First, let's get something out of the way: I have not played the Kapaku extensively and thus dare not make any claims regarding concrete balance numbers.

With that out of the way, I want to say Volcanoformers (VFs from here on out) disappoint me. The trailer shows Auriga turning into a world of fire and I was hoping to turn my territory into Mordor soon. My first guess was, that the VFs would turn an entire region into Volcanic terrain after a long delay and at a considerable price. 

The actual feature however results in you only VFing your City tiles at most, as you don't need the different FIDSI on unworked tiles. And building a VF to make a tiny 7-Tile area outside the city where your units fight more effectively just isn't managable when the cost increases with every VF built.

So, why change the way it works?

- Atmosphere: It's way more awesome to step into Kapaku territory and immediately get those Mordor vibes because everything is volcanic.

- Army effects: If an enemy can just step 2 tiles away from a district to avoid any negative army effects for a fight with a Kapaku army and also deny them any buffs, the modifiers feel more like a defense building and less like a terrifying characteristic of Volcanic terrain. Campaigning into their territory should feel like you're reserves are running dry and your soldiers can't take the climate. Like the Germans in Russia during WW2.

- Also, as long as the cost increases accordingly, the end result won't be much different in terms of terrain output. Only the thematic Army effects actually coming into play would be new and could be compensated with another slight cost increase or a slight nerf to said effects.

How to make it fair?

- Make the process gradual, have the Volcanic terrain spread as long as the VF remains uninterrupted or until the region is filled out.

- Make it happen all at once, but after a long delay.

- Keep the starting cost but increase the cost escalation. That way it is still affordable early on, but reasonably more expensive later, as it will cover all your city's volcano needs in one go, no matter how much it grows.

I would love to hear everyone's feedback on this idea and their experience with Volcanoformers.

Hello.

Usefull topic. I agree with all what you say.

There is no "mordor effect". You don't see any volcano spree. In my imagination, I imagined the "inferno" as something dangerous, which could affect the entire world. I imagined volcanic and volcanos are a growing threat for the world, and for the others neigbouring region. But not at all.

You just need to plant a terraformer, wait few turns, plant your city. And make few others volcanoformers for the needed hexagone (like your golem camp). That's very pragmatic, nothing very fantasy.

The problem it's :

- It would require a lot of technical work to change how to works now.

- It whould require a rebalance work. Not so hard.

Propositions :

- And in my view, it's CLEAR that Kapaku should be able to create true volcanos, and then create lava rivers on the map ! Isn't their obvious project for Auriga ? Terraform it as their burning homeland ?

- In my opinion, there should be another kind of transformer : a volcano transformer. It takes off course more time to create, and more ressources, but then would create a massive volcanic area + 1 or 1 lava rivers.

- The volcano would take several turns to completely create volcanic land outside (like 15 turns in normal speed). Because the spreed is slow. During this time, the volcano should be vulnerable to an attack and would require units to protect it.

- The normal transformer should be usable only ONE TIME, on the city center, as a special action who require production. But you should not be able to cover with volcanic land the rest of the region, without a real volcanotransformer

Hey guys, thanks for your feedback.

Quick question: What is it you'd like to change about the VFs? Do you feel they are too Micro-Intensive? Or is that the "feel" of the effect is not satisfying?

We can focus on how you'd change the effect later, but for now I'd like to know what you'd like to achieve with the change.

kassapa wrote:

Hey guys, thanks for your feedback.

Quick question: What is it you'd like to change about the VFs? Do you feel they are too Micro-Intensive? Or is that the "feel" of the effect is not satisfying?

We can focus on how you'd change the effect later, but for now I'd like to know what you'd like to achieve with the change.

Micro-intensive ? Not at all. It's very simple to use. It's even too simple. You plant it and forget it.

Another thing it's you very rarely has to defend a volcanoformer. Even humans player do not care. Why ? :

- First, because they rarely saw one of them active (at early game and mid game, when there are few units on the map) as they quicly transform the land.

- Second, because when you use them to terrraform your new districts, you already got your city units at range, and your milicians, to defend it.

- Third, because who cares about few hexagones transformed in volcanic land ? I mean, it does not put in danger your own land. If the volcanic land would spread slowly (as I described in the suggestions) from a central point (a volcano), yes you could be incitated to attack the volcanotransformer, to prevent this "Mordor effect" spread.

shasho wrote:

[...] I think this would make volcanoforming a lot more dramatic for sure, seeing up to 19 or 37 tiles burned to ash in an instant. It would also make volcanoforming one's own territory, where the longer-fused volcanoformers can be easily defended, less micro-heavy, while still allowing for gaps of green land outside the volcanoformer radius that invaders could utilize if the Kapaku player doesn't find it worthwhile to patch them up. [...]

An interesting idea. However I see a problem in thin or irregularly shaped regions. Kapaku player would never see a reason to patch up those gaps. The gameplay benefit of having all your unworked terrain volcanic does exist, and would be nice to have but in no way justifies buying a VF for just that. That's why it would be nice if the unworked terrain was transformed as "collateral" to the city terraformation. That way, players wouldn't be crippling their economy for buying into this concept.

Let me know if I'm mistaken, but what I'm getting from you is two different, but related ideas:

1- VFs should be feel more powerful overall, as the 7-Hex area is underwhelming and does not live up to the fantasy of "Burning down the Planet"
2- VFs should provide better value as a long term investment that needs to be monitored rather than being "Fire and Forget"

Considering these two ideas, would you think the Fantasy of the tech is better served by having fewer, more powerful VFs with a higher cost?

This is is not necesarily Resources per VF, could also mean Dust Upkeep to keep a VF running, or other opportunity costs such as a cap on the max number of VFs you can have on the map at any given time. These are just ideas, of course, but I'm interested to see if I'm on the same page as you.

And again, thank you for your thoughts!

Alchemyst wrote:

An interesting idea. However I see a problem in thin or irregularly shaped regions. Kapaku player would never see a reason to patch up those gaps. The gameplay benefit of having all your unworked terrain volcanic does exist, and would be nice to have but in no way justifies buying a VF for just that. That's why it would be nice if the unworked terrain was transformed as "collateral" to the city terraformation. That way, players wouldn't be crippling their economy for buying into this concept.

Putting aside the cost, would larger-radius volcanoformers "feel" more satisfying to use? Perhaps the resource cost could be adjusted as well. I don't have an opinion on them yet, so I'm just trying to give some food for thought. Here's the reasoning behind my idea - if it's not the ideal solution, at least the concept might be helpful:

- It's simple. Being able to stack volcanoformers into a higher powered one wouldn't require any "new" mechanics, only the addition of higher level volcanoformers modified from existing values. I initially thought of having stronger volcanoformers depending on the strategic used, but that would require new stocks, new UI elements, etc.

- It keeps control in the hands of the player. It still requires the player to decide where they want to expand and be proactive about volcanoforming. Allowing for passive volcanoformation from cities would detract from the intentionality of gameplay.

-It opens up more gameplay choices. I like the idea of being able to select the strength of the volcanoformer as desired, depending on resource stocks and time constraints.

-It's (hopefully) more fantastical and dramatic.

Abrasax wrote:

From Patch Notes 1.6.4

CHANGE [INFERNO]

• Increased the Resource Cost Cap for Volcanoformers from 16 at 7 to 998 at 498.

They got so much strategic on end game I was always at 999 for the 4 fisrt strategic ressource (+ 5 / strategic on Volcanic region is really powerfull), it's a logical short term fix.

I agree it's a little frustrating to not be able to grow volcano (with lava river !) as I imagine first. But terraforming is irreversible, so he don't have to push too far too fast.
I don't try to play it in MP or vs hardly IA,  so I will not make my decision right away, but until now the concept please me ^^

Regards,

Elphealer

Elphealer wrote:

Abrasax wrote:

From Patch Notes 1.6.4

CHANGE [INFERNO]

• Increased the Resource Cost Cap for Volcanoformers from 16 at 7 to 998 at 498.

They got so much strategic on end game I was always at 999 for the 4 fisrt strategic ressource (+ 5 / strategic on Volcanic region is really powerfull), it's a logical short term fix.

I agree it's a little frustrating to not be able to grow volcano (with lava river !) as I imagine first. But terraforming is irreversible, so he don't have to push too far too fast.
I don't try to play it in MP or vs hardly IA,  so I will not make my decision right away, but until now the concept please me ^^

Regards,

Elphealer

Play with Hard World Settings and you will change your tune. Even with +5 on Strategics, you will never see anything close to max. I shouldn't have to play on more abundant resource settings just to play Kapaku reasonably.

Having two types for Volcanoformers might get ugly UI wise and hard to implement, I suggest instead (A hopefully easier to implement idea) that Volcanoformers can become more powerful over time, so instead of fire and forget; A placed Volcanoformer does as it normally does at first 7 hexes of terraforming after the normal amount of time but after it’s done it does not disappear it stays on the map where an army can then top it up (or dismantle it if wanted) with (potentially higher tier?) strategies to make it run again but now it will terraform the 12 hexes around the first 7 (And possibly take twice as long?) and that can be done again with increasing time & cost doing the next 18 hexes. Etc. to a certain limit perhaps a radius of 5 for a total of 91 hexes (7, +12, +18, +24, +30)

Each reuse of a Volcanoformer could require unlocking a new era, (i.e. you can only start using Volcanoformers in era 2, reusing them a second time in era 3 etc.) which would further alter the aspect of defending them as it’s no longer for a few turns but possibly for the most the game as you wait to use them at their most powerful point.

And perhaps if it's possible tie it in with Jojo_Fr’s idea and spawn a volcano & lava river at its position as the final reuse (destroying the Volcanoformer).

Also, to continue on making them more necessary to defend how I do agree about them having a nice reward for an empire dismantling them, e.g. an industry stockpile (that may be a bit strong) or some science bonus & industry bonus if a city in the region is owned or as already suggested a cut of the strategic cost to make it. This ties in the first idea with them not disappearing after use and they would also have bigger rewards the more times they have been reused.

- I agree. Two volcanos formers would be a bad thing. The idea I suggested is simply to have one terraformer type, but to put a city action in Kapaku cities, which long last 3 turn, and terraform for a small cost (3 strategic ressources and 30 dust for exemple), the 7 hexagones. It would works only in the city core. 

- Your idea to increase the power and range of terraformer with the Eras is good, but the problem I am seing it's that would not make viable any agressive strategy with volcanoformation in early/mid game. Early agression are already rares in Endles Legend, we need stimulation to that.

Yet, if you have to be very close to a rival city to use your terraformer, you will be at range of his milicias defender, and units. All the idea it's to be slihtly out of range of the city (maximum 7 hexagones at distance).

Yet, if you have to be Era III or Era IV to be out of range, any early "volcanic spreading agression" is simply non viable in my opinion.

In Endless Legend, some strategy are theoriquely viables but in practic not because of few technical limitation. For exemple, Pillaging NEVER HAPPENED with another race than the forgottens (and it's sad because this feature is great). And it's even rare to see with Forgottens, because Forgottens are too slow to do it with early units. And because if you got the military domination it's simplier and more efficient to directly attack the city...

- Your idea of giving one industrie stockpile, or the strategic ressources, is very good. We need more stimulation and incentive against the Kapaku's evil spreading ^^

I think VFs are fine in how they are dropped and cost wise.

However I do agree in some way of growing the and terraforming the areas.

A suggestion would be to start the VFs at 7 as they are but volcanise adjacent tiles for every level 2 district. This way resources are naturally bound to the size of the volcanic areas. It ballances the risk reward for other players attacking Kapaku cities and you would get the feeling of terraforming as time passes by just growing taller cities.

The latest change to VF cost didn't really help with the fantasy of turning the planet into a volcanic ashland. 

I suggest this: give Kapaku units the ability to add more fuel to VFs. Refueled VFs would start volcanoforming a larger area when the initial 7 Hexes are volcanoformed.

This way the VFs could be used in two ways:

- small area fire-and-forget volcanoformation

- larger area volcanoformation that requires more time and attention

This would make it more viable to VF large areas while adding a minimum amount of complexity. More importantly, it would also make using VFs more memorable and reinforce the fantasy of doing something irreversible to the planet filled with other peoples.

Also the increased time required to use the larger area volcanoformation by keeping the VF running could give opponents a change to intervene, while the Kapaku units could serve a double purpose of refueling and defending the VF.

I agree that VFs should have a larger area. Even adding +1 range would be good. The cost should be adjusted accordingly.

But Kapaku controlled regions should also very slowly spread volcanic terrain in them so eventually the small patches that are not worth wasting VFs on will also be converted. 

So, just jumping into this discussion really late with a somewhat unrelated topic - 

In one of the Kapaku quest chapters, the narrator mentions that the waters of their homeworld were some sort of greenish color, and that the shining blue waters of Auriga were reminiscent of the disastrous change wrought on their homeworld by the terraforming robots (the description felt very similar to the Riftborn narrator's description of the natural imagery of Vanguard in ES2).

Anyways, when I volcanoformed the coastal terrain of one of my regions I was excited to see that greenish color, but all I got was a darker blue, which was barely distinguishable from the normal color of the ocean. Would it be possible to change the colors of volcanoformed waters - rivers, lakes and oceans - into that greenish color, rather than the current dark blue? I understand that asking for a purely visual change is probably unrealistic, but it would both tie in nicely to the descriptions given by the Kapaku of what their world looks like, and also visually differentiate volcanoformed waters from standard Aurigan water.

Blandersnatching wrote:

So, just jumping into this discussion really late with a somewhat unrelated topic - 

In one of the Kapaku quest chapters, the narrator mentions that the waters of their homeworld were some sort of greenish color, and that the shining blue waters of Auriga were reminiscent of the disastrous change wrought on their homeworld by the terraforming robots (the description felt very similar to the Riftborn narrator's description of the natural imagery of Vanguard in ES2).

Anyways, when I volcanoformed the coastal terrain of one of my regions I was excited to see that greenish color, but all I got was a darker blue, which was barely distinguishable from the normal color of the ocean. Would it be possible to change the colors of volcanoformed waters - rivers, lakes and oceans - into that greenish color, rather than the current dark blue? I understand that asking for a purely visual change is probably unrealistic, but it would both tie in nicely to the descriptions given by the Kapaku of what their world looks like, and also visually differentiate volcanoformed waters from standard Aurigan water.

Would be a welcome change. Also, it is almost impossible for me to discern the difference between volcanic waters and standard waters in the winter and during dust eclipses, but I am not sure if my color-blindness is to blame or if it is just that much of a change from summer.

I know nothing, so I'm going to join :)

I haven't already played with Inferno, but after watching ~30 turns as Kapaku on YT and reading your discussion I came up with a bit different approach.

In lore, volcanoformers are the Endless' devices powered by strategic resources. They (resources) seem to work as fuel, so why not use them in that way?

In short:
- VF's are built in the cities with production and put down by armies
- After this, you can spend some strategics to turn on the machine (maybe via some special interface)
- VF slowly burns the resources you put into it, generating volcanoformation points (something like the Necrophages' recycling bar). When it's full, it creates volcanic terrain first on those 7 tiles, then on surroundings. Each level requires more VF points and each strategic resource can create only a certain amount of them per usage.
- VF is, of course, reusable. It sits in place, waiting for the fuel. It can be disassembled and it returns to your reserves.

Pros:
- removes the ,,fire and forget" effect
- makes them more powerful in long term while maintaining the ability of using them for quick expansion
- deals with the increased cost issue quite neatly (I think)

Cons:
- may be difficult to implement
- constant refueling of VF's may become a bit of a chore, I admit.

Throwing in my thoughts. Volcanoforming is boring.

• Volcanoforming doesn't create lava or flames of any kind, just plain grey land. No reds or oranges, just grey, 100% of the time. The process of volcanoforming does not actually form volcanoes! 
• Volcanoforming doesn't affect water at all. It might change the tint of it a little, but rivers keep flowing, lakes stay as they are, nothing really happens. You'd think lakes would drain and rivers would fill with lava or something, but no. I guess there was lots of crystal-clear water on the Konpaku homeworld. who knew?
• Volcanoforming doesn't effect anomalies at all, which invariably looks terrible. Life trees standing proud in lifeless wastelands, escaped specimens prancing around like this is still livable land, how the hell do volcanoformers scorch the land and not effect these things at all? Entire forests get burnt, but that one massive tree? No way, can't touch that.
• Volcanoforming doesn't spread across the land as depicted in the lore. Now yes, you could plant volcanoformers all over your territory, but you won't, that's way to costly and hardly benefits you at all. 9 times out of 10 the Konpaku will rule not a firey inferno, but a bunch of regular territory with some grey crap around their cities. It looks really, really bad and completely clashes with what the fluff says they're doing.
• Volcanoforming is a silly name.

I feel this sort of things needs to be addressed more than the mechanics of volcanoformers. Reworking them to something that gradiaully spreads the more fuel your throw into the fire is pointless if all it does is make everything grey. Less ash, more lava, give me my promissed Inferno!

kassapa wrote:

Hey guys, thanks for your feedback.

Quick question: What is it you'd like to change about the VFs? Do you feel they are too Micro-Intensive? Or is that the "feel" of the effect is not satisfying?

We can focus on how you'd change the effect later, but for now I'd like to know what you'd like to achieve with the change.

the problem with the volcanoformers is, that if you make them more dramatic and or threatning, your going to have to tone down the kapaku down some other way, they are incredibly strong and they have not been touched since release, unless I missed a patch.

Yes. A serious rebalance is needed.

I would prefer to have stronger volcanoformation effetes, and a more intense weakness of Kapaku outside volcanos land or in winter, than keeping the actual system.

I mean, the Kapaku are so overpowered than we simply BAN them in multiplayer. The fact that we banish our new faction is a serious situation !