While the idea of the ability is fine, its current iteration is almost never useful. At Level 2 it gives a base amount of 50 dust (+/- some random noise) + 5 % of the other empires dust stock value. Higher levels even REDUCE the base amount of dust (why?) and increase the percentage amount to 10 and 15% respectively. When could this be useful? In the early games, other empires typically have 1000 dust AT BEST. So youll steal 150-200 dust in a best case scenario with infiltration level 4. Keep in mind you could also steal a technology, that by this point typically costs more to buy. 

In the late game on the other hand, when other empires MAY have several 10k of dust, it still isnt that great. Techs now also cost thousands, and even if you  manage to steal 10k dust from someone who somehow hasnt won dust victory yet, it is likely that you earn enough dust that 10k isnt that much in the grand scale of things.

The general problem is, that dust stealing has to compete with technology stealing (which essentially is dust stealing). You also cant make it too good, so it doesnt outright cripple an adversary. So how would you improve this ability, make it more interesting and powerful without being over the top?

Here is my suggestion: Make it a "per round leech effect". Using this action steals a set amount of money from the targeted empire permanently. It should be infiltration level 5 only and can only be used once per empire. The amount stolen shouldnt be too high, make it 10 or 20 dust per round. The idea is, that its a longterm benefit for you, and a "mildly crippling effect" for the enemy. The other empire also should have the opportunity to ask for a removal of the effect via diplomacy (similar to market bans).

So what do you think? I'm sure there are other better suggestions out there.

This feature look interesting in theory, but it's completley useless in practice for one reason :

1. Empires tend to use a lot his dust. At max, you can have 350 dust if you want to be ready to buy the new heros in the market.

But without this exception, you will just use your dust each turn, to buy new buildings, and these things will give you more dust/science/etc. the next turn etc.

2. When you steal dust, you don't know how many you will steal. I tried with a level 4 of seniority and won 80 dust. Lol that's nothing.

If you compare to tech stealing, in tech stealing you know what you get, you pick the tech, and this tech worth A LOT MORE than this low amount of dust.

In my opinion this feature should be changed. I don't know by what. Maybe :

- The calculated stolen dust is not FROM THE BANKED dust, but from the EARNED DUST EACH TURN. With this feature, it would be much more usefull.

For exemple, you can steal (or let's say secretly hijack 30/40/50 % of the earned dust per turn of one empire. The hijack long last two turns, not one).

I think it would make this powerfull against the dust productor empires (like the broken lords) but less effective against more industry focused empire.

Well, I'm agree it's a really small amount. But I just warn you for some points :

• Don't forget dust you stole is not only gain to you, is also lost for your opponent. Like Fortress which leech dust and influence, they have been adjust because they stole too much amounts of each.
• You can't compare amount of dust with the price of technology. Dust is more polyvalent. (And you don't have any technology you want with the action "steal technology" : only one of the already search by the other empire)

In my opinion, 30-50 % of the amount of dust produce each turn is really hight. What's happend if the empire get attack twice with this effects ? and three times ?

Yes, but it does not matter if this amount is stolen, since it will be low. No player keeps more than 300 coins in the bank except for late game.

Yet stealing 50 % of 300 dust is 150, which is nothing !

Stealing technology is at least stealing 300 dust in era II. And In Era III and more, it's MUCH MORE.

The Eclypse is a rare event and it should bring a great benefit to the Forgottens, who have no combat bonuses (like Ardent Magi), no movement bonus (such as Allayis, Morgawrs or Wild Walkers).

Their existing bonus is simply NULL. It is non-existent.

But with an adjustment of their "dust stealing" it may be useful.

 it must be remembered that the amount stolen is low since there is no point in banking more than 300 dust say.

- No, 30-50% of the dust produced each turn is not a lot. In early-mid game it will not do much. It must be that it represents more than the price of a technology, otherwise it is useless!

- I do not know if the devs will do anything, I hope so. The Forgottens are a race that struggles economically to be competitive, they really have to have a significant dust bonus during the Eclypse !

Jojo_Fr wrote:

It must be that it represents more than the price of a technology, otherwise it is useless!

It's fun, because I think the exact opposit. If the amount of dust is highter than the price of the technology then the action "steal technology" will be obsolete ?

Jojo_Fr wrote:
For exemple, you can steal (or let's say secretly hijack 30/40/50 % of the earned dust per turn of one empire. The hijack long last two turns, not one). 

When I lost 50% of my dust earned, I'm hurted Oo . And what's happeing if a second player do the same action, I lost 100% of my dust for two turns ?

Maybe the amount of dust lost could not be scaled with the amount of dust gained ?

It could be a percent of the dust stock which be lost, and you gain a fix amount of dust in your side ?

It's fun, because I think the exact opposit. If the amount of dust is highter than the price of the technology then the action "steal technology" will be obsolete ?

Yes it will. And it should. And it's normal, because stealing dust should be a rare action. You need :

- Being in Eclypse (rare and short).

- Having infiltrated one hero (expansive).

- Being infiltrated at level 3 minimum. This needs time and as you can't anticipate Eclypse, you can't really planify it.

Keep in minde that several others factions have powerfull features which needs nothing special (no infiltration, on spy buyed etc). Morgawr has a +4 movement on Sea. It's purely a free bonus they will ALWAYS exploit.

On the contrary, forgottens have nothing but this only dust stealing action. If it's nothing something which is really interesting, players will never use it.

- About the -50 % dust earned per turn (at level 5, very advanced), yes can cumulate it with another player potentially and have then -100 %. Then what ? The infltrated player will loose all this dust earned during 2 turns. Not the end of his empire.

He can still sold units, sold luxuries, if needed.

And Keep in mind that this -50 % for two turns is usefull but not so much if you compare it to the difficulty to have reached this high infiltration level, the time it required to you, and the others action you could do in place of this dust stealing (like fortification destruction, governor stealing, tech stealing or reducing the industry produciton to ZERO for 3 turns).

Just a random thought:

I was always a bit unsatisfied with the economic victory condition since it basically requires no "sacrifice" from the factions pursuing it (you earn dust and can use it for buildings or an army while getting closer to victory). For a long time I have the plan to modify the victory condition to actually require a specific amount of dust STORED instead of just having it earned over the course of the game. Interestingly enough this would also massively improve this infiltration action in its current state, since now you have a roving clans or broken lord player sitting on 200k dust in your game. so it would basically solve two issues at once.

Maybe I should push myself to actually implement the changed winning condition. It was mainly the AI not being able to handle it, what kept me from it (since I would have to program a new victory condition focussed AI layer, which sounds like a lot of work ^^).

I wonder if Influence Stealing would be more useful and more of a tactical sabotage than Dust Stealing. Pop this infiltration action right before an empire plan and see what happens ...

I think it will be illogical. Influence measures the degree of national readiness for the implementation of political plans. It is not a resource that can be stolen.

So, the primary difficulty with the stealing Dust capability is that it is an action that can only occur in a very specific set of circumstances and doesn't balance risk against reward. 

As it stands right now, a Forgotten player is incapable of seeing how much Dust has been banked by an infiltrated empire. This makes the action unpredictable. This is further exacerbated by the fact that a good player is going to be using their Dust regularly and not have a lot of banked Dust because banked Dust is just a wasted resource. 

The other problem you run into is the risk against reward. Even if all of the requirements to use this action are met, without knowing how much Dust you're going to be stealing, not just in terms of how much you gain but also what percentage of the target's Dust economy you're hitting, you can't tell if this action is actually an effective use of your infiltration. If I initiate the Steal Dust action and get 3000 Dust but my opponent is generating 25,000 a turn then I've accomplished basically nothing, wasted my infiltration level, exposed the presence of a spy in the target empire, risked injury or capture and have to reset my infiltration. During this I also gain little-to-no knowledge of my target since I can't see their Dust income or bank. 

Compare this to a level 3 Steal Technology action and you gain more than a technology bonus. You learn a lot from this one action, I know what researches my target has, I gain a general idea of how fast they're gaining new technologies based on the amount of time passed and what technologies are available for me to steal, I can determine what general priorities my target has with their research (military, economy, science, influence, expansion, etc). I can do this action at any time. 

At the end of the day the return isn't worth the investment, there are many more effective and informative actions to take and they're available at all times. Having the ability adjusted so that during an Eclipse an infiltrated empire's Dust economy is visible or you automatically leech a percentage of Dust from all infiltrated empires without having to use an action (this would put the ability on par with the automatic abilities of other empires) or make it a flat percentage of the target's Dust income per turn...something that reveals more information and/or provides a passive, automatic ability will make the ability not only more effective as a whole but make it a more worthwhile investment of my infiltration. 

Witness41920 wrote:

So, the primary difficulty with the stealing Dust capability is that it is an action that can only occur in a very specific set of circumstances and doesn't balance risk against reward. 

As it stands right now, a Forgotten player is incapable of seeing how much Dust has been banked by an infiltrated empire. This makes the action unpredictable. This is further exacerbated by the fact that a good player is going to be using their Dust regularly and not have a lot of banked Dust because banked Dust is just a wasted resource. 

The other problem you run into is the risk against reward. Even if all of the requirements to use this action are met, without knowing how much Dust you're going to be stealing, not just in terms of how much you gain but also what percentage of the target's Dust economy you're hitting, you can't tell if this action is actually an effective use of your infiltration. If I initiate the Steal Dust action and get 3000 Dust but my opponent is generating 25,000 a turn then I've accomplished basically nothing, wasted my infiltration level, exposed the presence of a spy in the target empire, risked injury or capture and have to reset my infiltration. During this I also gain little-to-no knowledge of my target since I can't see their Dust income or bank. 

Compare this to a level 3 Steal Technology action and you gain more than a technology bonus. You learn a lot from this one action, I know what researches my target has, I gain a general idea of how fast they're gaining new technologies based on the amount of time passed and what technologies are available for me to steal, I can determine what general priorities my target has with their research (military, economy, science, influence, expansion, etc). I can do this action at any time. 

At the end of the day the return isn't worth the investment, there are many more effective and informative actions to take and they're available at all times. Having the ability adjusted so that during an Eclipse an infiltrated empire's Dust economy is visible or you automatically leech a percentage of Dust from all infiltrated empires without having to use an action (this would put the ability on par with the automatic abilities of other empires) or make it a flat percentage of the target's Dust income per turn...something that reveals more information and/or provides a passive, automatic ability will make the ability not only more effective as a whole but make it a more worthwhile investment of my infiltration. 

You can see the dust income of an empire in the status screen.

Jojo_Fr wrote:

I think it will be illogical. Influence measures the degree of national readiness for the implementation of political plans. It is not a resource that can be stolen.

The Center of Influence Facility disagrees with your assessment.

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:

Snipped my own post

You can see the dust income of an empire in the status screen.

You can? I just checked to try and find it and can't find it, that's news to me. 

Doesn't really change the situation though, the return doesn't equal in the investment. 

mamarider wrote:

Witness41920 wrote:

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:

Snipped my own post

You can see the dust income of an empire in the status screen.

You can? I just checked to try and find it and can't find it, that's news to me. 

Doesn't really change the situation though, the return doesn't equal in the investment. 

This is optional. You can turn this off and on in your game settings or make it partially visible (only if you have a spy in an empire's city).

I would assume if someone is thinking about whether or not to steal Dust from an empire, they already have an infiltrated spy.