To my understanding block works for every attack. Long as your guys are the ones being attacked. It wont activated when your troops were the one who initiated the attack.

More customization is definitely needed. What we need is not pure passives with flat bonuses but reactive, situational passives. Lots of nice ideas on this thread.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
After finishing another game and tossing around some numbers, I have to agree that the bonuses to attack or defense are too easily stackable. Darjian's Stalwarts are a great example: At 77 Defense and 82 Health, they're probably near indestructible.

Furthermore, the balance of Iron versus other armor really is way off. A full set of tier 3 Iron armor rendered even my archers almost immune to damage from minor factions, and the AI had a hard time dealing with them (on normal difficulty.) Bonuses and penalties to Attack and Defense depending on difficulty level don't seem to work too well, either, as they can quickly render the player's units completely unable to damage AI and minor faction units. I'm sure a better player can find a way around that, though I imagine it would be tedious in any case.



Additionally, I found that the efficiency of my militia units actually diminished upon reaching era 4. With them clad in a full set of Tier 3 iron armor and sitting on 20-something defense, they could easily deal with any cheeky minor faction that would come to attack my cities (namely, the quest armies that spawned in my territories, probably from AI searching ruins.) When they switched to Tier 1 dust armor, even roughly 100 hitpoints where not enough to save them from being obliterated.





Seeing how the massive stat bonuses can be broken so easily, let's gather more ideas for unit capacities.

• Shock: Target suffers -1 morale for one turn
• Ferocity: Enemy units that begin/end their turn next to this unit suffer damage
• Death or Glory: unit receives morale bonuses for being adjacent to enemies
• Brace: unit receives bonus defense/damage reduction if it did not move
• Shield Ward: Adjacent friendly units take less damage from ranged attacks
• Living Armor/Weapon: bonus to defense/attack for every combat turn that passes
• Blind: The target unit can move and retaliate, but not attack for one turn
• Confusion: the target unit deals damage to a random adjacent allied unit on activation, then takes its turn as usual
• Thrown Weapon: Once per battle, the unit can make a ranged attack with 2 tiles range
• Shield Wall: adjacent friendly units receive a defense/damage reduction bonus
• Light-footed: Move through forests at a cost of 1 movement point instead of 2
  
  

Unfortunately, many of these in the end boil down to situational bonuses to attack or defense. However, depending on the execution of such abilities they may serve to give the same unit slightly different roles depending on the weapon it uses.

Furthermore, I've come to think that Regeneration and Retaliation would be fine abilities on support weapons if the equipped units could bestow those abilities on other friendly units by targeting them.

These are all great ideas, which will add depth to the combat system. Devs, it's all about providing options and variety. Otherwise it's bland and boring. Will you implement more of these special effects? How will you add depth and variet to the combat system?



Cheers

K__ wrote:
About two months ago I submitted a proposal that quest items should level up with Era, but the idea got no traction all.



This is a shame. I really feel like they are missing an opportunity to make quest items feel special. Right now, they are almost always items that I don't use because the stuff you get with tech is better.

I do know from other games that heavily rely on items, most of their early game special items are useless later on. However I say "most" which means not all of them. A few of them are designed in a way that they have a big value in the end game without creating an imbalance. Such a thing could be an alternative to having all quest items level up, just make a minority of them be as good during the later eras as they are in the early ones.

About two months ago I submitted a proposal that quest items should level up with Era, but the idea got no traction all.



This is a shame. I really feel like they are missing an opportunity to make quest items feel special. Right now, they are almost always items that I don't use because the stuff you get with tech is better.

That's an interesting observation, and I will have to keep my eyes out for that. This may well be a bug, with the retrofitted unit applying its level-up bonus to the old values before adding the new equipment bonus, and the new unit adding the equipment bonus first. Which can make a massive difference with percentage modifiers like the ones granted by leveling up units.



Speaking of leveling up, I think that the quest reward items available only to heroes should not only receive the same abilities as the basic items (or additional, unique abilities), but also scale their stat bonuses along with the hero's level. Otherwise, they quickly become obsolete.

Thank you for clarifying this

Deff need a little link or something to clear up all of the different modifiers

ALso something I have noticed was wondering if anyone else did.



When I upgrade the base units in the edit menu then go back and say I had 2 veteran units and a hero I retrofit them then produce a new unit of the edited base unit the edited base unit with a lower what to call it xp? level? has higher atk than the retrofited base units from the start of the game

and then i notice as the units progress the atk and def numbers vary GREATLY like by 5 points or more at even when they are the same level/xp

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:


Seeing how the massive stat bonuses can be broken so easily, let's gather more ideas for unit capacities.

• Shock: Target suffers -1 morale for one turn
• Ferocity: Enemy units that begin/end their turn next to this unit suffer damage
• Death or Glory: unit receives morale bonuses for being adjacent to enemies
• Brace: unit receives bonus defense/damage reduction if it did not move
• Shield Ward: Adjacent friendly units take less damage from ranged attacks
• Living Armor/Weapon: bonus to defense/attack for every combat turn that passes
• Blind: The target unit can move and retaliate, but not attack for one turn
• Confusion: the target unit deals damage to a random adjacent allied unit on activation, then takes its turn as usual
• Thrown Weapon: Once per battle, the unit can make a ranged attack with 2 tiles range
• Shield Wall: adjacent friendly units receive a defense/damage reduction bonus
• Light-footed: Move through forests at a cost of 1 movement point instead of 2
  
  

Unfortunately, many of these in the end boil down to situational bonuses to attack or defense. However, depending on the execution of such abilities they may serve to give the same unit slightly different roles depending on the weapon it uses.

Furthermore, I've come to think that Regeneration and Retaliation would be fine abilities on support weapons if the equipped units could bestow those abilities on other friendly units by targeting them.

Lots of great ideas here. Particularly like the ones that reward positional play/tactics like "Shield Wall", "Brace" and "Death or Glory". Stuff that gives you a substantial bonus, but you need to work a bit for it.

After finishing another game and tossing around some numbers, I have to agree that the bonuses to attack or defense are too easily stackable. Darjian's Stalwarts are a great example: At 77 Defense and 82 Health, they're probably near indestructible.

Furthermore, the balance of Iron versus other armor really is way off. A full set of tier 3 Iron armor rendered even my archers almost immune to damage from minor factions, and the AI had a hard time dealing with them (on normal difficulty.) Bonuses and penalties to Attack and Defense depending on difficulty level don't seem to work too well, either, as they can quickly render the player's units completely unable to damage AI and minor faction units. I'm sure a better player can find a way around that, though I imagine it would be tedious in any case.



Additionally, I found that the efficiency of my militia units actually diminished upon reaching era 4. With them clad in a full set of Tier 3 iron armor and sitting on 20-something defense, they could easily deal with any cheeky minor faction that would come to attack my cities (namely, the quest armies that spawned in my territories, probably from AI searching ruins.) When they switched to Tier 1 dust armor, even roughly 100 hitpoints where not enough to save them from being obliterated.





Seeing how the massive stat bonuses can be broken so easily, let's gather more ideas for unit capacities.

• Shock: Target suffers -1 morale for one turn
• Ferocity: Enemy units that begin/end their turn next to this unit suffer damage
• Death or Glory: unit receives morale bonuses for being adjacent to enemies
• Brace: unit receives bonus defense/damage reduction if it did not move
• Shield Ward: Adjacent friendly units take less damage from ranged attacks
• Living Armor/Weapon: bonus to defense/attack for every combat turn that passes
• Blind: The target unit can move and retaliate, but not attack for one turn
• Confusion: the target unit deals damage to a random adjacent allied unit on activation, then takes its turn as usual
• Thrown Weapon: Once per battle, the unit can make a ranged attack with 2 tiles range
• Shield Wall: adjacent friendly units receive a defense/damage reduction bonus
• Light-footed: Move through forests at a cost of 1 movement point instead of 2
  
  

Unfortunately, many of these in the end boil down to situational bonuses to attack or defense. However, depending on the execution of such abilities they may serve to give the same unit slightly different roles depending on the weapon it uses.

Furthermore, I've come to think that Regeneration and Retaliation would be fine abilities on support weapons if the equipped units could bestow those abilities on other friendly units by targeting them.

Given the massive changes to equipment in the 0.5.18 patch, I think a discussion of the good and the bad of these changes is in order. I've tried to list an overview of the changes at the bottom of this post, though I don't have exact values for all of them, and may have accidentally swapped a material here or there. (Edit: I've definitely swapped tat least Hyperium and Mythrite a few times. I'll check on that later and fix it.)



I think adding special abilities to weapons and armor in addition to the stat bonuses was a huge step forward in making unit customization interesting. These abilities are much harder to quantify and directly compare, so I rarely find myself thinking that one option is clearly better than another.

Different special abilities for different materials of weapon or torso armor also help against rendering one material completely obsolete, as does the rebalancing of the stat bonuses.

They may even allow for synergistic combinations in army composition. For example Dervishes with Hyperium hammer and Glassteel Armor to lower initiative and defense and set up targets for Kassai in Hyperium armor. Haven't tried that yet, though, since it's such a late game combination.

However, I think that some aspects can still be improved, mostly by adding or replacing abilities and some balancing work.

• The -slayer attributes are still not terribly interesting, though they can be very powerful.
• A one turn stun was poowerful on the Tenei Walkers. A two turn stun on hammers is definitely too much. I'd suggest a "Knockdown" ability that just reduces enemy movement to 0 or 1.
• Swords could give a "Parry" Free Retaliation, like the ability of the Bos Centaurs and Jotus Ettins.
• I'd still like to see a sort of "First Strike" or "Brace" ability for Spears, giving them beter retaliation.
• Sweep Strikeback is interesting, but I find it difficult to set up.
• Regeneration and Retaliation don't strike me as good abilities for support weapons. Something that gives penalties to the target unit may be better (for example -1/2/3 morale on hit).
• The Low Damage property on Wands, Scepters, and Staffs has really messed with the Ardent Mages' Zealots.
• Masters of the Dark and Children of the Light should be gained through faction traits rather than equipment, in my opinion.
• The torso armor abilities, while much more interesting than stat bonuses, may still be considered rather plain, especially since most of them show up on other items as well.
• Related: Some of the minor faction units feel very similar now: Urces and Harmonites, Kazanji and Haunts. The different weapon options set them apart a little, but different abilities would be nice to see.
  
  

All that said, I love what they've done so far, and hope they continue improving it. The basic structue in place now is worth building on.

Do you agree, and if so, what balancing changes would you suggest? If not, is there any system for interesting unit customization that you would rather see?



P.S. I still want to see one-handed spears so we can equip our Stalwarts the same way as in the artwork. For all I care, they can just use a scaled-down model of the two-handed spear for now.

P.P.S. Does anybody know if there's any sort of "spoiler" or other fold-out tag I could use to better organize this massive post? Tables don't seem to work, anyway. I might put the info in a googledocs file.







Weapons (Base)[/B]

• Sword, 1H: Bonus Defense, Warriorslayer 1-3 (+20/30/40% attack against Infantry)
• Sword, 2H: Bonus Defense, Warriorslayer 2-4 (+30/40/50% attack against Infantry)
• Axe, 1H: Bonus Initiative, Sweep 1-3 (attacks enemies adjacent to target, +50/75/100% damage)
• Axe, 2H: Bonus Initiative, Sweep 2-4 (attacks enemies adjacent to target, +75/100/125% damage)
• Hammer, 1H: Bonus Critical, Stun 1-3 (stuns for 2 rounds, +50/75/100% damage)
• Hammer, 2H Bonus Critical, Stun 2-4 (stuns for 2 rounds, +75/100/+125% damage)
• Spear: Bonus Defense and Initiative, Knightslayer 2-4 (+30/40/50% attack against Cavalry)
• Claws: Bonus Attack, Sweep Strikeback (damages enemies adjacent to attacker on retaliation)
• Shield: Bonus Defense, Block 1-3 (+2/4/8 Defense when defending)
• Crossbow: Bonus Critical, Point Blank Power 1-3 (+10/20/40% attack when attacking an adjacent target)
• Bow: Bonus Attack, Flyingslayer 2-4 (+30/40/50% attack against Ranged units)
• Wand: Bonus Initiative, Regeneration 1-3 (recover 2/4/8 health after each round), Low Damage 1-3 (-60/40/20% damage)
• Staff: Bonus Defense, Slowdown (target's movement reduced by half), Low Damage 1-3 (-60/40/20% damage)
• Scepter: Bonus Health, Retaliation 1-3 (+12/25/50% Critical when hit or defending for one round), Low Damage 1-3 (-60/40/20% damage)
  
  

Weapons[/B]

• Iron: Bonus to defense
• Titanium: Feeblesness 1-4 (-10/20/30/40% Critical on target)
• Glassteel: Halt 1-4 (-10/20/30/40% Initiative on target)
• Adamantian: Masters of the Dark 1-4 (+20/40/60/80% Attack and Defense in Winter)
• Palladian: Children of the Light 1-4 (+20/40/60/80% Attack and Defense in Summer)
• Hyperium: Exhaustion 1-4 (-10/20/30/40% Defense on target)
• Mythrite: Disease
• Dust: Life Drain 1-4 (1/2/4/8 health drained from target when attacking)
  
  

Armor[/B]

• Iron: Bonus to Defense
• Titanium: Block 2-4 (+4/8/12 Defense when defending)
• Glassteel: Intimidation Aura (-25% Initiative to adjacent enemies on attack and defense)
• Adamantian: Confidence 1-3 (+20/40/60% Defense against melee)
• Palladian: Sharp Sense 1-3 (+20/40/60% Defense against ranged)
• Hyperium: Swiftness 1-3 (+15/30/50% Attack if higher Initiative than target)
• Mythrite: Disease Immunity
• Dust: Regeneration 1-3 (recover 2/4/8 health after each round)
  
  

Rings[/B]

• Titanium: Improved Critical 1-3 (+10/20/30% Critical)
• Glassteel: Bonus to Defense and Initiative
• Adamantian: Improved Defense 1-3 (+10/20/30% Defense)
• Palladian: Improved Attack 1-3 (+10/20/30% Attack)
• Hyperium: Improved Movement 1-3 (+1/2/4 strategic movement, +1 Battle Movement, +3 Initiative)
• Mythrite: Bonus to Attack, Critical, Health, and Defense
• Dust: Improved Life 1-3 (+10/20/30% Health)
  
  

Amulets[/B]

• Titanium: Confidence 1-3 (+20/40/60% Defense against melee)
• Glassteel: Sharp Sense 1-3 (+20/40/60% Defense against ranged)
• Adamantian: Feebleness 1-3 (-10/20/30% Critical on target)
• Palladian: Regeneration 1-3 (recover 2/4/8 health after each round)
• Hyperium: Halt 1-3 (-10/20/30% Initiative on target)
• Mythrite: Exhaustion 1-3 (-10/20/30% Defense on target)
• Dust: Life Drain 1-3 (1/2/4 health drained from target when attacking)
  
  

Tome[/B]

• Titanium: +1/2/4 Science per Pop
• Glassteel: +1/2/4 Dust per Pop
• Adamantian: +1/2/4 Industry per Pop
• Palladian: +1/2/4 Food per Pop
• Hyperium: +2/4/8 Approval per garrisoned unit
• Mythrite: +2/4/8 Influence per hero level
• Dust: +30/55/80 XP at unit creation
  
  

Insignia[/B]

• Titanium: Army Critical Boost 1-3 (+1/3/5 Critical on units)
• Glassteel: Army Initiative Boost 1-3 (+2/4/6 Initiative on units)
• Adamantian: Army Defense Boost 1-3 (+1/2/3 Defense on units)
• Palladian: Army Attack Boost 1-3 (+2/4/6 Attack on units)
• Hyperium: Army Resistance Boost 1-3 (+3/6/9 Defense and Initiative on units)
• Mythrite: Army Piercing Boost 1-3 (+3/6/9 Attack and Critical on units)
• Dust: Army Health Boost 1-3 (+15/30/45 Health on units)
  
  

Material Stat Bonuses

• Titanium: Bonus Critical
• Glassteel: Bonus Initiative
• Adamantian: Small bonus to all stats
• Palladian: Bonus Attack
• Hyperium: Bonus Attack and Critical
• Mythrite: Bonus Defense and Health
• Dust: Bonus to Health
  
  

Does anyone know if Block works against Ranged attacks?

Because to me, it seems really strong and I tend to use Titanium Armor on everything who's Melee because of it, paired with the +x% defence accessories.

Looking at all of these I see +\- damage with different situational variations and a few initiative bonuses tossed in. Very bland and very little that adds tactical depth to combat.



Since items are the main way we can create variation in our forces it would be nice if the materials added more than damage modifiers. Hopefully additional combat effects will be introduced...



Iron items should never be better than items with strategic resource requirements in the same Era

not all items appear to be appropriately balanced in yet. They JUST did a pass on glassteel/titanium so that they weren't wrecking everyone. The first 2 ages appear to be the only balanced ages right now, and even than there are many quest items you can find that are inferior to iron right now.

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/562141472152853247/AECB49E8275A797686CD6B073D35751962FFFBCB/



Found a Tier 3 Adamantium/Palladian. They hit normally for 150 against T3 iron armor and twice the damage when crit. Didn't even know these items existed until now. Iron is superior than any item in the game until you find the Tier 3 rare stuff by CHANCE.

Meedoc wrote:
Hello,



Thank you for the feedback, just dropping a quick answer before leaving for the GamesCom:

• The low damage has been moved back to the support class instead of being on weapon types.
• We're going to keep refining the native ability (we'll replace Regeneration and Retaliation, add Range Slayer...)
• We're doing another tuning pass on the attributes, depending on the slot type and the material
  
  

Cheers,

One thing I've noticed is that iron being better has three downsides:



A lot of quest items are directly inferior to iron right now.

Damage in the early game gets way low, and units with low damage often hit for 0.

Minor factions and militia become very useless very quickly by the time full tier 3 full iron armored units are running around.

One issue that i'm seeing right now, is that the quest reward items completely lack any sort of special status, or ability. IE, a tier 2 quest reward claymore might have roughly similar stats to a tier 2 iron claymore, but will be lacking warrior slayer. Same with most other weapons i've seen, meaning they really only fill the role of budget weapon upgrade, until you can afford a proper upgrade. This seems a bit backward, shouldn't the ancient artifacts found in lost temples be more on the unique and useful side?

Hello,



Thank you for the feedback, just dropping a quick answer before leaving for the GamesCom:

• The low damage has been moved back to the support class instead of being on weapon types.
• We're going to keep refining the native ability (we'll replace Regeneration and Retaliation, add Range Slayer...)
• We're doing another tuning pass on the attributes, depending on the slot type and the material
  
  

Cheers,

Yeh, Ardent Mages basically can't fight Era 1 and Era 2 battles in higher-than-Normal difficulties because of the Low Damage quality on the Wand-users and other Argent Mage heroes.



The various AoE attacks on weapons does tend to make everything feel the same. The flying demon guys are particularly nasty with the double dose of AoE.



I'm not really sure if all of the flat bonuses to damage on so many things is a good idea overall. I understand that they are easy to code, but the difference in balance between someone stacking 2-3 +30% and someone who is not is pretty dramatic.