I'm a big fan of the Empire Plan concept but I think there are a few issues with the current implementation:



Things to Love

• Influence as currency with multiple uses - Diplomacy or Empire Bonuses?
• Making an advance decision that I have to live with over a significant number of turns
• Pricing scales with empire size
• Focusing on one area for more benefit
  
  

Things not to Love

• I have to get Level 1 bonus I don't want to get Level 2 bonus I do
• Bonuses sometimes feel out of place
• Every faction gets the same stuff
• Wonky interface (I know someone there at AMPLITUDE loves this, enough to build a simulator)
• Choices all have the same cost but benefits aren't equal
• Some techs grant similar (or better) empire-wide bonuses (ex. Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers and Bread & Circuses) reducing the importance of empire plan
  
  

Suggestion



Here's a concept for the Empire Plan that addresses some of the above issues:







Displayed options are just suggestions and placeholders



How it works:

• Empire plan is still selected every 20 turns
• INF cost still scales based on # of regions controlled
• Players can choose their bonuses from anything that is unlocked with no requirement to choose items they don't want
• Base cost may vary based on benefit
• Choosing more options in one area reduces the cost of all items in that area, encouraging specialization
• Some common options are unlocked by entering an age
• Some options are unlocked via techs
• One faction-specific option in each area
• Activated options are highlighted (behaves a lot like the Research screen)
  
  

Thanks for your attention, feedback is welcome!

I agree with a lot of what you brought up, though I'm torn on two issues:



1. Having to live with our decisions is certainly an important gameplay factor. However, the 20 turn timer feels like a completely arbitrary number, and is far too predictable. I can often just stock up on Influence just before/after picking an Empire plan to be ready for it, then put all population back to their ordinary jobs. (Though I do admit I only play against AI so far.) Personally, I am in favor of a system that requires constant upkeep, can be changed any time, but imposes some consequences for a period of time after changing it (as cultural revolution does not happen over night.)

2. Having to get a lower-level benefit to get a high-level one may be regarded as a price you have to pay for the powerful bonuses. However, a system like you suggest would enable Empire Plan choices that are not purely positive (as you could bypass them if you didn't want to deal with the penalty) and allow shaping our empires to our whims and play a certain type of faction. And saying that just gave me the horrible image of a Necrophage version of Brave New World. "Everyone belongs to everyone else. Who's for dinner tonight?"



Faction-specific Empire Plan options would certainly be welcome in fleshing out the factions (which is very important, in my opinion). The options should definitely provide more interesting and unique benefits that simple stat boost. For example:

• Garrisoned military units provide +2 approval per level each.
• Units (or Militia) can be drafted by paying population.
• Population can be sacrificed to buy out constructions
• Capturing an enemy city reduces its population by half, but gives you a massive Dust or Influence windfall
• Trade Routes produce Food/Industry/Influence/Approval
• No foreign Trade Routes, but internal Trade Routes produce 50% more Dust and Science
• Expansion Disapproval is eliminated, but Population creates a massive disapproval hit
• Lose all benefits from minor factions, but receive a boost to your cities and units in return
  
  

In fact, Dust Buyout itself could be unlocked via Empire Plan as well.

I also like this suggestion.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


However, the 20 turn timer feels like a completely arbitrary number, and is far too predictable. I can often just stock up on Influence just before/after picking an Empire plan to be ready for it, then put all population back to their ordinary jobs.

I agree that 20 turns feels too predictable with the current INF numbers.

Is this predictability a problem? I don't know. That's probably a matter of opinion.

This problem may disappear once diplomacy is more implemented and INF's value increases.

It is also (too?) easy to predict how much INF you will need to get X bonus and how many pop to move for how long to reach it.

However, you cannot simply have the Empire Plan occur pseudo-randomly like winter.

OTW spending INF on an Empire Plan becomes too much of a "I hope this bonus lasts X turns" gamble.

Unless that gamble makes for interesting play....

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


Personally, I am in favor of a system that requires constant upkeep, can be changed any time, but imposes some consequences for a period of time after changing it (as cultural revolution does not happen over night.)

This could work, but how would you balance the bonuses an Empire Plan grants you?

(X bonus * 20 turns = Y INF) seems easier to balance than (X bonus = Y INF per turn + Z consequence).

Is Z the same for every plan option? Does it scale/change over time? Scaling based on era/how many options you are using/# of territories?

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


2. Having to get a lower-level benefit to get a high-level one may be regarded as a price you have to pay for the powerful bonuses. However, a system like you suggest would enable Empire Plan choices that are not purely positive

As long as each Empire Plan option had an INF cost balanced with the benefit it granted this may not be an issue.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


The options should definitely provide more interesting and unique benefits that simple stat boost.

Agree. Bonuses other than raw stat boosts would make for some interesting choices and gameplay.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


In fact, Dust Buyout itself could be unlocked via Empire Plan as well.

I would like to see Advanced Dust Buyout unlocked somewhere i.e. anyone can buyout era 1 buildings and their basic military unit,

but to buyout more advanced buildings or units they must pay some opportunity cost.

The Empire Plan could be an appropriate place for that sunk cost.

BadgerTemplar wrote:
This could work, but how would you balance the bonuses an Empire Plan grants you?

(X bonus * 20 turns = Y INF) seems easier to balance than (X bonus = Y INF per turn + Z consequence).

Is Z the same for every plan option? Does it scale/change over time? Scaling based on era/how many options you are using/# of territories?

That is really the main issue with creating an upkeep based system. If we don't want the Empire Plans to be constantly in flux, there needs to be some way to fix it. This could be something as simple as "After you select an option, you can not deselect it for 10 turns. If you run out of influence, your Empire will take a massive approval hit" to something as complicated as "The longer you run a specific empire plan, the more entrenched it becomes in the culture of your people. If you change it, they go into rebellion for a period of time increasing with the duration of the old empire plan, the size of your empire, and the level of the changed effect."

Of course, "Changing the Empire Plan causes 1 turn of rebellion" would be straightforward, but nowhere near enough to stop frequent changes.

I think the use of influence is meant to be "different" from the usual civ-style gold upkeep and anarchy period to switch civics.

Still, having this 20-year cycle leads to the boring, predictable and tedious task of amassing influence to seize the best bonuses to the plan... so something needs to be done, still I'd like to see something different that the n-th copy of civilization civics system.



These aren't cultural traits, these are some kind of government plan, so maybe every 10-20 turns I just select the addresses without spending any influence nor getting any bonus, but then I can spend influence to pass "imperial edicts".

Obviously they can't be 20-turns edicts, there may be 1/2/5/10/15/25-turns edicts.

The more influence I spend, the more powerful the edict, and the more turns it can't be repurchased: I'm thinking not only of long-term edicts, but also of "emergency" edicts that lasts few turns or are istantaneous, but then can't be used for the next few/lot of turns... a couple of lvl 4 military examples: a massive 1-turn unit draft, A 25-turn 50% unit upgrade discount.

Planning should happen by spending 4 points instead of influence... 4 points means that I can have 4 points on military, or 2/2 or 3/1 in military and science, or 1 for each area. Levels would allow the use of different edicts - they may even be multi-area edicts, but we are already endangering too much the game balance, and that's why there shouldn't be too many edicts available and/or active at the same time.

well i like the idea of changing the system to an "Influence upkeep" based one - i also would really like if we could be more selective about the boni we want i'd generally appreciate more freedom of choice.



(1). I like the Idea of having up to ~10 perks per section the more perks the better how about:

- 6 for era progression (1 for each era)

- 2 that will first have to be researched (thus they also could be quest rewards)

- 2 individually tailored for each faction (availability of these 2 individual Boni could be based, Era, Science upgrades. questprogress a mixture of these or whatever you deem necessary to maintain balance.

- there could also be Wildcard Influence Boni which are only available if you are in posession of a certain wonder like tree of life or some such.



(2) The Influence Upkeep system should be organized in a way that makes you specialize and stick to your choices - or at least gives you incentive to stick to a political decision over another. you would have to pay for each bonus each turn (of course at lower prices.)



to discourage excessive swapping, each perk would take ~5 turns to go into power and would take ~15 turns to to turn off - additionally you cannot turn on a boni for ~ 20 additional turns once it switches into the off mode.



This system would also Invite the opportunity to create science tech or racial traits which reduce these turn restrictions - which would make a for more tactical/political freedom as a tangible playstylechoice.





(3) rewarding specialization.



I agree that it should not be a necessity to get all perks in a section to receive a particular perk that you really want. but wouldn't it be interesting if you would also receive a Bonus when you have many perks of a section ?



and isnt it kinda Interesting that "Military" - "Empire / Expansion" and "Economy and Population" - "Science and Industry" could be regarded as polar opposites or rather a conflict in interest ?



*Military party of a faction want to overpower and protect by force - they want to conquer and assimilate.

*Empire / Expansion advocates of a faction want to stretch out their roots as far as they can and exploit whatever ressources they can get their hands on - fighting represents a waste of res sources to this political order.



*Economy and Population could be described as the right winged conservative plebeians who want to accumulate personal wealth in the short term.

*Science and Industry on the other hand could be described as somewhat liberal aristrocrats (?) they crave knowledge and technological advancement possibly at great cost



Investing into one should give you a Influence cost price reduction in that section - while also increasing the price of the perks in the polar opposite. eg.



1 perk in military grants 3% Influence price reduction for all perks in the military section

while also increasing cost for all perks in the polar opposite Empire and Expansion by 5%.



that means that if you invest into 2 polar opposites at the same time you will have to stomach higher influence cost

(politically more diverse & less unified - which is represented in overall higher influence cost)



so if you have 10 perks in military and 10 perks in expansion / empire you will have a total penalty of 20% increased influence point costs to both.



the same interaction could be applied to "economy / population" and "Science and Industry"



A system like this would give you great sense of direction in the early game. you could either specialize into 2 of the 4 poltical directions and thus ignore the penalty costs on the polar opposites or you could spread yourself thin on all the section and avoid excessive penalties and enjoy a greater flexibility.



and in late game - when more influence points tech is available you will have a great way of spending all your points, despite heavy penalties.



a system like that might necessitate decimals for the influence resource - but i don't think that this is a serious issue.







what do you think about my concepts ?

I really like the 20 turn timing. Specifically because it forces you to plan timing windows. Getting down into tier 3, a lot of the abilities are "winter/summer dependent". Because winter is random, you get the "will this be worth it" issues.

I'm a builder style player as will be obvious from below, but the timings on the influence track are actually fairly nice.



Benchmarking expenditures influence gain over time, at 20 turns, I am usually floating at around 30 influence. So I can pick 2 options - or assimilate a minor faction. Typically, I pick 2 options cash and science.

My goal is then to amass a enough influence to get both of those options again at 40 AND grab my first minor faction.

60 is rough. Typically, I hit a new Science Era about every 50 turns. Having 2-3 cities means I usually don't hit the influence level to "get everything". My typical goal is the 25% building cost reduction and the base science bonus, but if I didn't settle on happiness anomalies, I need the +25 happiness.

80 I'm settling in, I probably have a 4th city, and I typically (with some influence rushing) can afford to get 2 level 2's and maybe a third. I don't have roads at this point, and with a spread empire + 4 movement is incredible.

With turn 100, I should be closing on tier 3 techs, and needing more influence than I can possible produce to get everything.

By turn 140, I should have another timing of getting everything, and again at 180.



Now, your timing windows may vary (and they do by faction) and your influence total will be influenced by your priorities, but in general, I really like the "disruption" stage you hit with every new tech level. I also feel like the scaling for influence per number of cities works reasonably well.





The broken lords don't hit this kind of timing window, but I think that has more to do with the fact that they are not balanced yet. The new population cost for broken lords appears to be out of line once you have multiple cities, relative to what most factions can do with food and the necrophages can do with corpses.

I'd actually be perfectly fine with the 20 turn timer if they made one or two minor changes.

1.) Provide some lore-based explanation for the 20 turn timer so it doesn't feel like an arbitrary number. For all I care, they could just say "One turn represents one month, and Aurigan years have 20 months," just somehow present a reason behind the timer.

2.) Possibly move where the timer is defined. Right now, it's defined in the registry.xml along with a number of other game settings. I feel like that might allow game settings to change that period, but implementing any technology that changes the period would be difficult, though that would be a really interesting choice: Research +10 turns duration for better influence efficiency at less flexibility, or the other way around.



I considered experimenting with an "upkeep" system by setting the number of turns to 1 or 2 in the xml, but that would get really annoying with the need for confirmation.



My biggest gripe with the system is really that many of the bonuses don't feel interesting. I've been trying to think of more interesting bonuses that could be implemented using only the xml files, but I'm mostly drawing blanks. So far the only viable ideas I've had are:

• Each garrisoned unit provides a small bonus to approval.
• Each garrisoned unit increases Ownership Gain by 2% a turn. Cities are razed at double speed.
• Trade Routes provide Food or Industry.
  
  

Working only with XMLs, my best bet of coming up with something interesting is to connect two usually unrelated properties.

If anybody can think of more such bonuses that fit these categories, I might just throw together an xml file and post it for the devs to consider.