Well, hello everybody.



I have been playing Endless Legend for a couple of days now and I feel like I am ready to talk about my first impressions and thoughts about the game in it's current state. I am fully aware it is a work in progress and that is actually the reason I am most inclined to talk about a few issues and ideas.

I have not been with the game long, only a couple of days, as I previously stated - but already I am noticing a few things which majorly influence gameplay in a negative manner - things I would like to see changed or at least considered for change.

I expect very many things out of this game, but failing to perform is definitely NOT one of them.



Endless Space was a big success among me and some of my friends, who play 4X games only quite casually.

The game was quite immersive and while it had some minor issues in the end I consider it one of the best 4X games I have played. EVER.

That is definitely one of the reasons I would like to contribute some ideas of mine to the next success.

And that's saying something - I've been playing them all my life, since I was able to comprehend CIV I.



I have also been skimming (!!) through this forum for useful information and ideas but the active threads I saw yielded regretfully only little to moderate interest on my part - be it for whatever reason.

The one exception so far has been this one: [HTML]https://www.games2gether.com/endless-legend/forum/5-general/thread/1154-a-warning-to-amplitude-from-4x-nerd-and-games-media-hack felt like that thread contained quite a lot of useful "stuff". I am not going to discuss it in this thread though for quite obvious reasons. The thread is THERE and it is not this one.

I also expect a few more hero classes, a few more heroes, a few more unit classes, a few more races and a few more this and that.

It will arrive in time, I'm sure and I'm sure it will be good.

The reason I mention this is because I will not discuss upcoming features in this post.



This is my first time in this forum, I just hope that does not discourage or demotivate anybody in regards to reading what I'm writing.



[TL;DR]: Wall of text incoming, hopefully useful. (also, hopefully there's no character limit)





Disclaimer: This is a discussion, not a suggestion thread, coming up with new ideas, then maybe turning those ideas into a suggestion. I will not only talk about the negative things I have noticed, but also about positive influences I have made notice of. Keep in mind everything I write in this post is my personal opinion, it is not a fact. It is also not a rant about things in their current state; this article will be read probably quite a few hours after I started the first sentence, meaning everything I wrote here is rather carefully considered.









1. Battle System



First I thought I'd lead with (in my opinion) a very positive aspect of the game, which is the battle system in it's current state.

I was quite surprised at how uncertain the battles turned out to be, which is partially due to the initial units at your disposal (also the units available to you by race in the midgame) and partially due to the uncertainty of the movement of the AI even in manual battles.

Normally, I am not a big fan of uncertainty and prefer turn-based combat but I also welcome new ideas and systems.



There is only one thing which I cannot repeat often enough in 4X games - preparation, preparation, preparation.

Even more so in Endless Legend in it's current state - I cannot even emphasize how important preparation is for the battles, exactly because of the uncertainty of some of the battles you face. While admitting I faced quite the terrible losses whilst first playing the game, it all picked up after I went back to the roots - preparation.



Many players of this genre are not big fans of uncertainty but somehow it works in this case. I get it. You want to outskill your opponent, maybe outsmarting them in the battle itself. Maybe abusing a skill or two. But that should not be the point.

Every one thing you do leads up to the battles at hand and you might feel overwhelmed with what you are thrown at. I'm telling you, it's all a matter of preparation.

Maybe there will? could? should? be a few changes to please the majority. Doesn't change the fact the system could in fact work quite well this way.









2./3. The Starting Uncertainty / Resource Relevance



Good games, bad games.

Many have depended on your starting position right?



So far I've felt like some of the starting stuff (read: position) was alright, some was reaaally bad.

Hell, I've even had games where I felt like my starting position left me with nothing unless I scouted around first and then placed my first city on ~turn 5 to 10.

I've also had games where my 2nd or 3rd city picked off way quicker than my home city due to several natural resources being really really close to each other.

(e.g. steel stalks, earth tower, +1 more)



There was games where I was left wondering what to do when the first (uncertain) decent city spot on Wildwalkers was 2 or 3 turns away.

I just wish there was better "distribution" among a few of those games where it felt like my city was overrun by an AI on turn 40 due to me having not enough science, production ... Anything for that matter. Because every single one of the early turns is, I guess, far more important than most people realize.

It feels like you can make up for anything with construction a slight bit later on and that is why number 3, Resource Relevance, is included in this part.



While current game mechanics dictate dust is a lot more relevant than in the previous title Endless Space, especially to the Broken Knights - the science tree currently does not allow you to progress quick enough (nor do tiles for that matter) in science in order to make it a relevant resource. You will always get some science as long as your city has a few science buildings. You can also compensate for food with a bit of production and citizens (and/or dust).

You can compensate too much.

On the other hand, science is basically useless without a decent industry, which is kind of weird.



Specialization is needed among cities, maybe possibilities to trade food to your own cities, etc. while removing some terrain benefits/disadvantages.

A city placed in an unfortunate spot should not be allowed to prosper without anything - anything being the location - having it's back.

Balanced cities should exist, so should specialized ones.

Technically, to make it optimal you should be able to survive a decent while off of one city with science, industry and food, one third each.

This is hardly ever possible due to the starting terrain.

Of course you will need the dust but to make my point, it need not be included.



This brings me back to the original point of number 2, The Starting Uncertainty. It seems like the only city spot which REALLY matters, placing-wise, is the first.

After that you can compensate with dust, citizens placed in the correct spots and with a few technologies to help you along.

But quite literally buying city development from 1-3 and from 0 buildings to 5 THIS cheaply... That should not be possible.



That should really not be the case.











4. Science / Research Tree



LOVE the research tree, absolutely love it.

I love it so much I'd call it a very good one.



But unfortunately loves comes with unfortunate surprises, not just with the good stuff.

Tier 1, good stuff.

Tier 2, issues.

Tier 3, mostly good stuff.

Tier 4, issues.



Some might agree, some might disagree. (I hope disagree is the majority since some of it is flawed)

You're probably thinking: EXPLAIN PLEASE.

Oh yes, I will.



While tier 1 and 3 look pretty damn mighty to me every time I look at them, there is one major issue I always found myself fascinated about.

It is not about the particular buildings themselves, I think they mostly work quite well.

Upkeep costs on the buildings vs the buildings which generate dust.

Everything runs on dust, if you consider things; cities run on dust; heroes run on dust; even units run on dust.



Notice I put tier 1 and tier 3 among the mighty because they actually have buildings that generate more dust.

Basically the tiers 2 and 4 out of the research tree's researchable buildings only suck up money.

So I feel like development is stunted in the 2nd era and picks off again after you've suffered through it and reach the 3rd era.

But sorry, no relief, in the 4th era you're gonna suffer again.





Which leads me to the next question, is this actually intended, or is it just there?

Is it meant to limit your cities beyond a certain point, or is it just there?

Are the future number 5 and 6 also intended to make you suffer and be relieved afterwards only to suffer again?



Myself, I have no idea whether this is an issue of balance (as of now) or restricting players to ascertaining their cities specialize in the end.

That is why I end this part with that open question.









5. Minor Factions and (Starting) Units/Heroes



Bi ... oh I mean: Balance please.

Both the minor factions' units and the starting units seem utterly imbalanced compared to each other.

I'm really not gonna go into specifics because there's too many, but I always come out ahead when I go Wildwalkers. No losses on the initial fights.

Taking a look at the vaulters for example: you're gonna lose some marines, brah.

It's the same with the heroes, really, the melee heroes are always gonna get wrecked because of range/non-range. Many melee heroes of mine in the games I've played have gone critical by round 6-8 whereas the ranged Hero just rolls on like nothing happened most of the time.



Moving on. About the units:

That could also be a matter of resource availability/distribution/need - if you've got (semi-)melee units at the start maybe you get one or two more and receive a reduction on unit creation cost for the first 15 to 25 turns, just an idea.

On another note, I think terrain sometimes hinders initial melee units too much, maybe your arsenal of starter units should be expanded to 1 melee, 1 ranged at least and you should have one of each at the beginning of the game, unless you have a "special thing" going on, which should allow for more units at the beginning.

This "rule" should also alleviate some of the pressure on melee heroes early game, unless you give them better armor, which would result in the melee heroes to be broken. It is a debate.



I'm gonna break one rule of mine and talk about units in future patches - how many are we expecting by now?

There definitely should be more and the current unit types and/or hero types just don't cover it.

It is another open question.



I'm not going to dignify that with a response though (yet).







That's all, folks!



Well after I've spent the last three hours writing this, thinking about all the things I considered, I sure hope somebody reads it properly and also judges and responds properly.

Sorry I took up some of your time if you didn't find any relevance in this.



Also:

inb4: You've only played Wildwalkers so far! ----- Not true, I've played all pretty much equally except the Necrophages. It just seems I mention Wildwalkers the most because I consider them the strongest by far in the current version.



Cheers, RR.

I may add more feedback later, but a few quick things that occured to me while reading:



You can transfer resources between cities--production, food--through stockpiles. Admittedly, this requires researching the appropriate tech, which isn't in the first era when your cities are getting started.



Which leads to the second thing your post made me think of: the game is in Alpha and isn't balanced yet. The devs know it isn't balanced yet; Dust production doesn't scale well, building prices and maintenance costs are wonky, and techs arenn't necessarily where they will be in production. Units are semi-balanced, but the AI that builds mobs of a single unit type is not, and just correcting their unit composition should drastically improve unit balancing. This won't affect minor factions that can only build one unit, but it's relatively rare for the minor factions to get large armies, and even 2-3 Ended (ghosts) can be dealt with by a balanced, six-unit player army with only a unit or two lost. And that's just how it is today; the devs know more and better balancing is needed and it will come.

Well, thats quite a big (awesome) thought you wrote here !



On your first point, I have to say I disagree.

Ok, the system is original and I like it but, I cant get what you are talking about preparation.



There are nothing to prepare, the battlefield is too small, you only send your units to the death in the hope your ennemies will die before all your units.



On the 2nd and 3rd point, I agree, totallly ! But as Pawn said, its an Alpha Release and It will be fixed ^^



I did not examinated the research tree like you, so I cant say if you are right or wrong on that point.



And about the 5th point, we all agree on this : Ranged units are quite op againt melee units in most of the cases.



Also, about units, I also found there are too few units, I asked why and dev answered me that they prefer working on more customization on those units than creating new ones. (Im a bit disapointed cause the "customization" do not include visual changes on armors atm )

Ranged Units are quasi Op, it depends on the terrain the fight is happening on, Most of the time Ranged units fold like Superman on laundry day, its just an issue of getting to them first, a lot of the Tank units from the Minor Factions, (Ulcers, Silics and the Kazanji i'm looking at you) only move 1 hex per turn and rarely ever get into the fight were you need them to be, unless you got infantry vs infantry and those units are nose to nose. Meanwhile those Dawn Officers(vaulters) and Drones(necros) can cross the battlefield in one turn, Im sure this is one of those balancing things they will adjust later.

Yes, the ranged units absolutely decimate in this game in 99% of circumstances. When I play Vaulters, I don't bother with Titans or Dawn Officers, because a set of Marines with high Initiative and Attack can end the fight without taking a single point of damage. They do need some balancing, to be sure.



The Minor Factions are balanced in the sense that they're all overpowered, which I like. Yes, Daemon might be pretty powerful fighters, but their Empire bonus sucks. The opposite is true of other Factions. Some Factions provide a bit of both. Others are good support units. Point being, I like the Minor Factions as is, I don't think they need too much alteration.



I don't have any issue with the Tech tree so far, beyond a bit of frustration at the speed difference with the game. Yes, Tier II and IV don't provide Dust bonuses, but so long as you manage your economy intelligently it's a non-issue. If it offers Quarry and you notice you're rather Dust-starved, you either have way too many units, you're blowing Dust on everything you see or you're just generally mishandling your buying decisions.



The starting location problem is MASSIVE. You nailed perhaps the single greatest issue in the game so far. Bad location? You have two awful options: Run to somewhere else (Praying to god you don't encounter a random enemy who can wipe your Settler), but that sets you back half a dozen turns, which means you're constantly trying to play catch up on EVERY front (Scientifically, population wise, quest wise, economically). Your other option is to bite the bullet and settle in a poor location. With the way the District Expansion is set up at the moment though, this generally means you're screwed for the first half of the game (And that's if you ever catch back up). Easiest solution in my eyes is to make the District Expansion actually viable. Would allow poor starts to spread outwards and simply grab better tiles without screwing the player for doing so.



Agreed 100% about the battle system. I have other 4X games to scratch the "Spell spam" itch, I prefer the preparation and timing of the current system more. It's not a problem, it's unique, and I love it.