I would really like the Empire Plan mechanic to be more meaningful with longer-lasting consequences. As of now, it's a small decision made every 20 turns (which feels arbitrary, but I'll leave that alone for now) which, although it has some tough decision-making at times, is generally pretty straightforward depending on the faction and period of the game.



What I would humbly suggest is to have an "Empire Shape" (maybe someone will think of a better term?) that is driven by both Empire Plan choices and by concrete actions in the game.



The Empire Shape would be similar in appearance to the current Empire Plan; each axis (military, industry/science, economy/population, empire/expansion) would be "leveled up" over time, giving meaningful, permanent bonuses in that area of the game. Repeated investment into one axis of the Empire Plan would lead a faction deeper and deeper into a certain Shape, giving discounts into reinvesting into that axis. Investing in the Military branch of the Empire plan many times would create a more and more militaristic faction, so it would be difficult to retool an entire culture/empire into a peaceful expansionist faction. I could envision city graphics changing as well as a faction goes deep enough into a given area.



Not only would Empire Plan choices affect the Shape, it would also be affected by actions in the "real" world. Do you bribe minor factions a lot, or subjugate them? Do you use the market a lot? Do you boost production or rely on buyouts? What FIDSI are most of your workers employed in? Tech might have an impact as well: 1) a weighted system of tech-order that would grant more push into a certain Shape with the first techs chosen in an Era and significantly less push with techs chosen later, and/or 2) techs are discounted if a faction is heavily invested into one axis.

I actually like the Empire Plan system. The interface is a little wonky (somebody REALLY liked that interface at Amplitude, enough to even put a simulator in there) and the choices may not be balanced, but overall the concept is interesting. I like the fact that you choose a focus and your choice is something you have to live with for a significant length of time.



Could your feelings perhaps be a numbers issue? You are raking in so much FIDSI from your "normal" city production, that the Empire Plan doesn't make a big impact? I agree a lot of this feels like I'm managing a spreadsheet at times.



I'm not keen on the idea of permanent bonuses. Influence is the currency for these bonuses and I could easily cheat the system buy boosting Influence and buying bonuses early, then shifting over to other items.

Propbuddha wrote:
I actually like the Empire Plan system. The interface is a little wonky (somebody REALLY liked that interface at Amplitude, enough to even put a simulator in there) and the choices may not be balances, but overall the concept is sound.

Sure, it's OK, it's just 1) boring and 2) lacks consequence. It's boring because the bonuses remain essentially the same for the duration of the game, it's something you think about once every 20 turns more or less, and there is no dynamicism (actions in game don't have any effect on EP aside from focusing your workers on Influence). Lacking consequence is obvious, aside from whatever snowball effect you can get from early decisions. I don't mean to be overly harsh, I'd just like to expand the mechanic to actually be more fun to interact with.

Could your feelings perhaps be a numbers issue? You are raking in so much FIDSI from your "normal" city production, that the Empire Plan doesn't make a big impact? I agree a lot of this feels like I'm managing a spreadsheet at times.

Certainly possible, but I don't think that detracts from the critique I just outlined above. I've been posting many fewer suggestions recently because of this question, actually - I am very eager for a couple of balancing patches, though they probably won't emerge until all the gameplay systems are introduced.

I'm not keen on the idea of permanent bonuses. Influence is the currency for these bonuses and I could easily cheat the system buy boosting Influence and buying bonuses early, then shifting over to other items.

Well that's where balancing would come in. I was inspired a bit by Civ:BE's Affinity system, which is kind of like an emergent Civ 5 Social Policy system.



EL could only benefit in terms of gameplay and immersion by increasing the depth of overall empire management, regardless of my suggestion above. Give us a Civics system, a Social Policy system, a Social Engineering system, anything would be welcome here in my eyes. Perhaps change the Empire Plan bonuses for each Era, or introduce multiple Plans that would give us more options.



Like I said, I agree the system is sound, it's just not as good as it could be imo.

Another thought (not directly aimed at your idea) is that the economy system in EL is already pretty complex. We've got the "typical" stuff (terrain harvesting, buildings) + worker management + Luxury booster management + Empire plan + governors with skills + Marketplace + Minor Faction bonuses + questing for resources + leveling up city districts + the to-be-implemented trade routes. Does anything really need more depth/complexity?



At times it feels like each individual system feels unsatisfying, simply because there are so many of them...

Empire plan is not that bad. I view it as second wind for small empires, so big ones will not steamroll rest of map after 1st enemy. Smaller empire = more empire plan, more effective empire.



Im ok with swinging empire plan each 20 turns, however the numbers could be tweaked, or make it more elastic. Also im not sure what have in common population and science. So some of ministry bonus choices could be look at again. Maybe there could be like 8 axis, each one very specific. (science, military, production, trade and dust, exploration, exansion, population). It is not like for example USA are in war-mode all the time.



The pernament empire bonus is already here in form of technologies. The problem is that there is just few technologies, and few of them are not connected to new building. Also some of them feel like very obligatory, while others at least now are pointless (poor balance).

lynxlynx wrote:


Maybe there could be like 8 axis, each one very specific. (science, military, production, trade and dust, exploration, exansion, population).

This could work but we'd need diplomacy first, because it would to be able to specialize in science and say trade but in the current build that's not really possible.

I think that the empire plan will be better when the axis are "exclusionary" (don't knoe how to discribe this, sry, my english isn't the best).

Like this: You can be an aggresive empire, (+war Bonus), but that excludes to be an diplomatic empire (+Relations/trade boni).

I like the basic concept of the Empire Plan mechanic, but I do agree that the decisions to be made there can feel rather boring or inconsequential.

In order to solve that issue, I think several issues need to be addressed.



1. Make the Empire Plan options more interesting than a simple FIDSI or damage bonus. They should provide interesting, unique effects that may even provide unexpected interactions. For example, taking inspiration from the Civics in Civilization 4, the Empire Plan could offer the ability to sacrifice population when buying out, or let garrisoned units provide approval bonuses.

2. If they don't offer special abilities, the numbers need to create a tough choice. Perhaps the bonus to Science comes with a penalty to Dust, or the buyout bonus penalizes Industry, keeping them from being automatic picks if you have the influence to spare. Right now, the only reason not to take as many plans as you can, even if you don't immediately need them, is if you're saving up to assimilate another minor faction.

3. The 20 turn timer really does feel arbitrary. I think the Empire Plan would work better if it had to be maintained with a steady Influence income, e.g. 1 point per city per level, which would also prevent picking an expensive plan and then grabbing two more cities the turn after. However, there would need to be some kind of penalty for changing the plan, perhaps rebel armies spawning in your territory if you make drastic changes.







As far as creating "meaningful, permanent bonuses" and a sense of shaping an empire and a culture over time are concerned, SpaceTroll had this to say on the topic of world wonders in another thread:

SpaceTroll wrote:
Do not loose faith yet on Wonders, one day we'll have them, I am just not sure we'll have them for the game's final release. The only thing that we would want to expand on is that wonders should not be only about constructions. We are seeing wonders as ways to rewards different play styles, and encourage "historical" achievements, each era having their own set of wonders, for instance in era 2 the first player who has a city with 10 populations creates a magnificent wonders that will give him a population growth nationwide limited or not in time (depending on the wonder...).



Cheers



ST

This type of achievement-based wonder would nicely fill the role of "leveling up" different aspects of an empire, I think.

The current empire plan SYSTEM is ok, its just the current choices that need work.



There are several options that are essentially useless (eg +2 science/district in winter), while others are great. Compound this with the fact that the placement of some bonuses doesn't make sense (I think + dust/pop is in the military tree?), and that fids inflation allows you to grab earlier era empire plans with your huge prestige growth, and the choices really are very limited.

lynxlynx wrote:
8 axis, each one very specific.

Seek wrote:


Repeated investment into one axis of the Empire Plan would lead a faction deeper and deeper into a certain Shape, giving discounts into reinvesting into that axis.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


1. They should provide interesting, unique effects that may even provide unexpected interactions. For example, taking inspiration from the Civics in Civilization 4, the Empire Plan could offer the ability to sacrifice population when buying out, or let garrisoned units provide approval bonuses.

And it would be perfect !

I agree with the diagnostic and the solutions. Empire plan is with the technology pools the one factor that made think the empire management lacked "narrative" (and possibility of reinvention)

The Empire plan needs 8 branches, not 4. Each branch needs to be focused on a single thing; like Military, Dust, Science, Food, Industry, Luxuries?, Maintenance, Population?, etc

Yea the current choices do not make sense. They are not balanced at all. And more branches would help to diversify it a lot.

Propbuddha wrote:
Another thought (not directly aimed at your idea) is that the economy system in EL is already pretty complex. We've got the "typical" stuff (terrain harvesting, buildings) + worker management + Luxury booster management + Empire plan + governors with skills + Marketplace + Minor Faction bonuses + questing for resources + leveling up city districts + the to-be-implemented trade routes. Does anything really need more depth/complexity?



At times it feels like each individual system feels unsatisfying, simply because there are so many of them...

This is an excellent point. I think that some of these systems should be simplified/streamlined (and have argued so in the past, particularly wrt luxuries and number of different tile types). The key difference is that EP is the only one that deals with the philosophy/government/social aspects of the game, and those aspects are very high up on my list of Most Fun Things That 4X Games Provide - good 4X games are not just about military and economy (and diplomacy, once that's added), they're about leading a culture and a government as well.

LordVladec wrote:
I think that the empire plan will be better when the axis are "exclusionary" (don't knoe how to discribe this, sry, my english isn't the best).

Like this: You can be an aggresive empire, (+war Bonus), but that excludes to be an diplomatic empire (+Relations/trade boni).

Something along these lines could work, for sure.

(I think the word you're looking for is "exclusive".)

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I like the basic concept of the Empire Plan mechanic, but I do agree that the decisions to be made there can feel rather boring or inconsequential.

In order to solve that issue, I think several issues need to be addressed.



1. Make the Empire Plan options more interesting than a simple FIDSI or damage bonus. They should provide interesting, unique effects that may even provide unexpected interactions. For example, taking inspiration from the Civics in Civilization 4, the Empire Plan could offer the ability to sacrifice population when buying out, or let garrisoned units provide approval bonuses.

2. If they don't offer special abilities, the numbers need to create a tough choice. Perhaps the bonus to Science comes with a penalty to Dust, or the buyout bonus penalizes Industry, keeping them from being automatic picks if you have the influence to spare. Right now, the only reason not to take as many plans as you can, even if you don't immediately need them, is if you're saving up to assimilate another minor faction.

3. The 20 turn timer really does feel arbitrary. I think the Empire Plan would work better if it had to be maintained with a steady Influence income, e.g. 1 point per city per level, which would also prevent picking an expensive plan and then grabbing two more cities the turn after. However, there would need to be some kind of penalty for changing the plan, perhaps rebel armies spawning in your territory if you make drastic changes.

Agree with all of this, particularly #3 - Influence should become a more interesting and critical resource, imo.

As far as creating "meaningful, permanent bonuses" and a sense of shaping an empire and a culture over time are concerned, SpaceTroll had this to say on the topic of world wonders in another thread:



This type of achievement-based wonder would nicely fill the role of "leveling up" different aspects of an empire, I think.

Agreed, Wonders will be an excellent addition to the game, though they don't have the same "empire-management" feeling I am missing in EL.