unlocks the mercenaries section of the marketplace Mercenaries are priced very high, i use them only for wildwaker quest.

Conscription Center: +40 starting XP for units, 2 upkeep This one is good for what it does.

Tier II Unit: Unlocks the tier II units of each faction Sure i want it. Althoug Titans seems to be weak, does not more dmg than Officer and is not more tanky, necro slug have low health, and support units sometmes overheal. The treeman is good.



Meritocratic Promotion: +2 max army size, +2 max garrison size One of best from here. At some point it is possible to use the second army from reinforcments. 12 units! o.0



Industry:

Quarry: +1 production on forest tiles, 2 upkeep Never grew my city big enought for that to matter. But looks interesting for right spec.

Mining Rights: +30% production on city, 2 upkeep Foundry gives 30% and flat bonus, and cost less, and builds faster. hmm.

Alchemical Alloys: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel weapons i often skip tier I and just go for it. However if nation gets weapon tier from quests, there is less reason to take it. Low tiers have a very strong tendency to be obsolete later without clear benefit. There could be some additional bonus for having all weapon tech. Like each giving imperial 5% discount for dust when upgrading units.

Alchemical Armor: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel armor as above

Stockpile: Creates 250 a production stockpile stockpiles are great if you have idle city



Economy:

Fish Farm: +2 food on river tiles, 2 upkeep with good location is nice, nice synergy with tier I river tech. Very interesting tech since makes city placing matter.

Forest Management: +3 food per worker, +5 food on city, 2 upkeep Is ok.

Diplomat's Manse: Allows Peace Treaties when at Cold War Never researched it soon enought. Diplomacy is not implemented.

Still Houses: Creates 250 a food stockpile Stockpiles are generally good.

Tailor's Guild: +1 accesory slot on units Not priority but nice to have.

Alchemical Filigree: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel accesories Similar to weapon and armor of that tier.



Empire:

Watchtower: Allows construction of watchtowers, +15% health regen on expansion, +3 vision on expansion Seems to be fun, but never used it.



Generally tier II is lacking, only unit and weapons are very cool (and army size)



Era III



Military:

Medical Center: +5% health regen on city, 2 upkeep Well interesting, however expansive.

Imperial Kennels: +4 city defence, 1 upkeep Besieging dont work well now.

Materials Hoard: +5 city defence recovery, 1 upkeep No idea what it does, waiting for siege.



Industry:

Advanced Alchemical Lab: +2 science on district, +3 science per worker, 3 upkeep Good one.

Alchemy Workshop. +10 science on city, +30% science on city, 3 upkeep Good one, but dosnt it copy Public Library for some riduculous upkeep and cost?

Royal Institute: Creates a 250 science stockpile Stockpiles are great. It would be nice if you can burn more than 1 stockpile with few clicks.

Smelting Station: Unlocks Adamantian and Palladian extractors Must have. I really like the balance of Adamantian/Palladian since it is straighforward. I think this 2 would make better tier 1 minerals. Crits are very fancy stat, and not effective when your attack is low. Also without quest techs (legendary Glassteetl) this makes tier 2 tech (and tier 1 as well) obsolate.

Uncommon Alloys: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian weapons As said.

Uncommon Armor: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian armor as said





Economy:

Dust Refinery: +10 dust on city, +30% dust on city Great thing

Dust Depositry: +5 dust per worker Situacional but great.

Reaping Station: Unlock Blood Crystal, Grassilk, Moonleaf, Quicksilver and Titan Bones extractors Sure.

Imperial Coinage: Unlocks ressource section of the marketplace Never used it, but idea is good.

Fortified Caravans: +50% Trade Route bonus, 2 upkeep (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Uncommon Filigree: Unlocks tier I Adamantian and Palladian accessories As said.



Empire:

Central Market: +30 happiness on city, +10% food while fervent, +10% dust while fervent, 3 upkeep cool thing. However it is weird the jump from tier 1 sewers to next happiness building in tier 2. The result is that you can build army in tier 2 but can;t realy conquere much.

Aura of Empire: +5 influence on city, +3 influence per worker, 3 upkeep Great tech.

Bread and Circuses: -20% expansion dissaproval Great tech, also could be kicked to tier II. When we are supposed to do expansions?

National Museum: +2 influence on district, 3 upkeep Interesting tech.

Right of Way: Unlocks Roads (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Lookout Towers: +20% health regen on expansion, +5 vision on expansion Never using it.

Cargo Docks: Unlocks Ships for water travel (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Native District: +1 minor faction assimilation on empire Get it asap. :-)





Era IV



Military:

Brigade System: +20% defence on units Cool. Giving some reward for science focues strategy, could be more like this on higher tiers.

Signal Corps: +2 max army size, +2 max garrison size Good.

Economy of Scale: +15% unit production on city, 8 upkeep Do not understand how it is useful.

Army Manual: +60 starting XP for units, 5 upkeep Could be very good and useful.



Industry:

Production Line: +3 production per worker, 5 upkeep With right spec very useful.

Automated Production: +1 industry on tiles with industry yield, 5 upkeep Another spec tech. Not sure how compares to foundry. Like how many I you get from it? 10, 20?

Rare Material Foundry: Unlocks Mithrite and Hyperium extractors Sure why not. However Mithrite outclass all other weapons it seems. So what is the purpose of having 6 different? Also at some point i just can build dust weapons which are nice. But the dust price for them are very low. Also it would be ok if i have to research dust weapon.

Warehouse: Creates a 250 production stockpile I like stockpiles. But havent tested this one much.

Rare Alloys: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium weapons As said.

Rare Armor: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium armor As said.



Economy:

Refrigeration Plant: +6 food per worker, 5 upkeep Could be good.

Fertilizer Plant: +1 food on terrain with food, 5 upkeep How much im expected to get from it, in comparison to seed storage?

Advanced Harvester: Unlocks Dust Orchid, Dustwater, Hydromiel, Pixie Blood and Redsang extractors Sure.

Hospitality Den: Allows Alliance Treaties when at Cold War Diplomacy is not yet ready

Smokehouse: Creates a 250 food stockpile Could be useful. But havent used that much.

Rare Filigree: Unlocks tier I Mithrite and Hyperium accessories As said.

Way of the Woodlands: +50% defence for units in forests (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)



Empire:

Highway Agency: Speed bonus on roads (THIS TECH IS CURRENTLY NON-FUNCTIONAL)

Historical Society: Searched ruins can be searched a second time Not tested, but cool idea.



Tech 4 is not when main game is happing at present so it is hard to say anything.



Era V

Currently no techs available.



Era VI

Currently no techs available.



Summarize:



Generally most of the stuff is what would you expect. We have FIDS buffs, military techs, expansion techs, diplomacy, and fancy stuff (marketplace) techs. Overall it looks nice, and there will be more!

However i see two main problems with general techs:



FIDS flow - the tier I buildings cost 160d, 1 upkeep, give flat bonus and on top of that +30%! I would buy it in every city! In comparison some later buildings give bonuses only in %, or cost a lot, the result is that laiter one are skipable. I think that tier 1 buildings should give only flat value. Basicly it is something you build when you ended in bad location (similar to founders stone), or to represent "city center". % Should be separate buildings on tier II. There could be of course something combining flat, % and per person but on very high tiers.



Weapon improvment - Higher tiers special mineral weapons make obsolate lower level. Futhermore you get glassteel tier 3 from quest (hurts even more). And Mithrill is superior weapon. And i have no idea how you discouver dust weapons (again free?). And there is not much ways to buff crudle iron troops (it would be nice if you could do so to some degree).

There are two main goals:

1. Make all minerals useful at tier 6.

2. Make lower tier weapon tech somehow profit military players. (gonna grab them all.

Sidequest: Some better aproach to dust weapons (they demand very little dust), and maybe some buffs for crudle iron to research for those good with FIDS but short with minerals.

What could be done:

- Each technology research cost is discounted depending on how much of previous technologies in that quarter was researched (no linear formula).

- Each Weapon/Armour/Trinket technology gives 5% discount on refilling troops. (stacking!)

- And of course all minerals have all tiers.

Sidenote: Actually we could do just fine with just 3 tiers of gear.

I don't have enough experience to comment on the later-era techs at this point, so I'll just have a run on the second era:

Era II



Military:

Armorer's Guild: +15% unit production in city, 3 upkeep

Mercenary market: Unlocks the mercenaries section of the marketplace

Conscription Center: +40 starting XP for units, 2 upkeep

Tier II Unit: Unlocks the tier II units of each faction

Meritocratic Promotion: +2 max army size, +2 max garrison size

Armorer's Guild - bonus is small when considering the opportunity cost of tech, production and upkeep. SUGGESTION: Should give a bigger discount (25%?) and a discount to retrofitting units as well.

Merc Market - the units are so expensive that it's essentially pointless (at least right now, as the uniqueness of different units is lacking), I'll just spend my dust on buying my own units, thank you.

Conscription Center - Again, opportunity cost in terms of tech, production and upkeep has me skipping this every game (perhaps if we could determine how much XP is required for leveling up and how the XP is assigned after a battle I could make a better-informed decision here). SUGGESTION: Make it a passive bonus rather than a building?

Tier II Unit - Generally good, depends on faction. SUGGESTION: Make sure all tier2 units have at least a decent amount (~50+) of hit points to make them worthwhile.

Meritocratic Promotion - Essential, get it in the first 3-4 techs I get in Era II.

Industry:

Quarry: +1 production on forest tiles, 2 upkeep

Mining Rights: +30% production on city, 2 upkeep

Alchemical Alloys: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel weapons

Alchemical Armor: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel armor

Stockpile: Creates 250 a production stockpile

Quarry - Obviously situational, but generally good - it's been pretty rare to not have *any* cities in a forest.

Mining Rights - Good, but seems weak compared to tier I industry building. SUGGESTION: I'd like to see the % boost from the Tier I production building (Mill Foundry) removed - it would help make this seem less lackluster in comparison (and the Mill is simply too good - it's basically required in the first handful of techs).

Alchemical Alloys - I usually get this, unless I've gotten the Tier III tech from a quest. SUGGESTION: As noted in the thread about the Era I techs, I would like to see the production/resource cost for each tier doubled, so as to make each era's armor/alloys/filigree techs desirable and useful (or at a minimum, more of a strategic choice)

Alchemical Armor - see above

Stockpile - extremely useful, essential in many cases.

Economy:

Fish Farm: +2 food on river tiles, 2 upkeep

Forest Management: +3 food per worker, +5 food on city, 2 upkeep

Diplomat's Manse: Allows Peace Treaties when at Cold War

Still Houses: Creates 250 a food stockpile

Tailor's Guild: +1 accesory slot on units

Alchemical Filigree: Unlocks tier II Titanium and Glassteel accesories

Fish Farm - Situational, but generally good, potentially great. Could even lower it to +1 Food and not diminish it's usefulness.

Forest Management - Solid, usually pick this up. SUGGESTION: Switch names with Quarry for reasons of immersion - why should a quarry affect forest tiles? Why does Forest Management have nothing to do with forests?

Diplomat's Manse - This should be disabled as the AI does not ever accept peace in my experience. Withholding comment until AI is in such a place as to make this operational.

Still Houses - Good, usually get this

Tailor's Guild - Haven't seen the need for this yet, I usually have other priorities. Seems quite powerful, though.

Alchemical Filigree - See comment regarding Alchemical Alloys.

Empire:

Watchtower: Allows construction of watchtowers, +15% health regen on expansion, +3 vision on expansion

Watchtower - Solid pick, always grab it sooner or later. SUGGESTION: I would love to see more in-game documentation regarding watchtowers. Re: regen, how much the base is, how much being in owned region increases it, etc. Also, what exactly does "on expansion" mean? Is it the 3-range of sight the watchtower provides, or is it the whole region, or is it only on top of the tower? If the former two, do the towers affects stack if there is more than one?

Here's some thoughts on the Age 2 techs...



Overview



If Age 1 was the "Economy Age", Age 2 is the "Military Age". The Age 2 choices are not as clear (a good thing) and there are less must haves. A couple faction-specific techs land here as well so you may not actually be researching ten of these.



Note: I'm not going too far on faction-specific strategies. Obviously Broken Lords don't need Food so Food-related techs should be skipped.



Based on initial Alpha 0.4.2



Armorers Guild

15% unit cost reduction, 3 Dust upkeep



This is a good discount that you'll be using for the rest of the game but seems a little weak compared to the production boosts (that can be used for buildings and units) .



Mercenary Market

Unlocks the Mercenaries section of the Marketplace



I don't think buying units from the Marketplace is necessary in the game and the prices are currently pretty high. I've never felt the need to disband a unit yet so I doubt you'll be seeing your opponent's troops in here. You may need this to fulfill a "bring 2 units of a type you don't have" quest.



Conscription Center

40% XP Bonus on Unit Creation, 3 Dust upkeep



Currently, the level up stat bonuses are very modest (the difference between a level 5 and level 6 Ranger I looked at was +1 Attack, +1 Critical, +3 Hit Points and +1 Initiative). Every bit helps but I don't think getting to what amounts to an extra level is a big boost. On a side note, 40% of what?



Titan/Dust Bishop/Tenai Walker/Proliferator

Unit - Faction-specific



Since the combat system is still a work in progress, it's difficult to judge the units. The Tenai Walker and Titan are definitely nice tanks to defend your archers but can be replaced by minor faction units. The Proliferator's ability is not working yet. The Dust Bishop's ability is nice, but a little difficult to control at the moment.



Meritocratic Promotion

+2 units in armies and garrisons



One could argue that with the reinforcement system, you don't really need this. However, the hero bonuses added to a stack are pretty decent (will hopefully get better) and having a bigger city garrison is useful.



Quarry

+1 Industry on terrain with forest, 2 Dust upkeep



Maybe this should be called "Forest Management" . A modest Industry boost to cities in Forest areas but not as big as many of the other FIDSI boosters.



Mining Rights

+30% Industry on city, 2 Dust upkeep



A no-nonsense FIDSI booster, and Industry is useful for all factions. This one points out a trend in the FIDSI buildings. This building has a lesser effect than the Age 1 Mill Foundry (which give a +6 flat bonus in addition to the +30%). I'd like to see these buildings be a little different (ex. Flat bonus OR % bonus OR work-based bonus) or replace each other (Mill Foundry gives +30%, Mining Rights replaces Mill Foundry and gives +50% or so) so that the decision making is not so clear. Right now the Age I economy boosters are a non-brainer.



Alchemical Alloys

Tier 2 Glasteel/Titanium Weapons



If you skipped the alloys in Age 1 (which you should have), now is the time to jump in and upgrade your weapons and armor. You'll need to start the arms race as the skirmishes are going to get bigger and minor factions become pests. If for some reason you don't have Glassteel or Titanium in any of your regions, you can wait or just quit the game



Stockpile

Allows building of Industry stockpiles



The stockpiles upgrade the tried and true "Produce Gold" mechanics in 4X games that are there if you need another resource badly, there's nothing else to build in your city or you're winning and tired of choosing a building every turn. This one converts Industry to ... Industry. You can use this to boost production in a new city and is nice if you are going with wide empire mid-game.



Alchemical Armors

Tier 2 Glasteel/Titanium Armors



See Alchemical Alloys. I usually prioritize Armors over Alloys.



Watchtower

Allows building of Watchtowers



There's usually a bit of open space in regions so you'll want to build watchtowers to look out for sneaky armies. Don't get too excited due to the "foundation" mechanic. You can't build your towers wherever you like, instead you're stuck with randomly pre-determined locations on the map. There's usually one near where you want it but I'm not sure why the foundations exist...



Fish Farm

+2 Food per river tile, 2 Dust upkeep



Situational based on terrain. As there are some better (and cheaper to build) Age 1 Food techs, you'll likely have a nice fat population by the time you get around to building this.



Forest Management

+2 Food per worker, +5 Food on City, -2 Dust upkeep



If you were expecting a tech related to the number of forests you have you'll be disappointed. Hard to take full advantage of as you're going to be shifting workers from Food to other tasks in Age 2. This is probably the last Food building you'll want.



Diplomat's Manse

Allows Peace proposals at times of Cold War and Alliance



Diplomacy isn't working yet so this is difficult to evaluate. I'm looking forward to see the diplomacy system in action, especially in multiplayer. If peace is a condition that isn't easily broken (by the AI or another player in Multiplayer) this will be important. PS - Shouldn't this be an Empire & Expansion tech?



Still Houses

Allows building of Food stockpiles



Food stockpiles are a nice way to boost population in newly founded cities and you'll be able to take advantage of this mid game. Since this converts on resource to another, it's more valuable than Stockpile.



Tailor's Guild

+1 accessory slot on units



This is a nice to have on your Heroes, but not a necessity.



Alchemical Filigree

Items - Tier 2 Glassteel/Titanium Accessories



While the I still don't think that items are a "must have", but the bonuses (particulary the tomes for Governers) start to look nice here. Due to the lack other other "must haves" in Age 2, I think this is a good place to jump into the jeweler-making business and it also will give you something to do with your Titanium and Glassteel when you move into the stronger materials later.



Top 10

Recommended techs in age 2, roughly in research order (not importance) but circumstances may warrant priority changes. Bold indicates a must-have

• Alchemical Armors
• Alchemical Alloys
• Forest Management
• Mining Rights
• Armorers Guild
• Titan/Tenai Walker/Dust Bishop
• Alchemical Filigree
• Meritocratic Promotion
• Watchtower
• Still Houses
  
  

Situational

These may be useful to you and your strategy.

• Quarry
• Fish Farm
• Stockpile
• Tailors Guild
  
  

Pass On

These are not powerful, are highly situational or not fully implemented at this time, so pass.

• Proliferator
• Diplomatic Manse
• Conscription Center
• Mercenary Market
  
  

Propbuddha wrote:
I apologize I was typing up my notes and missed this thread.

I'll attempt merging the threads. We'll see how this works out, this time.



Well, it worked.

Seems to have worked fine and dandy.



I'll post my comment on the techs later, bit busy atm.

Propbuddha wrote:
I appreciate that, but I think it will be difficult to have a substantive discussion of 100+ techs on one thread...

Might be best to it Era-by-Era first, then compare between the different Eras when it is done.



I also feel that the general tech path/progression could use some additional dev input/info. For example, what are the different Eras supposed to represent? What sort of feeling should they inspire in the player?

As it is, it seems like Era I is just the "awakening" of your race. Era II seems to indicate first expansion attempts to fortify your position on the planet, but without much administration or centralization. Era III seems to be some sort of "Imperial" epoche, with a stronger, centralized government, crowded cities and scientific progress (has a sort of an Imperial Rome feel to it). Era IV seems to be a direct jump into Industrialization, so the game forgoes the european "dark age" and "medieval" themes in favor of a setting where the strong Empires of Era III never collapse, but rather compete against each other (has sort of an interesting "what-if Rome had never fallen apart?" history twist to it).



I think the general effets of the techs should be in line of the story-related progression the devs have planned. As it is, it seems that the techs in era I are a bit too powerful (they fail to create an early struggle with the enviroment and winter effects).



Era II feels about right, but could maybe use some balance related tweaks (happiness, maybe a weak science building, one era III influence building moved here).



Era III feels decent overall. Rather weak in economic progress, but good in science and empire/expansion.



Era IV is hard to judge atm. I think it should be more about evening out the impact of terrain, so maybe it would be better to have techs that give +1 F/I/D/S on terrain WITHOUT them (e.g. fertilizer plant -> you can now utilize barren landscapes more easily), allowing your empire to spread into previously inhospitable areas of the map. But then again, that could also be a Era V theme.



But again, more on the techs themselve later...

Propbuddha wrote:
I appreciate that, but I think it will be difficult to have a substantive discussion of 100+ techs on one thread...

I agree that it will be difficult. On the other hand, the amount of information that the devs need to go through (and very likely always the dev(s) involved in techtree-design) will not be reduced by splitting the thread in one further thread per age.

Weapons

Armor

Watch Tower

Promotion

Mining Rights

Tailor Guild



Are really the 6 needed T2 techs that I feel you should be grabbing every game without good reason.



In Era 3 I want to point out that Palladian armor is pretty much the best thing for ranged units. Era 3 overall is the big expansion tier between the +30 morale building -20% expansion disapproval and roads/naval.....once they are implemented.

Propbuddha wrote:
Well the devs aren't the only audience here, no Are we supposed to restrict all research discussion to this thread?

How about this:

All lists of >= age 2-techs with annotations should end up here.

For each age, I'd propose one more thread for a specialised discussion on that age and its technologies, but no big "this is the final summary of all my thoughts on... well... everything!"-lists like in this thread?

Well, maybe SpaceTroll can just tell us how he would like it best. =)

Whatever works for everyone, don't mean to hijack this thread. We have the blog for personal opinions...

I'm sure we are all familiar with the hamlet argument going on right now. I for one would like it, but why not combine it with another idea about foundations?



Someone mentioned making foundations a unique resource. As you tech up, you unlock different buildings for them. Watchtowers is one, another could be a mill/granary/etc something to produce fids that harvests a nearyby tile(s) and other could be a fort or something. I feel like the fort would need to offer some other bonuses though besides def. However, for this to really work, I think we would need to be able to determine where the foundations go. Otherwise, due to RNG, they may all become watchtowers simply because they didn't spawn next to decent fids tiles or they didn't spawn in a chokepoint for a fort. This way, people who want to "exploit" the terrain have more options, while it still keeps the amount low to prevent civ style working every tile and keeps strategy interesting. Perhaps you have 1 foundation base with +1per city/district level? Maybe even a tech or 2 that increases the amount of foundations you can have with a maximum of 3 or something? I think this would would wonderfully well but what do you all think?



It creates an interesting choice for players. Vision/regen? Def? Econ? Other options maybe? It also lets people use parts of the region they really want to use without bringing back city spam. We could even add foundations have to be X(maybe 5?) hexes apart to keep the region spread out. This also adds some techs to the web which is always welcome. More meaningful choices are never discouraged

This is not an attempt to disagree with any of the OPs detailed points. I like most of them.



There is something else I would like to see as we progress through the eras. Many 4x games suffer from the situation where by late game everyone has more or less researched everything. The individual choices were not important, only the order in which you did them and how quickly.



What if 10 were not only the minimum number needed to progress to the next era, but also the maximum that you could take from an era? If the rest got locked once you picked number 10, it would certainly make the decision on numbers 9 and 10 from an era seem more important. It would also create situations where some players had things the others did not.

Very nice analysis.



@Dalwin : that would be too much of penalty I think. With the increasing tech price system, you're not that tempted to get all previous eras tech in a fast sweep anyway. As for reaching the all known state, well ideally that would happen way after things have been decided in most games.



After a few mid-late tech games, here's my thought in a nutshell



. Tech 2 expansion is really lacking. I appreciate all the tools available in T3, but somehow, maybe some approbal/influence tech could be moved into T2.

. It's not the sole thread talking about that, but FIDS improvement in T1 are powerful. And T2 onward are more specialized. I don't mind that on itself but some of them may feel a bit lackluster. Why I don't mind it is because it's not that an issue that every city got the basics T1 buildings. You don't exactly want cities to start as slow your first one later on. That there is a declining return on investment on later techs makes them fit for a specific strategy.

. I appreciate the river tied techs, they are the main source of city differentiation. Forest based tech for food/dust should be available. And maybe techs about a different terrain feature (rock? desert? ) Make the upkeep high enough you'd want to think twice about building an improvement that works on 1-2 tiles

. After 23h, I'm afraid of a lack of diversity in the strategies I can deploy. Sure I have to pick either economy or military, but military techs themselves are quite not specialized. Army size/materials are a given.

. There is no improvement for industry per population till tech 4. Such improvements exist for dust/food/science/influence from T2 onward. At some points some large cities may be stalled if the terrain is not fit for industry. It may be the aim, though.





It's hard to really get the sense of what will be sacrificed when missing/immature features gets into motion. You may really want to have those market tech, or siege/fortification techs for instance.

As for later materials being better overall I regret it a bit, but remember if the Ai was able to put pressure once T3 reached, you would notbe able to refit all your units with T3/T4 materials right away. T3 glassteeel/titanium can be a nice fallback then.

Dalwin wrote:
This is not an attempt to disagree with any of the OPs detailed points. I like most of them.



There is something else I would like to see as we progress through the eras. Many 4x games suffer from the situation where by late game everyone has more or less researched everything. The individual choices were not important, only the order in which you did them and how quickly.



What if 10 were not only the minimum number needed to progress to the next era, but also the maximum that you could take from an era? If the rest got locked once you picked number 10, it would certainly make the decision on numbers 9 and 10 from an era seem more important. It would also create situations where some players had things the others did not.

I think this would be fairly interesting actually. There's certainly much more of a risk-reward kind of thing that you have to take into account when researching things that the current system doesn't really have at the moment. Provided there are enough interesting options available, there could be some fairly unique kinds of strategy you might not see otherwise.